[Serious] What have we learned from PPD?

Bonig · 2013-11-20T23:54:15+00:00

This is a follow up to "The Other Side", where we tried to find points of views we all share. Now I want to go one step further. What have we gained...

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First of all, abusers come in all shapes and sizes. Saying that his relationship is obviously not abusive because it doesn't act exactly the way you've seen other abusers act invalidates, well, most abuse victims.

Second, most abusers would come onto the internet to justify their abuse. Very few see what they're doing as "actual" abuse because people expect abuse to fit pre-ordained notions.

Third, my personal opinion on his relationship, not representative of TBP's:

It's unhealthy to give up your own agency and call the act of giving it up agency. It doesn't work that way; it's circular logic.
My biggest axe to grind with the situation is that TRP loves to hold it up as an example of TBP fighting against someone's relationship and saying it shows that TBP ignores what people want in favor of what they want, but if a man chooses to be in an equal relationship or in a dominating relationship with a woman, he's mocked or laughed at. (It's even happening in this thread.)
I, personally, find it very difficult to believe that someone would honestly believe that giving up their personal choices makes them happier, and would be more likely to believe that they're mentally ill and feel that they can't control themselves.

Also, the final paragraph is nothing but a strawman argument.

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In my experience TPE is used to describe a power relation and not a purely sexual preference. But this doesn't mean that the bdsm/sexual aspect may not be there as well.

I guess this is where we disagree; that's what I was confused about. I mean, a TRP relationship could have a femdom/male sub dynamic, since the bedroom is separate from the actual relationship dynamics in most cases. So it seems more to me that the TPE couples you've met at munches have been BDSM couples with a TRP relationship.

I do understand where you're coming from; I'm hesitant to label TRP an aspect of BDSM (does that make sense? I don't want to say that BDSM encompasses red pill as well) because many BDSM couples are feminists, or Republicans, or whatever -- I don't think it's safe to say that a kink includes a political ideology within its framework because sexuality is so detached from pretty much everything about an individual.

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You are complaining that Blue Pillers believe that women who wish to be submissive in relationships, rejecting "feminist" relationships ideals are not exercising agency, and are being controlled by an abuser, by saying Blue Pillers are not exercising agency because they have been brainwashed by feminism, and deep down really want to a Red Pill relationship. Give me a break. You spend four paragraphs essentially saying "I know you are but what am I?"

Next, many RP contributors do indeed advocate abuse. First of all there is the famous "No such thing as spousal rape" debacle. There are many Red Pillers who believe in "domestic discipline," which is a nice little term for beating your spouse when they misbehave. An endorsed contributor has written about how he does not allow his girlfriend to work, even though she wants a job, and how he tightly controls her interaction with others, including her family. He says he knows she is miserable, but doesn't care because he knows she won't leave him. And yet they both make Youtube videos where she is grinning like a buffoon, singing the praises of her Red Pill relationship. So no, it is not unreasonable for Blue Pillers to be weary of abuse with some of the aspects OP has described of his relationship.

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I don't think the particular relationship this person has seems abusive in the slightest. My big problem is that he seems to think this particular relationship model is right for all couples (he said in another thread that he doesn't believe women can be dominant in healthy relationships).

The whole 'treat women like children' thing has always been a major sticking point with why I can't agree with TRP...as a physically disabled woman who has been unwillingly 'babied' all her life and has dedicated a large amount of effort towards self-improvement in order to be taken seriously as a functioning adult, I would find the 'parent-child' dynamic a lot of red pillers talk about incredibly demeaning. I'm not saying it's inherently demeaning, but it would be demeaning to me, so I take issue with anyone that thinks all women secretly want this relationship dynamic, or anyone who thinks that women who react poorly to it have just been brainwashed by feminism and are in denial of the truth of gender roles.

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I don't know you, and I know your wife even less. My own relationship mirrors yours to some extent. I have social anxiety, and my boyfriend takes pride in "protecting" me by talking to waiters and secretaries. It makes him feel like a provider, and it makes me feel loved and cared for. IMO there's nothing wrong with a traditional relationship as long as both parties are happy.

An almost fundamental aspect of RP theory is that women don't know what makes them happy, and that (red pill) men know better. There's an ongoing theme in RP theory that you can't trust women, particularly when it comes to their desires. Things like, "her saying no at the last minute is just LMR, power through and she'll go nuts", and "women say they want a nice guy, women say they want equality, but they don't". There's even a word for this ~bad female logic~, "hamstering".

All of this makes it very hard to discern whether an RPer's girlfriend/wife/"plate" is actually happy, or if he's decided for her that she's happy.

But like I said, I'm 0% capable of judging your relationship. If you two are happy, I hope you stay happy for the rest of your lives! I, personally, find happiness in a different kind of relationship. To me, alpha dominance is a total turn off but a guy talking about feminism gets me hot n bothered.

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If I offered a 'safeword,' they'd only find some other reason to find fault.

A 'safeword' just wouldn't be appropriate anyway. The whole purpose is that ultimate decision making for many (not all) things is handed over to me. If she could just opt out of everything, then the dynamic would fall apart.

She is sometimes disgruntled about a decision I made in the moment, but comes to realise that it was the right one with time. That's the reason we have the dynamic we do, because I take the long view, and she doesn't. If she could just 'safeword' out of it, it wouldn't work. There would be no long view.

I'll give you an example. She was supposed to meet a friend for lunch. She started bitching about this girl, about how she isn't really that pretty, she just spends a lot of money on clothes and makeup etc. She doesn't want to see her. This is ridiculous. They actually get on really well and like each other.

I told her that the conversation was over, that she wasn't to speak about her friend like that again. She had to go to the lunch, and if afterwards she decided that she really hates this girl, then it was ok, she didn't have to see her again, but I won't entertain bitchy conversations about someone who hasn't done anything wrong.

She went to the lunch and admitted to me later that night that I was right, she was just jealous and it wasn't acceptable. She had the option to come back and insist that she really did hate her, but didn't take it.

If there had been a safeword, none of that would have happened. the whole dynamic would have fallen apart.

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Yes. I saw. And responded to the more immediate, more interesting problem. Since it seems you want commentary though I'll offer thoughts:

Your example is not persuasive. It barely misses being completely unremarkable, and instead showcases exactly the problem TBP already identified.

Respectful deference is not unusual in relationships. Conflicts happen and get resolved. Commonplace. Any couple could have reached the same outcome as yours.

Except that you've withdrawn your partner's ability to have any input at all. What, exactly, would you have done had your partner "disobeyed" the edict? Or if your partner decided to leave the relationship entirely at that moment?

In my Just World mind, I imagine: you'd do nothing. This is an imaginary edict, a mutually self-imposed fantasy that enhances your relationship.

But you seem to believe it is real. So, yes, it is a problem. It is disrespectful for starters, but it is obviously abusive if you would act to prevent your partner for giving input or from leaving the relationship.

Relationships are consensual. Respectful deference is fine. Fantasies are fine. Actually, really denying someone's volition is not.

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Why should a relationship be centered around only one partner's needs? And fwiw, I didn't get that impression from him at all. I thought he seemed pretty concerned about his girlfriend's needs. I just thought his relationship dynamic was pretty damn unusual and definitely not generalizable to "male needs" and "female needs". Which he later admitted, but earlier in the thread he had been adamant that pretty much everyone would be better off if they did something like that.

He said his girlfriend gets an added sense of security from someone telling her what to eat (or having a curfew, or a set time when she can voice her concerns), and while calling it disordered thinking might have been a bit over the top, it's certainly not usual. Most adults make their own dietary choices without any issues and would consider having to ask for input from others only an added hassle.

If your partner is paralyzed from the waist down, then it's a good idea for you to help them move around in a wheelchair. If your partner is not paralyzed or otherwise disabled, then carting them around in a wheelchair is ridiculous. There's nothing wrong or abusive about having someone use a wheelchair if they need it. What people are taking exception to is the idea that everybody needs the wheelchair.

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I respectfully submit that we don't want it to be frighteningly so; some significant behaviors that have been described are on nearly every check list of warning signs of an abusive relationship. I considered linking a few such sources and lists, but seeing as a) I'm afraid those who disagree are going to dismiss the first two dozen sources as some sort of feminist propaganda, and b) given the latest controversy regarding sources I'm not quite sure what would be acceptable, I've just bookmarked a bunch of links for now.

I wholeheartedly agree that threats and doxing are inappropriate, and it is very unfortunate that some folks have taken that tact. A great many of us have said repeatedly that if he and his SO are happy, then good for them.

With that said, when someone's self-described behavior matches warning signs of abuse, is it wrong to point that this behavior is often described as a warning sign of abuse? There's a lot of other behavior projections made around here (for example, high sexual partner count being indicative of long term relationship potential).

[–]alphabetmodamused modstery5 points6 points7 points 12 years ago (12 children) | Copy Link

I considered linking a few such sources and lists, but seeing as a) I'm afraid those who disagree are going to dismiss the first two dozen sources as some sort of feminist propaganda, and b) given the latest controversy regarding sources I'm not quite sure what would be acceptable, I've just bookmarked a bunch of links for now.

For the record, if your comment replied to me I wouldn't dismiss any sources. I might criticize them, but I would read them if you took the time to link them. Also, no "sources" are "bad" sources. Contrary to what other users believe, if you think you have a relevant source go ahead and post it. The only ones that we mods don't really want people to post are inaccessible studies that are behind a paywall because those are something that not everyone here can see.

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I understand that people have strong opinions, but I don't know why someone would comment on a thread that deliberately goes against the spirit of the topic. It's along the lines of "if you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything at all." They could simply move along and go debate anywhere else. It's that thought process that says "well I know this is supposed to be about A but I'm going to talk about X."

I don't mind that people disagree, or think differently, but bringing down the overall tone is evidence (in my mind) that the person cares more about arguing/causing turmoil, than trying to play nice (or at least be neutral) for one moment. To step outside their boundaries for a single comment.

It just disappoints me to be honest. I like to believe everyone can be good and selfless. I like to believe that any prejudice, bias, or belief can be set aside if the person really wants to.

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I have learned we're just barely scratching the surface of these complex issues discussed here. I've read some excellent points from many people, and I appreciate the opposing viewpoints as well.

However, I think the parody going on in the BP is counter-productive. You're just insulting people and pushing them further away from seeing the other side of things. That's like making a mockery of people who turn to God as a replacement for drug/alcohol abuse. Yes, it's arguably a crutch, but if it works for them and spurs on self-improvement, it's still mostly beneficial (as long as you don't take it too far, as some arguably do).

As for the RP sub, the men there are young, and the sort of behavior you see there is reflective of that. Sometimes it's locker room talk, not really meant for outside consumption beyond the target audience. Reading what Red Pill Women have to say has been especially interesting as a counter balance. I suspect they would agree with the statement, "boys will be boys."

That being said, I still find a lot about RP that is personally useful, game theory, SMV, striving for a state of non-assholish alphaness, etc, regardless of the lack of peer reviewed research. In life, we almost never have all the answers laid out before us, it takes time, trial/error, intuition, etc. Of course we're not trying to ace a final exam here, only pass it.

Women perhaps do not understand how debilitating it is for men who get caught in a 'pedestalization of women' trap. It's a mental cage that only you can get out of. They call it being beta, which I think is fine. RP can help here. Some men need to read some of the threads there to literally wake up from a false consciousness. The maturity will follow later, one step at a time.

[–]RlyORly2 points3 points4 points 12 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

So maybe if we didn't have a culture of pedestalizing women, there wouldn't be a lot of angry men, and TRP could focus mostly on self-improvement!

Though I understand that TBP's mockery of TRP might push people from understinding TBP's point of view, I think that TBP is mostly a defense mechanism for some of the things you can find in TRP. I think it could feel the same as reading Cosmo advice on how to date men, just a lot more extreme. "Hey, I'm not like that, I don't like girls who treat me as a pet, or use cook-book approaches to relationships!". So yeah, there they are, arguing against that kind of stuff.

There IS some value in TRP. There is some anecdotal wisdom. But it's overshadowed with anger, and lack of perception from the other side. Though I can understand the pain... it feels like problems men face today aren't really understood by society. For example, don't be a virgin, because you won't know how to please a woman (for a ONS atleast), but also don't be a player, because it means you treat women as objects. It's like there are very different contradicting expectations for men, where neither cares about what men want. So in the end, it seems best to assume DGAF attitude and just do what you want.

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Title	[Serious] What have we learned from PPD?
Author	Bonig
Upvotes	5
Comments	146
Date	November 20, 2013 11:54 PM UTC (12 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/PurplePillDebate
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/1r3kmi/serious_what_have_we_learned_from_ppd/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/PurplePillDebate/serious-what-have-we-learned-from-ppd.286572 https://theredarchive.com/post/286572

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