What does PPD think about "Plausible Deniability"?

masterrod · 2014-01-20T19:06:08+00:00

Women don't like being seen as sluts, but they do enjoy sex. So when your gaming a girl and want to switch from the venue or date to your home for the...

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[–]mrsamsa10 points11 points12 points 12 years ago (145 children) | Copy Link

I don't think I have any 'ethical' concerns with "plausible deniability", the only real issue I have is that it's just so childish and I hate people who play games in relationships (even if that relationship is just a one night stand). To me it's like kids in high school who, instead of just asking a girl out, go through this big charade of asking her what she would say if he were to ask her out one day, and if she says 'yes' then he asks her out but if she says 'no' then he tries to laugh it off by saying he was just joking anyway and she's a fool for thinking he was serious, etc etc.

Basically, no coherent definition or understanding of "alpha" can include someone who uses a tactic like that. That is the characterisation of the ultimate sniveling beta, in my opinion.

With that said, I understand and accept the obvious need for basic etiquette and social norms to be maintained, so asking someone to go back to your place to fuck (unless you know them well enough to judge a positive response) will likely just lead the other person to think you're a dickhead. So your plans will fall through but not because the girl is worried about being a "slut", but just because she thinks you're a douchebag. Instead the more conventional approach will be to say something like, "How about we go somewhere more private?" or whatever.

This really just highlights the problems with basing your worldview on anecdotes - you get nothing but confirmation bias.

[–]IIHotelYorbatreats objects like women5 points6 points7 points 12 years ago (15 children) | Copy Link

[–]mrsamsa9 points10 points11 points 12 years ago (13 children) | Copy Link

Go try this with girls. Really.

What do you mean? How do you think the vast majority of people who don't engage in negging and peacocking get laid? They use lines practically identical to that. It's how normal people interact - they just talk to each other. That's why normal people are so creeped out by red pillers obsession with deception and manipulation.

Honestly, go try this with girls. Really.

Do you think that pickup guys didn't extensively try this before everyone moved to "plausible deniability?" Of course they did

I call bullshit. Everything about PUAs and red pillers is tied up in a carefully constructed mythology that protects them from ever having to accept blame, and by the time they actually attempt to approach real women they've already invented a whole list of things to do and not to do.

That's why they come up with absurd ideas like "plausible deniability" instead of just asking for sex.

everyone used to want to be James fucking Bond and that's exactly the kind of thing that persona would say.

No, it's just a normal person thing to say. Come on now, the OP literally gave the example of showing holiday snaps from Hawaii. You think that is more plausible or more frequently used than asking a girl if they want to go somewhere more private?

Anything that directly implies sex will get you turned down in droves.

You'll only get turned down for two basic reasons:

1) she just doesn't like you (and that's fine), or

2) you were a creep about it.

I am far from a Casanova but I seriously doubt red pillers who claim that they understand "sexual strategy" or how to have sex with women if they think that "let's go somewhere more private" is some kind of radical move that comes right out of left-field and will automatically result in a rejection.

But hey, why am I trying to debate this logically? I'll take a leaf out of the red pill handbook: anecdotes. That proposition has worked with every single girl I have said it to, therefore it is a universal truth and any claim that it didn't work on a girl is an outlier and an attempt to appeal to NAWALT.

[–]IIHotelYorbatreats objects like women8 points9 points10 points 12 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link

What do you mean? How do you think the vast majority of people who don't engage in negging and peacocking get laid? They use lines practically identical to that. It's how normal people interact - they just talk to each other. That's why normal people are so creeped out by red pillers obsession with deception and manipulation.

See, this is why this stuff is so hard for you guys to understand. Negging and peacocking? That shit is from over ten years ago. 99% of the time I am literally just talking to people. That's what natural game is.

Like, seriously. You ever read about those young puas causing chaos and getting kicked out of shopping malls? If I approached a girl right in front of you you wouldn't know it. You'd just think we knew each other. And it's not because I'm some super smooth ninja master. Actually talking to people like they're human beings is kind of something I have a gigantic amount of experience with.

I don't manipulate anyone. It would imply I needed to. Why set up a paradigm where I need to manipulate people? Don't you think I understand what that would do to me psychologically? How much of a lesser person it would imply I am?

Honestly, go try this with girls. Really.

I did. Extensively. I did both. The thing about pickup is that no one wants to do the right thing, they want to do what they're comfortable with. And experience jackhammers you with failure until you get it right.

Everything about PUAs and red pillers is tied up in a carefully constructed mythology that protects them from ever having to accept blame, and by the time they actually attempt to approach real women they've already invented a whole list of things to do and not to do.

Sorry, but (RP notwithstanding) this is a carefully constructed mythology about puas. The only way any of us are allowed to even bring up ideas is if we have extensively tested them out in the field.

People can easily tell keyboard jockeys and they don't get listened to. Even if they do, and even when ideas are superficially good, they eventually get found out. You can't have that many guys going out and grinding through ideas and watching each other's progress live and on video and not pick up on how often something is effective.

No, it's just a normal person thing to say. Come on now, the OP literally gave the example of showing holiday snaps from Hawaii. You think that is more plausible or more frequently used than asking a girl if they want to go somewhere more private?

Dude this isn't even a James Bond thing to say, it's an Austin Powers thing to say. It's SO fucking cheesy. No one says this with a straight face. Not even fully blue pill dudes. It's WAY, way too direct.

Seriously, if you actually do go out, say this to a girl. Try to say it without putting on a voice and making a joke out of it to make it less awkward and direct.

I'm not saying that you can't say it, I'm saying most girls will react negatively, and you'll have to deal with that. You'll have to work around it. Most girls will say no even if they like you. A smaller amount of girls will go with it, and by that I mean several orders of magnitude smaller. Of course, a small amount of girls will like you when you call them a slut in front of a crowd of people. Have you done that? I have. I even know how to do that with a girl when she normally doesn't like it.

You'll only get turned down for two basic reasons: 1) she just doesn't like you (and that's fine), or 2) you were a creep about it. I am far from a Casanova but I seriously doubt red pillers who claim that they understand "sexual strategy" or how to have sex with women if they think that "let's go somewhere more private" is some kind of radical move that comes right out of left-field and will automatically result in a rejection. But hey, why am I trying to debate this logically? I'll take a leaf out of the red pill handbook: anecdotes. That proposition has worked with every single girl I have said it to, therefore it is a universal truth and any claim that it didn't work on a girl is an outlier and an attempt to appeal to NAWALT.

Don't debate it logically. Find out.

All in all, I'm not saying I'm right. I'm saying I've seen an enormous amount of shit first hand that backs up my ideas. Who knows, there could be magical gnomes living in men's and women's heads that make us do all this stuff.

[–]mrsamsa3 points4 points5 points 12 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

See, this is why this stuff is so hard for you guys to understand. Negging and peacocking? That shit is from over ten years ago. 99% of the time I am literally just talking to people. That's what natural game is.

I watched a red pill seminar video on how to peacock just the other day. That's what you guys don't understand, you can't just pretend that the embarrassing parts of your ideology don't exist.

You ever read about those young puas causing chaos and getting kicked out of shopping malls? If I approached a girl right in front of you you wouldn't know it. You'd just think we knew each other.

But that's what the people in the shopping malls think they're doing as well. And when you started asking if a girl wanted to come back to your place to view your holiday photos of Hawaii, any pretense of it being a "natural" conversation would be extinguished.

I don't manipulate anyone. It would imply I needed to. Why set up a paradigm where I need to manipulate people? Don't you think I understand what that would do to me psychologically? How much of a lesser person it would imply I am?

Well I am glad to hear that you don't believe in the idea of trying to overcome things like "LMR", but you have to understand that you are a serious outlier in that respect.

I did. Extensively. I did both.

Oh I see, so your anecdotes are real and mine aren't?

The only way any of us are allowed to even bring up ideas is if we have extensively tested them out in the field.

Translation: if we show that our confirmation bias supports our preconceived notions.

Dude this isn't even a James Bond thing to say, it's an Austin Powers thing to say. It's SO fucking cheesy. No one says this with a straight face. Not even fully blue pill dudes. It's WAY, way too direct.

I don't think you understand the definition of "cheesy".

Seriously, if you actually do go out, say this to a girl. Try to say it without putting on a voice and making a joke out of it to make it less awkward and direct.

I don't understand why you're trying so desperately to ignore what I'm saying. Comments along those lines are pretty much the only things I've used to encourage moving to my place with a girl and it always works for me. And every guy I know is just as direct because we aren't 12 any more.

I'm not saying that you can't say it, I'm saying most girls will react negatively, and you'll have to deal with that.

No, they really won't, unless they don't like you much at all in the first place.

Most girls will say no even if they like you.

Why would girls say no if they like you? If I want sex, and they want sex, they appreciate cutting through the bullshit and making a clear invitation.

If you are consistently being shot down when you make offers of sex then the problem isn't your approach, it's just that they don't like you very much.

Don't debate it logically. Find out.

Man that was painful to watch. But again you're missing the point, I'm following the red pill line of logic here and using my anecdotes as evidence. I've conclusively demonstrated that the method I've described above works and you can't disprove it. You can present your contradicting anecdotes but, in good red pill tradition, I can simply reject your anecdotes as outliers or unrepresentative.

You found a bunch of girls that responded negatively to it? Oh well, those are just evil unicorns. NAWALT!

All in all, I'm not saying I'm right. I'm saying I've seen an enormous amount of shit first hand that backs up my ideas.

You are quite forcefully trying to tell me that my anecdotes aren't real or representative and that instead I should be trusting your experiences and anecdotes.

Do you realise how nuts that sounds?

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[–]mrsamsa2 points 12 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Heh, there's nothing dramatic about pointing out how fruitless debate is when your partner won't admit to things they just said.

If I've said it, then just quote it. You've written out two posts to me now trying to defend the idea that I'm contradicting myself. Why bother writing all those words and trying to come up with arguments when you can simply just quote me?

Also, being a contrarian does not equal cogency. Your posts boil down to quoting me and saying, "no it isn't."

They clearly don't. If that were true, my posts would be much shorter.

I like debate so I actually continue after someone does this, but there's a point when I realize talking to someone is an endlessly fractalizing recursion of obstinate, blind disagreement.

The problem you're facing here is that we're arguing using red pill logic (I know, that's my fault for adopting your rulebook but I wanted to give it a go). As such, everything you think and believe is based on anecdotes. We both presented anecdotes. There is literally nothing else we can do because anecdotes are a shitty way of determining the truth of a claim about the observable world.

Our evidence directly nullifies the other.

It doesn't matter how poor your argumentation is, there will always just be more of it. Soon you'll expect me to prove that chewing gum exists.

That makes no sense - you're the one making the wacky claims here and failing to support them. If your chewing gum analogy describes anyone in this discussion then it's necessarily you.

Feel free to say you won, or that I'm tearfully fleeing. I'm wrong. That better? You didn't prove your case at all, but I'm just wrong. Whatever you want.

What are you even talking about? I don't want you to run away, I don't want to claim victory, I just want you to back up or support any claim you have made at all.

You guys just get weirder and weirder.

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[–]masterrodPops all pills when necessary. And keeps a heavy stash of RPs.[S] -1 points0 points1 point 12 years ago (122 children) | Copy Link

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[–]regtopolousRed Pill Man-1 points0 points1 point 12 years ago (71 children) | Copy Link

it's that you will get associated with people who talk like that and they are, for the most part, douchebags

This sort of gets into Red Pill theory super hard.

Women want men who are considered in their mind high value.

Dudes who yell out of their car at women do not have the balls to approach a woman and communicate their intentions. A woman associates this behaviour with a low value human being, and cowardliness as she knows the man could not protect her physically. Because she does not know the man's intentions, she is worried about her physical safety.

In other words, the woman finds the man to be in her evaluation of it, a creep.

Women don't want to be hit on by creepy dudes, or low value dudes. A woman finds it insulting when a low value man takes up any of her time, and feels that it is sexual harassment when they do so.

They want to be hit on by high value dudes, a.k.a. Alphas.

This is Red Pill theory.

See in this often quoted SNL skit.

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=f76_1323277426

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[–]masterrodPops all pills when necessary. And keeps a heavy stash of RPs.[S] -3 points-2 points-1 points 12 years ago (48 children) | Copy Link

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[–]masterrodPops all pills when necessary. And keeps a heavy stash of RPs.[S] -3 points-2 points-1 points 12 years ago (46 children) | Copy Link

[–]mrsamsa8 points9 points10 points 12 years ago (28 children) | Copy Link

It's not something i would do. I don't really know why it's "wrong".

Well I never said it was "wrong", just that those people are douchebags. But the problem is that society operates by people within that society adopting a minimum level of standards so that everyone can live and function as best as possible. One of these standards is to not sexually harrass people.

In my opinion, and I think this is shared by many others, this isn't a particularly difficult standard to meet and therefore anyone who fails at it is, at the very least, a douchebag.

I look at easy way to find the easiest girl to sleep with. Cause if a girl responds favorably, that's it.

That's nice but you've also sexually harassed and probably scared the shit out of countless other women along the way. To test how far you're willing to take the logic of your argument, replace the sexual harassment with rape (and we'll assume for now we live in a magical land where you cannot be caught or punished for your actions, as that's essentially how it is with many forms of sexual harassment that we're discussing).

So would you accept the argument that if such a person were to rape a number of women, it would be justified on the basis that every now and then a woman will be fine with it because they wanted sex anyway?

I definitely don't know why it's wrong from a woman's perspective.

I don't think you need a woman's perspective at all, it's just a pretty normal human thing to generally attempt to refrain from sexual harassment.

[–]masterrodPops all pills when necessary. And keeps a heavy stash of RPs.[S] -3 points-2 points-1 points 12 years ago (27 children) | Copy Link

That's nice but you've also sexually harassed and probably scared the shit out of countless other women along the way. To test how far you're willing to take the logic of your argument, replace the sexual harassment with rape (and we'll assume for now we live in a magical land where you cannot be caught or punished for your actions, as that's essentially how it is with many forms of sexual harassment that we're discussing). So would you accept the argument that if such a person were to rape a number of women, it would be justified on the basis that every now and then a woman will be fine with it because they wanted sex anyway?

I don't consider a cat call sexual harassment. It's not classy, but it isn't sexual harassment. I think if they persist then that could be uncomfortable, or a problem. If you just touch someone, I think that's a matter of personal space. And rape is very deliberate action, and requires by definition domination. Where saying something that someone doesn't like isn't that way. And asking some directly for sex is also not that at all. I don't think you can just replace the words.

I don't think you need a woman's perspective at all, it's just a pretty normal human thing to generally attempt to refrain from sexual harassment.

Well I'm asking because your position doesn't make sense, and I think it might if I could see from a woman's perspective. IMO, it doesn't make sense that guys are expected to make all the moves, but also they're expected to mind read. And they are called names when they don't "mind" read properly. A girl give all signals then just say no. And the guy is called douche. That whole idea doesn't make sense to me.

[–]mrsamsa9 points10 points11 points 12 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

I don't consider a cat call sexual harassment.

And that's you're prerogative, you're wrong though. I'm sorry but I'm honestly not going to debate whether it's sexual harassment to yell at women out of windows asking them for sexual favours or to send unsolicited dick pics to someone.

There is a line in reality that even TRP cannot seriously cross, I hope.

Well I'm asking because your position doesn't make sense, and I think it might if I could see from a woman's perspective.

Maybe a woman will chime in but it's honestly unnecessary. I'm a man and I have no problem at all understanding it. Practically all of the men who aren't in prison for sexual harassment or rape understand it.

It really isn't a gender issue.

IMO, it doesn't make sense that guys are expected to make all the moves, but also they're expected to mind read. And they are called names when they don't "mind" read properly.

Nobody expects guys to mind read. Why would you need to be able to read minds to know that you shouldn't send random girls pictures of your dick?

A girl give all signals then just say no.

A couple of possibilities here:

1) what you think are "signals" aren't signals,

2) you are getting signals but they don't want to have sex. They are flirting with you because they like you and find you attractive but that doesn't necessarily mean they want to immediately jump into bed with you.

Regardless of whether they are sending signals or not, it doesn't matter if you proposition them and they say no. It's not the end of the world, nobody shames you for it except maybe other men. All you have to do is not be a dickhead about it and for the most part, unless the woman is a horrible person that you wouldn't want to sleep with anyway, they'll generally do their best to let you down gently.

It's not their fault that they don't want to have sex with you.

And the guy is called douche. That whole idea doesn't make sense to me.

I'd posit that it's because it's largely a fantastical conspiracy created by some men who let their emotions and cognitive biases get the best of them. That's why it doesn't make sense, it's not real. Fiction.

For example, they'll be at a party and they'll try chatting a girl up, when she doesn't move away from him and sometimes smiles he thinks she is "flirting" and "sending signals". He thinks now is the time to make his move, so he grabs her around the waist and pulls her into his lap. Nice one, she's obviously impressed with his show of dominance and alphaness because she's not trying to get away, slap him, or tell him he's uncomfortable. The night moves on and he asks if she wants to have sex but she says no.

What a cockteasing bitch. And she also goes on to tell her friends how creepy and rapey you are. You were just responding to her signals, right?! Society is obviously prejudiced against displays of masculinity and girls just call guys creepy when they experience LMR, even though they secretly do want to have sex but don't want to be viewed as a slut by society.

That is all obviously bullshit though. The guy has met a nice girl who smiles at him because she's friendly. He pulls her into his lap and she now doesn't know what the fuck to do, he takes it as a good sign, propositions her, and she says no because at this point she doesn't want anything to do with a guy that would force himself on to women like that. She warns her friends to stay away from him because he sends off major warning signs, like grabbing women against their will.

The guy is a douchebag. He can distort and reinvent history to make it fit whatever narrative he wants, but if someone is consistently being called creepy after being rejected by girls, it's not because rejected guys are being classed as 'creepy' - it's because the guy is being creepy.

The solution is to reassess your own behavior, not to adopt a misogynistic ideology that conforms to your own warped view of the world.

[–]masterrodPops all pills when necessary. And keeps a heavy stash of RPs.[S] -5 points-4 points-3 points 12 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

And that's you're prerogative, you're wrong though. I'm sorry but I'm honestly not going to debate whether it's sexual harassment to yell at women out of windows asking them for sexual favours or to send unsolicited dick pics to someone. There is a line in reality that even TRP cannot seriously cross, I hope.

Sexual harassment relates to the law. Dick pics is whole another thing. I'm not condoning dick pics sent randomly to people. A guy making a rude comment to woman, is not a big deal. It's not great either, but women do it too. We live in a free speech country, so it's how it is. If he persist, that's another situation.

Maybe a woman will chime in but it's honestly unnecessary. I'm a man and I have no problem at all understanding it. Practically all of the men who aren't in prison for sexual harassment or rape understand it. It really isn't a gender issue.

It's a gender issue. Thought you were a woman, my bad.

Nobody expects guys to mind read. Why would you need to be able to read minds to know that you shouldn't send random girls pictures of your dick?

It's extremely typical for a woman to expect a guy to get her "clues". Dick pics are dumb to me, you have to see my dick in person. Fuck that.

It's not their fault that they don't want to have sex with you.

It most definitely is their fault. What isn't cool is calling someone creepy for making a strong move. That's all I mean.

The guy is a douchebag. He can distort and reinvent history to make it fit whatever narrative he wants, but if someone is consistently being called creepy after being rejected by girls, it's not because rejected guys are being classed as 'creepy' - it's because the guy is being creepy.

haha.. Can you define creepy? Is it thinking he should have sex and making a bad move? haha.. That's definitely not my idea of creepy.

The solution is to reassess your own behavior, not to adopt a misogynistic ideology that conforms to your own warped view of the world.

As a guy that sleeps with women. You adopt what is necessary to win, and something that allows you to look in the mirror every day. Simple.

[–]mrsamsa7 points 12 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

A guy making a rude comment to woman, is not a big deal. It's not great either, but women do it too.

It's called "sexual harassment" when it's unsolicited and unwanted, regardless of who does it.

We live in a free speech country, so it's how it is.

Free speech doesn't cover sexual harassment. That's where the saying, "Your freedom ends where another's begins" comes from.

It's a gender issue.

It's not a gender issue because both men and women understand it. You don't need a female perspective to understand why sexual harassment is bad.

It's extremely typical for a woman to expect a guy to get her "clues".

"Typical" in your experiences, maybe. If you like a girl who is shit at communication, don't retaliate by also being shit at communicating. It's not a gender issue either, there are groups of shitty men and women who play games and expect others to read their minds.

My advice would be to simply find a girl who has some understanding of how communication should work in a relationship, and generally this is most women above high school age.

It most definitely is their fault.

I'm not sure if you meant to agree with me and typoed here. Surely you aren't saying that you blame women for not wanting to have sex with someone? That'd be absurd.

What isn't cool is calling someone creepy for making a strong move. That's all I mean.

But that just doesn't happen, at least with no frequency to be concerned about. You are conflating red flags like sexual harassment (e.g. pulling a woman into your lap against her will) with "strong moves".

You can have strong moves without breaking the law, and if you have to resort to sexual harassment in order to make "strong moves" then you will rightly and accurately be labeled "creepy".

haha.. Can you define creepy? Is it thinking he should have sex and making a bad move? haha.. That's definitely not my idea of creepy.

Wanting to have sex and making mistakes is not creepy, and that's why you'll have extreme difficulty finding a real world situation where that has happened.

As a guy that sleeps with women. You adopt what is necessary to win, and something that allows you to look in the mirror every day. Simple.

As a guy that sleeps with women, I could not look at myself in the mirror if I gave up all pretense of having honour and integrity by treating human relationships as something I need to "win" at and adopted a misogynistic ideology all in the sad and desperate attempt to have sex with an extremely narrow and specific subset of women who are so revolting that they would consider having sex with someone who held such views.

If you are willing to give up any notion of values and morals that you may have once had in order to change everything about yourself with the goal of having sex with women you don't even like, then you are not alpha. Any ideology that characterises a person like that as even approaching "alpha", is incoherent and ridiculous as they are idealising the scummiest person imaginable.

[–]masterrod-1 point 12 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

It's called "sexual harassment" when it's unsolicited and unwanted, regardless of who does it.

There is a component of "want" here. That means up to the harassee to say they don't' want something. An off hand comment is an off hand comment. The thing when you're picking up people out the open this is part of it. You just have to learn to withdraw if she openly displays dislike.

It's not a gender issue because both men and women understand it. You don't need a female perspective to understand why sexual harassment is bad.

If that were the case there would be no laws. The fact it's easy for women to call harassment if some undesirable guy is hitting on them. Men on the other hand don't usually have that situation. It's unbalanced situation. However, at any rate it's up to the harrassee to say something. Or simply remove them self from the situation. Cause there is simply no way to know whether a woman "wants" to be approached, or what way will work until it's tried.

"Typical" in your experiences, maybe. If you like a girl who is shit at communication, don't retaliate by also being shit at communicating. It's not a gender issue either, there are groups of shitty men and women who play games and expect others to read their minds. My advice would be to simply find a girl who has some understanding of how communication should work in a relationship, and generally this is most women above high school age.

My advice is to try date some attractive women from a cold walkup, and see how far your expectation of directness gets you. But that being said, most people don't understand communication especially when hormones are involved. We all have to learn that, and it's an ongoing process.

But that just doesn't happen, at least with no frequency to be concerned about. You are conflating red flags like sexual harassment (e.g. pulling a woman into your lap against her will) with "strong moves". You can have strong moves without breaking the law, and if you have to resort to sexual harassment in order to make "strong moves" then you will rightly and accurately be labeled "creepy".

If you remember i was talking "Cat calls". Which frankly they're is benign, crass but benign. If you're talking about grabbing someone, that's another story. It's all something in the moment. Sometimes you have to make a move. And she's not going to give landing signals. That's what's dating is all about. Sometimes you have to take the risk of being slapped.

Remember that even when it comes rape, in most states, if it can be proven that she is complicit in the action before the act, then it isn't rape. Same goes for picking up ladies. IMO, the creep is the guy who goes home masturbates to the hot girl he tried to pickup, not the guy that makes a move and gets shut down.

Wanting to have sex and making mistakes is not creepy, and that's why you'll have extreme difficulty finding a real world situation where that has happened.

I am asking you to define creep or creepy.

As a guy that sleeps with women, I could not look at myself in the mirror if I gave up all pretense of having honour and integrity by treating human relationships as something I need to "win" at and adopted a misogynistic ideology all in the sad and desperate attempt to have sex with an extremely narrow and specific subset of women who are so revolting that they would consider having sex with someone who held such views.

Where does this happen? Women are amazing, that's why I want sleep the best ones. I want the best pussy. I want the best sex. I want loyalty. Guess what other guys want that shit too. So I got to make sure my approach, and my game is tight so others don't take my shit. That's called winning. She wants a winner. No matter what she tells you. You use misogyny like it means something. The fact is women don't even care what you think of them in relationships, they just cares what she feels when she's with you. That's why focusing on misogyny doesn't matter. It happens that misogynistic ideas help men to n act with purpose.

If you are willing to give up any notion of values and morals that you may have once had in order to change everything about yourself with the goal of having sex with women you don't even like, then you are not alpha. Any ideology that characterises a person like that as even approaching "alpha", is incoherent and ridiculous as they are idealising the scummiest person imaginable.

The moral is not to let sucker take my stuff. I happen to love women. If you say this about alpha is incoherent, then you don't understand alpha. The concept has been written so any ways and for so long, it's pointless go over. Alpha is when you can shock your women with your love whenever you please. And make her feel that you have direction for her heart, and she can relax knowing you wild handle everything. That you should understand.

Maybe you understand winning and losing better. You win when you're happy with the women you want to be with. And she chose you. That's winning. Losing is masturbating wishing your life could be something else.

The goal is to be a winner everyday, all day. Simple and plain. If you can win another way, so be it. Nothing wrong with that, but remember some women don't respond that way, so there other ways of thinking and ways to deal with things.

[–]mrsamsa7 points 12 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

There is a component of "want" here. That means up to the harassee to say they don't' want something.

No it's the other way around - you have to demonstrate that you had reason to think that she did want it. Could you imagine how fucked up the world would be if everyone had to explicitly tell everyone else at every moment of every day every single thing that they did not want done to them against their will?

If that were the case there would be no laws.

So because there's a law against murder that means that most people don't understand that murder is bad? Your reasoning is a bit faulty here.

The fact it's easy for women to call harassment if some undesirable guy is hitting on them.

They can "call it" if they like but if no sexual harassment is taking place then it's going to have no consequences. And honestly, even if harassment is taking place there will likely be no consequences anyway as many people don't take sexual harassment seriously.

However, at any rate it's up to the harrassee to say something. Or simply remove them self from the situation. Cause there is simply no way to know whether a woman "wants" to be approached, or what way will work until it's tried.

This is just fucked up logic. If someone doesn't want to be harassed then they have to state clearly and explicitly to every person they meet exactly what things they do and do not want? And if they cannot perform this impossible task then they should leave?

Here's a radical idea: how about we ask people to simply not sexually harass others? Don't do things to others unless they want it. Sounds easy, almost as if that's actually how society operates...

My advice is to try date some attractive women from a cold walkup, and see how far your expectation of directness gets you.

Directness has always proven to be the easiest way for me to connect to women (and other people). The only times I've run into trouble is when I, or others, have been unclear about what they want. You see this all the time with guys who complain about being "friendzoned" - learn to communicate and you'll never be friendzoned.

But that being said, most people don't understand communication especially when hormones are involved. We all have to learn that, and it's an ongoing process.

That makes no sense.

If you remember i was talking "Cat calls". Which frankly they're is benign, crass but benign.

Sexual harassment is not "benign".

Remember that even when it comes rape, in most states, if it can be proven that she is complicit in the action before the act, then it isn't rape.

Depends what you mean by "complicit" - if you mean she consented, either verbally or through actions, then of course it's not rape.

Same goes for picking up ladies. IMO, the creep is the guy who goes home masturbates to the hot girl he tried to pickup, not the guy that makes a move and gets shut down.

I don't think anyone would define the latter as a creep.

I am asking you to define creep or creepy.

Being "creepy" is essentially introducing the element of unease and uncomfortableness through your actions, and in sexual situations, this is usually a result of hitting a number of yellow or red flags that suggest you are not the kind of person that should be hung around with for any extended period of time, especially when alone. Being creepy usually involves violating personal space or engaging in various degrees of sexual harassment.

Where does this happen?

Have you read TRP? Their description of women is horrific, which results in many men explicitly stated that they wish they were attracted to guys and/or openly stating that they hate women.

So I got to make sure my approach, and my game is tight so others don't take my shit. That's called winning.

I'd say that's called being an insecure asshole. They're not fucking pokemon, man. You don't need to collect them all.

You use misogyny like it means something.

It does, it even has the definition in the dictionary.

The fact is women don't even care what you think of them in relationships, they just cares what she feels when she's with you. That's why focusing on misogyny doesn't matter. It happens that misogynistic ideas help men to n act with purpose.

And you don't hate women? You enjoy being with someone who, according to you, is incapable of love? Who only cares about what she feels when she's with you?

This is the problem you're trying to say doesn't exist above.

The moral is not to let sucker take my stuff.

Not 'stuff'. People. And they're not yours.

I happen to love women.

You just referred to them as "stuff" and claimed ownership of them. I'm sensing some serious cognitive dissonance going on here.

Alpha is when you can shock your women with your love whenever you please. And make her feel that you have direction for her heart, and she can relax knowing you wild handle everything. That you should understand.

Alpha is not being a whiny pathetic manchild who is worried about what others guys are doing and is worried about "losing their stuff".

Maybe you understand winning and losing better. You win when you're happy with the women you want to be with. And she chose you. That's winning. Losing is masturbating wishing your life could be something else.

We're almost in agreement here, except I'd rephrase it as winning is being happy with how you've carved out your life and losing is settling for something less than what you want. Winning can be settling down with the girl of your dreams or it can be masturbating alone every night, if that's what gets you off.

The important point is that if you're defining "winning" in terms of what other people tell you that you should want, or if you're spending time worrying about other people sleeping with girls that you haven't even met yet, then you are not winning.

Nothing wrong with that, but remember some women don't respond that way, so there other ways of thinking and ways to deal with things.

Two points though:

1) sexual harassment is always wrong, and

2) there is no problem with tailoring your approach to suit the needs of specific women, my only note is that these are typically the women you seem to habour some ill feeling towards - i.e. the kinds of women who only care about how they feel when she's with you.

If you want women who are capable of love and honour, and are smart, not overly emotional, and capable of logic - then you are not winning as you are tangled up in a method that has doomed you to failure.

[–]masterrod-1 point 12 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

No it's the other way around - you have to demonstrate that you had reason to think that she did want it. Could you imagine how fucked up the world would be if everyone had to explicitly tell everyone else at every moment of every day every single thing that they did not want done to them against their will?

That happens how it is in public. It's different in the work place.

So because there's a law against murder that means that most people don't understand that murder is bad? Your reasoning is a bit faulty here.

Murder is extremely complicated, and your reductionist approach isn't helping your point. We have laws because there is more than perspective in sexual harassment. Sexual Harassment is a situation where there can be more than one perspective, and in fact both parties could have plausible arguments. The 2 perspectives makes murder a bad analogy, cause with murder only the survivor can speak.

This is just fucked up logic. If someone doesn't want to be harassed then they have to state clearly and explicitly to every person they meet exactly what things they do and do not want? And if they cannot perform this impossible task then they should leave? Here's a radical idea: how about we ask people to simply not sexually harass others? Don't do things to others unless they want it. Sounds easy, almost as if that's actually how society operates...

It's not really impossible to remove oneself from a situation. If you know some attractive women, they learn how to do it.

Directness has always proven to be the easiest way for me to connect to women (and other people). The only times I've run into trouble is when I, or others, have been unclear about what they want. You see this all the time with guys who complain about being "friendzoned" - learn to communicate and you'll never be friendzoned.

Well that's cause your not good at it. Women are notoriously indirect, sorry. Especially on cold walk ups. Learn to communicate must be your attempt at profound logic. Maybe you don't realize that TRP is specific communication style.

I don't think anyone would define the latter as a creep.

women do.. idk.

Being "creepy" is essentially introducing the element of unease and uncomfortableness through your actions, and in sexual situations, this is usually a result of hitting a number of yellow or red flags that suggest you are not the kind of person that should be hung around with for any extended period of time, especially when alone. Being creepy usually involves violating personal space or engaging in various degrees of sexual harassment.

You must understand that sleeping with a strange person is uncomfortable. There's a fine line. In order to sleep with some women you have no choice but to do these things. It's just how it is. Otherwise, you're left to get what women will give you. Your goal is to make feel it's right.

The object is not to go to far over the line.

Have you read TRP? Their description of women is horrific, which results in many men explicitly stated that they wish they were attracted to guys and/or openly stating that they hate women.

TRP doesn't hate women. They seek to protect men from women that abuse them. Besides how can a group hate the object of their desire.

I'd say that's called being an insecure asshole. They're not fucking pokemon, man. You don't need to collect them all.

I'm an insecure asshole cause I like fucking women. haha. If I had infinite time I'd catch them all. I really only need one though.

It does, it even has the definition in the dictionary.

Unfortunately, in TRP is just tool to get men to understand parts of women's personality quickly.

And you don't hate women? You enjoy being with someone who, according to you, is incapable of love? Who only cares about what she feels when she's with you?

I said all this? I love women. Women incapable loving like a man. Sure I think that one of the most amazing things about women is their emotions and feelings. It'sf fascinating how they can feel something and just act on it. That trait can be infuriating as well.

Not 'stuff'. People. And they're not yours.

Relationships are about ownership. We own each other's hearts as long as we follow each other's rules. Yep my stuff, my pussy, my ass, my tits, etc.

Alpha is not being a whiny pathetic manchild who is worried about what others guys are doing and is worried about "losing their stuff".

Never worried, just vigilant. Got to protect your ish, or raise value and bounce.

The important point is that if you're defining "winning" in terms of what other people tell you that you should want, or if you're spending time worrying about other people sleeping with girls that you haven't even met yet, then you are not winning.

Huh? I don't remember but ok..

Two points though: 1) sexual harassment is always wrong, and 2) there is no problem with tailoring your approach to suit the needs of specific women, my only note is that these are typically the women you seem to habour some ill feeling towards - i.e. the kinds of women who only care about how they feel when she's with you. If you want women who are capable of love and honour, and are smart, not overly emotional, and capable of logic - then you are not winning as you are tangled up in a method that has doomed you to failure.

Sexual harassment when it gets to that level sure it's wrong. As a guy you must know when to stop. As a woman you must know how to say no.

there is no problem with tailoring your approach to suit the needs of specific women, my only note is that these are typically the women you seem to habour some ill feeling towards - i.e. the kinds of women who only care about how they feel when she's with you.

Unfortunately, they care about their feelings. They will sacrifice for their feelings, or for what they've felt. But women are not men. Their priorities are just different. That's why TRP is written in the way it is, so men can understand quickly how they can do well with women that act a certain way.

A woman can be emotional, and still smart and capable logic. But relationships are only half logical, and sometimes less than that.

For the record, I don't harbor any ill feelings towards any women.

[–]RobotPartsCorp2 points3 points4 points 12 years ago (12 children) | Copy Link

[–]masterrodPops all pills when necessary. And keeps a heavy stash of RPs.[S] 1 point2 points3 points 12 years ago (11 children) | Copy Link

[–]RobotPartsCorp2 points 12 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

If he is driving by in a car, I doubt he cares about actually having sex, if he was he would try a method that actually works better, I don't know...

And yeah, I would feel unsafe because he has already shown himself to be a man who doesn't give a fuck about a womans feelings and has put his own feelings above everyone elses and acted on them, why would I trust him to not push boundaries? Not only that, he has shown anti-social behavior which is definitely a red flag. Also the fact that for him its about hollering so everyone hears, not just me, otherwise he would walk up to me on the street, but he wants attention and wants to be seen not just by me.

And yes I would feel embarassed and it doesn't have anything to do with some dude finding me attractive...a lot of people find me attractive, thats nice and all but there is no need to yell out the window of a moving car or across the street at me, it brings me unwanted attention. This happens a lot for me too, as I do a lot of walking in a city, so I get hollered at in one form of another at least daily. I am a shy person, I do not like that sort of attention and it embarrasses me although it shouldn't, as its the harasser that should be embarrassed.

[–]masterrod2 points 12 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

I can't agree with you that he doesn't about care about your feelings. But I do see where you're coming from now.

And yeah, I would feel unsafe because he has already shown himself to be a man who doesn't give a fuck about a womans feelings and has put his own feelings above everyone elses and acted on them, why would I trust him to not push boundaries? Not only that, he has shown anti-social behavior which is definitely a red flag. Also the fact that for him its about hollering so everyone hears, not just me, otherwise he would walk up to me on the street, but he wants attention and wants to be seen not just by me.

I don't know if it's anti-social behavior, cause I've only seen that with multiple guys together. Which could be a cause for concern.

And yes I would feel embarassed and it doesn't have anything to do with some dude finding me attractive...a lot of people find me attractive, thats nice and all but there is no need to yell out the window of a moving car or across the street at me, it brings me unwanted attention. This happens a lot for me too, as I do a lot of walking in a city, so I get hollered at in one form of another at least daily. I am a shy person, I do not like that sort of attention and it embarrasses me although it shouldn't, as its the harasser that should be embarrassed.

So it seems you would be ok with someone walking up to you and saying you're beautiful. Versus telling the whole entire world, right?

[–]RobotPartsCorp2 points 12 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

I don't know if it's anti-social behavior, cause I've only seen that with multiple guys together. Which could be a cause for concern.

I can understand that.

So it seems you would be ok with someone walking up to you and saying you're beautiful. Versus telling the whole entire world, right?

Not always, but I certainly wouldn't feel harassed by it. That happens sometimes, and my reaction is very dependent on the situation. Here are real life examples: A guy who isn't even in the realm of my "type" comes up to me and says "you're beautiful". I said "thanks!", and that was that. He didn't seem to expect anything more, so it was very nice. I did not get the impression that he meant harm or that he was fishing for a reaction.

Another time, a guy who was standing in a group of other guys says as I am walking by "hey lady! hey lady!" I ignore him (which is what I do unless its like the case above where I just say "thanks" and move on) to which he responds "Hey lady! I was just going to tell you you're beautiful! You don't have to be a bitch!". See...he demanded my attention and felt entitled to it and lashed out because he didn't get what he felt entitled to (my attention, I guess).

There have been times where guys have grabbed my hand to pull me closer and when I have reacted by jumping back and pulling my hand away, they would call me a bitch because they were "just being nice!". oy.

[–]lokidemon731 1 point2 points3 points 12 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link

[–]masterrodPops all pills when necessary. And keeps a heavy stash of RPs.[S] -1 points0 points1 point 12 years ago* (6 children) | Copy Link

Imagine someone said "hey gay boy, want to fuck?" out the window at you and then honked and laughed and drove away. Would you be comfortable or uncomfortable?

Wouldn't matter. I'd probably laugh. Keep in mind I walk around naked in gym shower regularly, with my dick hanging out. Guys play like that it sometimes, I'd probably take it as a joke. I don't fuck dudes so it wouldn't matter.

Imagine a guy got up real close to you, leered at you, and told you to show him your dick. Comfortable or uncomfortable?

I'm a guy, and quite aggressive. That's a who is alpha moment, I'm game.

magine an ex who you have been trying desperately to get rid of sends you a picture of her tits and vagina, even though you are in another relationship. Comfortable or uncomfortable?

I don't get of rid of exes, that's girl shit. Send the pics! All of them! If you're one of my exes just send me pics any time, i'm ok with that.

Keep in mind i think dick pics are stupid, I don't send dick pics to anyone.

You don't have to read minds. Just think about what's socially appropriate in the situation, it's really not hard. Pretty much everyone is able to do it quite well.

It's quite hard actually, that's why it's tough for people. It's especially hard when it comes to hormones. You can't live your live doing what's socially acceptable, you have to go for what you want. That's the point.

Your examples are just bad examples. I'm a guy willing to walk to girl in the street and try to mack it to her. I'm not going to cat call or any of that bullshit, but when it comes dealing with people I don't have comfort problems. That being said sometimes I get the jitters approaching women, but that's the game, you just do it anyway. I'm not 100% but i do what I can.

[–]lokidemon7313 points 12 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]masterrod0 points 12 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

I understand that social interaction is learned. This thread is about plausible deniability, and digressed into sexual harassment. I'm still unsure how that happened.

Plausible deniability is being aware of social consequence of a woman having sex with you. No matter how much she wants to sleep with you, if afterwards she has some sort real/imagined external consequences, she won't sleep with you.

I think it's silly to think that social interactions are normal, especially when we're talking about bringing a woman to bed. If you don't crack the "norm", you won't get the girl you want, you'll only get what's given. A man has to learn to do what's right in the moment, even it's antithetical of a fictitious norm.

Most people are capable of problem free interaction with members of the opposite sex.

I think we all try to have problem free interactions with women, that's the goal. A woman being uncomfortable because she can't handle a given situation, isn't the guys problem, it's hers. His problem is learning to package his desire in a way that she will accept. And sometimes they both fuck up, sometimes one does. That's life.

[–][deleted]2 points 12 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

I'm a guy, and quite aggressive. That's a who is alpha moment, I'm game.

Okay, so let's pretend that you're a guy who is 5 feet tall and quite slim. A man who is 6 feet and obviously stronger than you approaches you, gets in your space, and tells you you're hot and he wants to see your dick. Last night you were watching the news and saw a story about a man, just like you, who got raped by a stranger in a public place. There's no friendly faces around, there are a couple of strangers but they're far enough away and not paying attention. If this guy wanted to he could probably hold you down and do whatever he liked. Does this make you feel uncomfortable? Do you understand how a woman in a similar position could feel that way? Chances are this guy is just a thoughtless asshole, but what if he's not and he's that one guy who'll take a rejection badly?

[–]masterrod0 points 12 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Okay, so let's pretend that you're a guy who is 5 feet tall and quite slim. A man who is 6 feet and obviously stronger than you approaches you, gets in your space, and tells you you're hot and he wants to see your dick. Last night you were watching the news and saw a story about a man, just like you, who got raped by a stranger in a public place. There's no friendly faces around, there are a couple of strangers but they're far enough away and not paying attention. If this guy wanted to he could probably hold you down and do whatever he liked. Does this make you feel uncomfortable? Do you understand how a woman in a similar position could feel that way? Chances are this guy is just a thoughtless asshole, but what if he's not and he's that one guy who'll take a rejection badly?

In that situation I'd be ready fight. I don't care about the size of the man. That's another story. Men test men similarly to this all the time. It's not like the wild, but it happens.

Regardless of how I would feel on the situation, I could definitely see how a woman could be afraid. However, some women might say this is the type sexual situation they want to be in. I think there's a fine line between what's acceptable, and what can digress into some sort of illegal encounter. So ladies, have to learn how to exit situations, or how to keep themselves out of bad situations.

So are you saying that women in general have problems with exiting a situation, so the capitulate by giving sex/getting rapped?

I do think women feel things much deeper than men. So I think some of this is lost on me. I am not an advocate of rape in anyway. I do think men have to be assertive when it comes to picking up women. It maybe be borderline uncomfortable at times, but you must try to to learn, or succeed.

[–][deleted]3 points 12 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

In that situation I'd be ready fight.

You'd be ready to fight, even if you knew that if you lost (and losing is pretty likely), you'd be subject to a beating and possibly worse? Would you still find the situation funny, or non-threatening, or something you're game for, or would you be made uncomfortable and threatened by the man's advances? Do you see what I'm getting at here?

So are you saying that women in general have problems with exiting a situation, so the capitulate by giving sex/getting rapped?

That's absolutely not what I'm saying. You're saying that a man hitting on you wouldn't make you uncomfortable, it'd be funny or just alpha-vs-alpha testing. I'm saying that this is not what women experience. If a man is uncomfortably forward in his advances it can make us fear for our lives, it's not just annoying. Most of the time this is not the case and the guy's just a bit of a pain in the ass, but it can happen. Men can be very physically intimidating.

I believe that men should be aware that if they fail to take no for an answer, invade a woman's space, use sexually explicit language to her, it often signals a physical threat to a woman. Unless you know her well enough to know she likes it, obviously. I think most men know this, which is why most men don't do it. You don't seem to understand why women have such a problem with it, though, and I'm telling you that it's because we don't normally find it funny or easy to brush off, we find it scary. It isn't just socially awkward, it's physically threatening.

[–]masterrod0 points 12 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

You'd be ready to fight, even if you knew that if you lost (and losing is pretty likely), you'd be subject to a beating and possibly worse? Would you still find the situation funny, or non-threatening, or something you're game for, or would you be made uncomfortable and threatened by the man's advances? Do you see what I'm getting at here?

Yes. I'm a bad example, doesn't mean I wouldn't have fear. But i'd just fight anyway, even if I could lose. Put in that situation it's best not to punk out. Fighting much more mental than it is physical. Your example illustrates why it's the responsibility of the woman to control her emotions and do what's necessary.

That's absolutely not what I'm saying. You're saying that a man hitting on you wouldn't make you uncomfortable, it'd be funny or just alpha-vs-alpha testing. I'm saying that this is not what women experience. If a man is uncomfortably forward in his advances it can make us fear for our lives, it's not just annoying. Most of the time this is not the case and the guy's just a bit of a pain in the ass, but it can happen. Men can be very physically intimidating.

This is understandable.

I believe that men should be aware that if they fail to take no for an answer, invade a woman's space, use sexually explicit language to her, it often signals a physical threat to a woman. Unless you know her well enough to know she likes it, obviously. I think most men know this, which is why most men don't do it. You don't seem to understand why women have such a problem with it, though, and I'm telling you that it's because we don't normally find it funny or easy to brush off, we find it scary. It isn't just socially awkward, it's physically threatening.

Since, I'm not a woman I can't truly understand. However, I do believe that women should learn to separate the emotions from the event. There's no reason they can't use their fear to their advantage.

My buddy taught a class about this very thing. He also touched on women defending themselves. I think women have take to explore their fear, and learn how to react properly.

[–]AbracadanielleBlue Pill Woman1 point2 points3 points 12 years ago (16 children) | Copy Link

[–]masterrodPops all pills when necessary. And keeps a heavy stash of RPs.[S] 0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (15 children) | Copy Link

[–]AbracadanielleBlue Pill Woman2 points3 points4 points 12 years ago (14 children) | Copy Link

[–]masterrodPops all pills when necessary. And keeps a heavy stash of RPs.[S] -2 points-1 points0 points 12 years ago (13 children) | Copy Link

[–]Abracadanielle3 points 12 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]masterrod0 points 12 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Why is sexual harassment wrong? I mean, why is violence wrong? Why is hurting or insulting someone wrong?

These are question you'd have to answer. These question have conditions.

Sexual harassment is a violation of another person. It's hostile. When you catcall a woman, you are bullying her, in a sexual manner. You are making her uncomfortable, on purpose. In many cases, it's illegal.

Her comfort is really her own problem, and also not something anyone can predict. And with that logic no one should ever walk-up to a girl and try to pick her up, cause it may make her uncomfortable.

Are these questions of yours genuine or philosophical? I've never encountered someone before who didn't know why sexual harassment was wrong.

These are philosophical question. I personally don't think one "Cat" call is anything to be concerned about, it sucks but is what it is. Sexual harassment is another story. If you willfully push past her shown boundaries then your committing sexual harassment, except in the work place.

[–]Abracadanielle3 points 12 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

In our society, sexual harassment has been deemed illegal, in the same way we have decided that violence and libel (insulting someone isn't necessarily illegal, but libel is a specific type of insult and is) are against our laws. I asked the other two rhetorical question because they are similarly philosophical. Obviously you want more of an answer than "It just is" when you ask why sexual harassment is wrong. But it's a difficult question to answer, just as difficult as why violence is wrong. It's because we as a society have decided that it we don't want it as part of our lives and civilization. We recognize any given person's right to walk down the street without getting punched in the face, the same way someone has a right to walk down the street without being sexually harassed.

Her comfort is really her own problem, and also not something anyone can predict.

Not wanting to be yelled at by strangers is pretty predictable. That's why street harassment is heavily frowned upon more and more these days.

And with that logic no one should ever walk-up to a girl and try to pick her up, cause it may make her uncomfortable.

I don't entirely disagree with that. I think walking up to a complete stranger and asking her out right then and there is a pretty bad way to ask someone out. There is a very high chance that yes, the girl will be uncomfortable. I probably would be.

I personally don't think one "Cat" call is anything to be concerned about, it sucks but is what it is

You're right, one, isolated catcall isn't really that big a deal. However, when every man in our society thinks that and thinks his one whistle or lewd comment is small and harmless, we end up with women who get catcalled multiple times a day, every day, because it's not a big deal, right? Then when the 20th man gets snapped at, he thinks she's overreacting, whereas she's at her wit's end. I know women who live in big cities and walk to work and many have told me that they've chosen to take longer-alternative routes that eat time out of their day to avoid street harassment. I think that's pretty unreasonable. Other kinds of harassment are also not tolerated by our society. If you walk to work every day and the same guy calls you an ugly asshole and says he's going to rob you, would you take an alternate route? Or would you call the police? Catcalling is a threat, whether you think of it as one or not. Catcalling is when a guy yells at a woman "I want to fuck you, I wish I was fucking you right now" because whatever he's actually saying, that's what he means. And that's a threat. Women have the right to decide who they sleep with, if at all.

If you willfully push past her shown boundaries then your committing sexual harassment, except in the work place.

I'm not sure what you mean by this. Do you mean pushing past boundaries in the work place isn't sexual harassment?

[–]masterrod0 points 12 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

In our society, sexual harassment has been deemed illegal, in the same way we have decided that violence and libel (insulting someone isn't necessarily illegal, but libel is a specific type of insult and is) are against our laws. I asked the other two rhetorical question because they are similarly philosophical. Obviously you want more of an answer than "It just is" when you ask why sexual harassment is wrong. But it's a difficult question to answer, just as difficult as why violence is wrong. It's because we as a society have decided that it we don't want it as part of our lives and civilization. We recognize any given person's right to walk down the street without getting punched in the face, the same way someone has a right to walk down the street without being sexually harassed.

Free speech cause a problem with your logic. I don't think we're at the point we're willing to give up free speech for the comfort of women. However, i categorically agree, if someone is shouting at woman in public she has a made an effort to alert, or remove herself, then that activity points towards sexual harassment.

Not wanting to be yelled at by strangers is pretty predictable. That's why street harassment is heavily frowned upon more and more these days.

Depends on where you are, but that' another conversation. I'm not condoning it, but it isn't "wrong" per se.

You're right, one, isolated catcall isn't really that big a deal. However, when every man in our society thinks that and thinks his one whistle or lewd comment is small and harmless, we end up with women who get catcalled multiple times a day, every day, because it's not a big deal, right? Then when the 20th man gets snapped at, he thinks she's overreacting, whereas she's at her wit's end. I know women who live in big cities and walk to work and many have told me that they've chosen to take longer-alternative routes that eat time out of their day to avoid street harassment. I think that's pretty unreasonable. Other kinds of harassment are also not tolerated by our society. If you walk to work every day and the same guy calls you an ugly asshole and says he's going to rob you, would you take an alternate route? Or would you call the police? Catcalling is a thread, whether you think of it as one or not. Catcalling is when a guy yells at a woman "I want to fuck you, I wish I was fucking you right now" because whatever he's actually saying, that's what he means. And that's a threat. Women have the right to decide who they sleep with, if at all.

Maybe you haven't witnessed cat calls. But usually they are just flippant displays of transient desire. "I want to fuck you" is implied, but as Chris Rock says "Dick is given in a variety of ways. ". By his logic, even opening the door is "I want to fuck you". If a girl is attractive that's what she has to deal with. Because of free speech, she doesn't really have a choice.

I'm not sure what you mean by this. Do you mean pushing past boundaries in the work place isn't sexual harassment?

I mean I wouldn't' call cat calling sexual harassment. I would call repeated cat calls, or once someone lady has expressed non interest attempting to force her to comply. In the work place, sexual harassment is defined very specifically. I don't believe those rules apply to the open, and vice versa.

[–]Abracadanielle4 points 12 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Free speech cause a problem with your logic. I don't think we're at the point we're willing to give up free speech for the comfort of women.

Free speech doesn't cover sexual harassment, in the same way it doesn't cover any other form of threat. And we are absolutely at the point where we're willing to "give up free speech the comfort of women", that is why sexual harassment is illegal. It's obvious that you, personally, don't think it should be, but it is.

Maybe you haven't witnessed cat calls.

I've done more than witness (which I also have), I have experienced catcalls, and I'm a little insulted at the notion that a woman should have to "deal with" the consequences of being attractive. Bullshit. No one should have to "deal with" harassment.

Also, Chris Rock is not a sociologist, and while I enjoy his comedy, I don't think his "dick is given in a variety of ways" schtick has any place in a serious debate about sexual harassment.

If a girl is attractive that's what she has to deal with. Because of free speech, she doesn't really have a choice.

That makes zero sense. Why do you think there are campaigns to stop street harassment? Why do you think I'm here in this thread trying to explain to you what sexual harassment is, even after you keep rejecting the definition, both in my own comments and others that I've seen you respond to? Women absolutely have a choice to speak up against it. I am, in fact, doing it right now.

[–]masterrod0 points 12 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Free speech doesn't cover sexual harassment, in the same way it doesn't cover any other form of threat. And we are absolutely at the point where we're willing to "give up free speech the comfort of women", that is why sexual harassment is illegal. It's obvious that you, personally, don't think it should be, but it is.

It's obvious that i don't think "cat" call falls as sexual harassment. I feel if a woman has made an effort to remove herself from the situation, and a guy persist then that falls inline with sexual harassment.

I've done more than witness (which I also have), I have experienced catcalls, and I'm a little insulted at the notion that a woman should have to "deal with" the consequences of being attractive. Bullshit. No one should have to "deal with" harassment.

That's how it is sir. She can change her dress but people are free to make comments about her in this world, and esp. in America. If they persist then she could be then be subject of harassment.

Also, Chris Rock is not a sociologist, and while I enjoy his comedy, I don't think his "dick is given in a variety of ways" schtick has any place in a serious debate about sexual harassment.

It does because what is he saying is that politeness is the another showing that you desire a lady. So a guy can openly be nice to a lady and over his penis to her, why can't he be crass and the same. If beautiful women truly against harassment she would not accept any random chivalry, and would then have leg to stand on some random cat call.

Keep in mind we both agree that persistence passed the point of her strong distaste is harassment.

That makes zero sense. Why do you think there are campaigns to stop street harassment? Why do you think I'm here in this thread trying to explain to you what sexual harassment is, even after you keep rejecting the definition, both in my own comments and others that I've seen you respond to? Women absolutely have a choice to speak up against it. I am, in fact, doing it right now.

Women can speak up against sexual harassment. But they can't win an argument that stops the free rights of individuals. The primary problem with sexual harassment is that it relates to the feelings of a woman. No on can predict how a woman would feel, so there isn't really a basis for an argument. Some guy saying ."You're beautiful" isn't exactly harassment.

I do believe that if man persists, beyond a showing of distaste that is harassment. It's good for women to speak about something they don't like as a collective, maybe even coach women not to respond. It's meaninglessness, guys will call out to girls, and they will approach girls. There isn't anything that's going to stop that.

[–]Abracadanielle3 points 12 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

I'm not sure if you're calling me "sir" ironically, but I've mentioned several times during our conversation that I'm a woman, and my flair also states this. That's what I meant by women speaking up against sexual harassment. I am a woman, and I am speaking up against it, to you, someone who has repeatedly denied that catcalling is sexual harassment.

Telling a woman she's beautiful isn't the same as street harassment. This site is very informative about street harassment. Here's another non-profit trying to spread awareness. Both of these organizations not only define catcalling/street harassment as sexual harassment, catcalling is their main focus. It seems to me like this has never been a serious issue in your life, but it is actually a very hot topic in progressive and/or feminist circles.

This is a strange debate for me. It's like debating whether or not slapping counts as an act of violence because it's not as bad as punching.

[–]redwhiskeredbubul1 point 12 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

I've had this discussion with people elsewhere, not real productively, and while I'm completely sympathetic to the goals of the organizations in question, where exactly do they define street harassment as sexual harassment? My impression from looking at the websites is that they're trying to definite it as a separate category that requires action, but not necessarily as sexual harassment as defined with the law.

I get the impression that there's ambiguity that comes in when sexual harassment in a legally actionable sense is confused with, well, harassment which is sexual. I think this contributes to misunderstandings because, well, from the point of view of the potential harasser (i.e. a man), you're threatening to invoke criminal and civil legal sanction. Put bluntly, sexual harassment from this perspective is first and foremost something you can get into deep shit for. To me this seems excessive and paternalistic (it sort of reminds me of stop-and-frisk in NYC) , but I can't really tell if it's what the organizations in question are calling for i.e. as opposed to an awareness campaign.

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I edited a small part in just now to clarify a bit in my previous post.

Manipulation is not dominance, in my opinion. If you are truly dominant, you don't need to play mindgames to reach your goal. If women want a dominant person, they'll want to be with you for being dominant. Not for being deceiving.

I also simply have to disagree with you that you feel manipulation is acceptable if it leads to good sex. That is subjective and I am not one to change your opinion, nor will you be able to change mine.

I also never stated I expect people to be 100% honest. But you should be honest in your intentions. That's an important difference. There's also a difference in not telling everything to the other person or having some 'white lies' and actively deceiving the other person with misinformation.

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[–]regtopolousRed Pill Man3 points4 points5 points 12 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

Plausible deniability is absolutely important.

Look, the thing is, I want to have sex with women, and so I understand that for them sex has to just "happen".

Consent is absolutely important. So we're not talking about rape. Let me make this clear that the sex is consensual. Consent is obtained and consent is sexy.

But texting a message of "Hey, I like you. Let's fuck tonight at 7pm baby. ;)"...

Well, if a BP woman would be charmed by a man doing that, rad. I think you're probably lying though.

What plausible deniability means is finding ways of having situations in which you can interact with someone, and have the potential for having things get sexual.

Grabbing a coffee to just chat can lead to fucking in some stairwells.

The whole purpose is to create a situation where a girl does not feel pressured into anything. You're not trying to force an outcome to happen.

Even though you really do, because you absolutely invited her out so you could ravish her because yes you do want your dick inside her. I mean, if there is a girl you are sexually attracted to, and you invited her out, please man, do not lie to me and tell me you do not want to fuck her. You are not sexually attracted to her if you are not wanting to fuck her.

So, you invite her out, and you grab coffee, and you slowly wander to places more and more private until the both of you are alone, and you've been warmed up and attracted to each other enough to kiss.

Oh wow. So now she asks you:

"Hey, so did you just take me out to this part of the park just to kiss me?"

"No way. I took you out here because I wanted to find out more about you, AND kiss you. "

See, now you can drop some of the pretences. Now you can actually express to the girl.

"Yes, I am attracted to you."

Because she's expressing it back to you as well.

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[–]polyhooly2 points3 points4 points 12 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

lets go home because your turning me on

This can be interpreted as being crass, and is putting pressure on someone. Many women will interpret it as you're just interested in a wham bam thank you ma'am. There is not necessarily anything wrong with this, either, and some women may be into that.

Ex: Ya I've been to tons of places, we should go back to my condo, I've got some great pictures of my trip to Hawaii that you should see. I'm starved, lets go back to my apartment and so I can cook us up some pasta.

This is not putting pressure on someone. It lets her know that you're interested in spending non-sexy time with her, getting to know her, that you're interested in more than just fucking. If your intention is to just fuck her, don't get all pissed at her if she says no (or as Red Pillers call it, LMR) if you went about the situation with the invitation of sharing traveling stories and photos and pasta.

she's very well aware what's going down

I think you're assuming too much.

[–]masterrodPops all pills when necessary. And keeps a heavy stash of RPs.[S] 0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]AbracadanielleBlue Pill Woman1 point2 points3 points 12 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link

I think it's fine so long as you acknowledge the possibility that some women out there will take the suggestion at face value. She might not have sex with you after all, if you only invited her over to look at your Hawaii pictures, recognize there is a possibility she will look at your pictures and then leave, and that she's done nothing wrong for it.

Also recognize that it can make you appear manipulative. You invite her home for some other reason than sex, then start making sexual advances, she could very well feel deceived.

Now if you're confident that she's interested, by all means, use a socially polite excuse to head to your place. That's pretty standard. Even if you're in a long term relationship with someone, you don't usually say "Let's go home out fuck" out loud in the restaurant. That's just simple etiquette.

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[–]AbracadanielleBlue Pill Woman1 point2 points3 points 12 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

Here is the beginning of the Wikipedia page on psychological manipulation:

Psychological manipulation is a type of social influence that aims to change the perception or behavior of others through underhanded, deceptive, or even abusive tactics.^[1] By advancing the interests of the manipulator, often at another's expense, such methods could be considered exploitative, abusive, devious, and deceptive. Social influence is not necessarily negative. For example, doctors can try to persuade patients to change unhealthy habits. Social influence is generally perceived to be harmless when it respects the right of the influenced to accept or reject and is not unduly coercive. Depending on the context and motivations, social influence may constitute underhanded manipulation.

So it depends on the circumstances. If a doctor is trying to persuade a stubborn or ill-informed patient to accept treatment that will save their life, that could be considered positive manipulation.

However we're talking about casual sex. The keywords in the linked quote above are underhanded, deceptive and abusive. Both underhanded and deceptive are synonymous with dishonorable, dishonest, unfair, ect.

So in this scenario, a man meets a woman at a bar, they hit it off, have some drinks, share some laughs, are flirting, ect. After a little while, the guy asks the girl if she wants to come back to his place with him. The girls says, in an arguably flirty way "Why, are you trying to get in my pants? I don't sleep around after just meeting someone." Then the guy says "No, I've just got this cool thing to show you. We don't have to do anything."

This is the important moment right here. The guy has now put himself in the situation where he is assuming the girl is being coy, and is actually interested. Both people involved right now have taken a risk. The guy is risking not getting laid, by having told the girl he doesn't want to fuck her (even though he does) in the hopes that she'll decide to have sex anyways after saying she wouldn't. The girl is risking her safety, putting her trust in the guy by going to his place, trusting that he'll respect her boundaries, whatever they may be. And women do have interests and hobbies, and whatever excuse he's made to get her back to his place might actually be something she's interested in. A movie she likes or pictures of Hawaii or whatever. And even if she's not planning to sleep with him that night, such a mutual interest is something she's probably filing away mentally and could influence her desire to get to know him better and sleep with him later.

Anyways, back to why manipulation is bad. Trust is important in any relationship, sexual or otherwise. Serious, or otherwise. Even with a one-night-stand, trust is in play. Manipulation is a breach of trust. Manipulation is when you lie to get laid. So when the girl goes back to the guy's apartment, they have another drink and he starts to get handsy with her and she resists and he says "Why did you come back to my place if you didn't want to mess around?"

Because he invited her back to look at Hawaii pictures. And she trusted that he meant that. And now that she knows he lied about wanting to share something with her, that he only wanted to get in her pants and didn't actually care about her conversation or company, she wonders what else he lied about that night. Probably everything. It was probably all about getting laid. And that feels pretty bad, that realization that the person you've been spending time with was being disingenuous. She feels hurt and leaves. Or worse, she gets guilted or pressured into sex she didn't want. And that's an awful feeling. You feel dirty, used.

Of course, maybe she was playing coy and she is receptive to the advances and everyone's happy. But you don't know for sure what's going through her mind and it is incredibly dangerous to assume that a woman is just being coy when she says she's not interested.

And I also want to address the notion that a woman will turn down going home with a guy because she wants to have sex but is afraid of being labeled a slut. I get so annoyed any time I see that line of reasoning mentioned. It's such a ridiculous oversimplification. There are almost an infinite number of reasons why a woman might turn down sex with a guy she's attracted to. Maybe her stomach isn't feeling well. Maybe she's on her period. Maybe she's casually seeing someone else and she doesn't want to mess that up. Maybe she knows she's had too much to drink and wants to clear her head before she decides to fuck him. Maybe he reminds her of someone she wouldn't have sex with, like a relative, and that would be weird. Maybe there's some good chemistry there but he's said something that was a deal breaker, not enough to walk away but she wouldn't sleep with him because of it, like political opinions. Maybe she's due for her bi-yearly pap smear and would rather wait until she gets her results back before sleeping with someone. Maybe it's been a while since she's gone out and she hasn't shaved in months and would rather do that before sleeping with someone new. Maybe she has to be up early for work. Or a test. Or an appointment. Or she promised to help someone move. Maybe she has a friend who she promised to be there for, who is mourning, who is going through a breakup. Maybe she's Catholic and she gave up sex for Lent. My point is that it could be anything.

But being seen as a slut? By who? By the guy trying to get in her pants? By the other random people at the bar? Why should she care what random strangers think? And why should she worry about the guy trying to fuck her thinking she's slutty? Isn't he, you know, trying to fuck her? That concept just doesn't make sense to me.

[–]masterrodPops all pills when necessary. And keeps a heavy stash of RPs.[S] -1 points0 points1 point 12 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

I think you make some good points about manipulation. And how manipulation has a fine line. I think we could talk more about why manipulation is bad when it's applied to picking up women. Espcially, if the intent is as benign as a sexual encounter.

And I also want to address the notion that a woman will turn down going home with a guy because she wants to have sex but is afraid of being labeled a slut. I get so annoyed any time I see that line of reasoning mentioned. It's such a ridiculous oversimplification. There are almost an infinite number of reasons why a woman might turn down sex with a guy she's attracted to. Maybe her stomach isn't feeling well. Maybe she's on her period. Maybe she's casually seeing someone else and she doesn't want to mess that up. Maybe she knows she's had too much to drink and wants to clear her head before she decides to fuck him. Maybe he reminds her of someone she wouldn't have sex with, like a relative, and that would be weird. Maybe there's some good chemistry there but he's said something that was a deal breaker, not enough to walk away but she wouldn't sleep with him because of it, like political opinions. Maybe she's due for her bi-yearly pap smear and would rather wait until she gets her results back before sleeping with someone. Maybe it's been a while since she's gone out and she hasn't shaved in months and would rather do that before sleeping with someone new. Maybe she has to be up early for work. Or a test. Or an appointment. Or she promised to help someone move. Maybe she has a friend who she promised to be there for, who is mourning, who is going through a breakup. Maybe she's Catholic and she gave up sex for Lent. My point is that it could be anything. But being seen as a slut? By who? By the guy trying to get in her pants? By the other random people at the bar? Why should she care what random strangers think? And why should she worry about the guy trying to fuck her thinking she's slutty? Isn't he, you know, trying to fuck her? That concept just doesn't make sense to me.

It's male perspective simplification. It's way for guys failing at pickup a lady to go back to teh drawing board, and prepare an acceptable "offense".

You're overshadowing the amount of shame has for many women in the western world. The slut is to herself, her friends, or strangers.

But let's take your view, you go out with a girl and she shuts you down. What goes through your head? And how do you build on that experience for the next one?

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My experience is the opposite, but it maybe just how as I look at the situation. Because a girl can't predict how pleasurable she'll feel, how comfortable insertion will be, nor how easily it will be for her to leave if she needs to.

I think women have the desire to avoid looking like a slut in front of their friends, but it's permissible in closed doors.

I think the "slut defense" is just another way for men to understand women's actions, without totally understanding them. IMO slut defense just makes sense. It's akin guys avoiding looking like a punk when they're scared shitless to do something, so I just got to make sure that happens: talk to her friends, be playful with her, test the waters, etc. On the other hand, If you describe the same scenario but say a girl needs to feel pleasure, comfort, and safety, then i'm immediately confused. All of those those ideas are bit esoteric to most men. We do things that are uncomfortable, and we're expected to do so. We are expected to do things that are dangerous, we're talking to a strange woman with the thought of sticking our dick in side of her. And safety,first thought for most men is condoms, and wallet. Besides, when a gets shut down, he can't learn from "she wasn't comfortable,etc." Cause what the hell does that mean? She could be uncomfortable for 1 million reasons, even when his game ultra smooth and tight. But he can learn from "slut defense".

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link

[–]masterrodPops all pills when necessary. And keeps a heavy stash of RPs.[S] 0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points3 points 12 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

I'm not entirely sure what you mean by buying temperature but yeah, I'm talking about when I've got a pretty good idea she's interested.

The thing is just not to beg or pressure people or presume any particular reaction. You proposition someone expecting anything from a "yeah totally" to "no" or a tentative "...uhh maybe" and then whatever reaction you need to be able to say "thats cool" and really mean it.

Its not the expression of sexual interest that turns people off, its the feeling like you are pushing towards something that makes them want to put on the brakes.

Put it in such a way that you are placing yourself in the vulnerable position of rejection, its the opposite of aggressive. Youre putting your balls on the line by going first in broaching the topic of sex, and that makes it ok for her.

Women love talking about sex, girls will tell all kinds of fantasies if you just seem like someone who's cool to talk about it with, and that leads to the best kind of hookups, when you can talk about all the nasty shit you want to do to each other before she comes round to yours.

[–]masterrodPops all pills when necessary. And keeps a heavy stash of RPs.[S] 1 point2 points3 points 12 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

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[–]masterrodPops all pills when necessary. And keeps a heavy stash of RPs.[S] 0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–][deleted]3 points 12 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]masterrodPops all pills when necessary. And keeps a heavy stash of RPs.[S] 0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

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[–]masterrodPops all pills when necessary. And keeps a heavy stash of RPs.[S] -1 points0 points1 point 12 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

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[–]roe_Purple Pill Man-1 points0 points1 point 12 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

[–]masterrodPops all pills when necessary. And keeps a heavy stash of RPs.[S] 0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

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[–]masterrodPops all pills when necessary. And keeps a heavy stash of RPs.[S] -1 points0 points1 point 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]IIHotelYorbatreats objects like women-2 points-1 points0 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Title	What does PPD think about "Plausible Deniability"?
Author	masterrod
Upvotes	6
Comments	188
Date	January 20, 2014 7:06 PM UTC (12 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/PurplePillDebate
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/1voxu7/what_does_ppd_think_about_plausible_deniability/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/PurplePillDebate/what-does-ppd-think-about-plausible-deniability.286340 https://theredarchive.com/post/286340