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[–]actionabz 7 points8 points9 points 10 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
I definitely agree there has to be a level of physical attraction, I always say "give them a reason to look but also a reason to stay". Looking good makes you feel good and women pick up on this initially cos it stems back to a primal instinct in us to want and be attracted to the hottest of the pack. All those pity posts about not finding any girl in college won't make you feel better about your situation unless you head down to the gym once in a while and pledge to become better than yesterday.
[–]Psychocist 1 point2 points3 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
I think of this way - appearance gets attention, personality keeps it.
[–]cream12 4 points5 points6 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
/r/malefashionadvice
/r/fitness /r/gainit
[–]redinkinc 4 points5 points6 points 10 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link
controversial!My opinion at the moment (through life experience, although i'm willing to be proved wrong. In fact i'd love it, ideally though my own experiences!) is that 'game' can help you 'seal the deal' with girls who think you are good looking, but it can't help you get a girl in bed if she think you're flat out ugly.
[–]vardarac 2 points3 points4 points 10 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
When I was in San Francisco, I lived in a group house with this chef who was fat and played World of Warcraft most of his time at home. Doesn't sound like a typical ladies' man.
But there were things that set him apart from a typical nerdy stereotype. He was kind of aloof and had this air of "I don't have time for bullshit" about him, and he was tatted up and had gauge earrings and fairly good hair. If he liked you (he didn't like me), the "don't waste my time" vibe would drop and he'd open up quite warm.
I would later overhear this guy talking about how he had sex with a Suicide Girl, and how he found that looking at and talking to women like they were just any other regular old person was how you got them to like you.
Sure, any of us could call bullshit on him, but I'm inclined to believe he was telling the truth.
[–]redinkinc 1 point2 points3 points 10 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
that's cool. I mean, personally, my way of explaining it is slightly different. When someone talks about how looks matter and a girl needs to find you at least somewhat physically attractive for you to have a shot (my belief at the moment), people automatically think that you need to look like Brad Pitt. That all girls only find people who look like brad pitt handsome, and nobody else.
I think that there is a fair amount of variety in what girls find attractive physically, but it is STILL the fact that they find you physically attractive that gives you most of your success.
I once had a very hot model who is probably a 9 (I'd say i'm about a 5-5.5). I had never read anything about 'game' either. She just thought I was hot for some unknown reason. She said I had a nice smile and nice eyes, even though I COMPLETELY disagree, and i'm sure most people would disagree, too!
[–]TheStumblingWolf 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Sometimes it doesn't take much either. I had a friend teach me how to dress. When I started dressing better women at work would actually pull me aside and, as a group, explain to me how they'd noticed my new style and how much they liked it. Sometimes when I wear new clothes it happens all over again, and this is considering the fact that I have a long way to go lifting wise and all that.
[–][deleted] 10 years ago (12 children) | Copy Link
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[–]time_and_again 2 points3 points4 points 10 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link
Yeah this rings true for me. Sorting all this external stuff out is important and goes hand-in-hand with building a better life for yourself, but after months/years of lifting and exercise, thousands of dollars in revamping your wardrobe, and just as much in fixing your teeth, you can still walk into a night spot surrounded by beautiful women and feel powerless. You'll be the best looking chump in the building. Congrats.
I know because I recently crashed and burned in that same way. I bought into the idea that "getting your shit together" was the path to success, that it would suddenly become easy just because I looked good. But unless I get out there and take my knocks--really take 'em, not just getting a few tepid rejections and numbers--all these new clothes and haircuts and fat bank statements don't mean a thing. Part of that is also fixing my outlook on the whole things as well, that is switching from a mindset of pure pragmatic "if this, then this" (which these types of communities can create) to something more carefree and curious.
There's no easy road. Only real question is how to have fun while you're taking the hits.
[–]Aeon199 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link
What do you mean by "take your knocks"? Are you saying you spent loads of effort to look really good, dress well, built your muscles up, etc. and are finding that a lot of women run away from you or give you embarrassing rejections?
What's the use in it, if you put all this effort in, just to get your self-esteem crushed?
[–]time_and_again 1 point2 points3 points 10 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
Like /u/Big_TX said, game comes first. It's true that game will be an uphill struggle without looks or money, but you don't save yourself any work by "focusing on yourself" unless that includes going out, striking out, and trying again without bitterness.
I got a stylist, majorly upgraded my look, and kept at it with weights and cardio, but I let myself believe that was enough, that now because I'd fixed these specific things and improved myself, game would come easier. Like I could go up and just say "Hi" and things would go swimmingly. I was setting myself up for more major disappointment. And true enough, my approaches sucked and became fewer and further between.
Unfortunately, it's easy to slip back into the belief that love is a meritocracy and that we'll be rewarded just for being a great catch. But that's like moving to a new city, buying a sweet pad, setting up an amazing party, and wondering why no one's showing up. Until you get better at making friends and getting them to join in, the great party doesn't matter. That's how I think about it.
[–]Aeon199 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
Okay, I get what you're saying.
What would you say is the major stumbling block in your "game" currently, then?
[–]time_and_again 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Major stumbling block? Having fun with it. I had a breakup last year that seemed minor at first, but I think it unearthed a lot of unexamined shit in my life. Been a rough year since then. I've had trouble being positive and optimistic when going out, which pretty much kills the motivation. I could get past approach anxiety pretty regularly because the idealism was there, but getting past approach nihilism? It's a bit more of a struggle.
[–]Big_TX 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
He is saying you have to have game. You can't compensate for bad game with good looks and clothes. He maximized himself esthetics you and it didn't help because he didn't improve his game.
Game is more powerful than looks. I defenently think looks is important. Unless your game is on point, I think looks account for much more than 5%.
[–]dougsherman 1 point2 points3 points 10 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link
Way to be nuanced. There can be a middle ground between thinking looks "literally don't matter AT ALL" and that they're the only thing that matters(which wasn't what the OP said or implied). Call it discouraging if you want but if you're out of shape, wear ill-fitting clothes, etc, there are lots of girls that would otherwise at least stop and talk with you, that will instead blow you off.
That doesn't mean you need to get cosmetic surgery or workout 6x a week. It just means you should be doing your best, to improve yourself in those areas as much as possible. I also had the sobering realization that losing weight and improving my looks didn't immediately get me girls, but there's quite a gulf between that, and saying that looks don't matter at all(or only slightly). Realize that there are guys on the other side, who haven't gone through the process of improving themselves, and will buy into the idea that your appearance/lifestyle/etc doesn't matter, as long as you have game. It isn't true.
[–][deleted] 10 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link
[–]Aeon199 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link
So you think that good looks don't guarantee much (if anything) on their own, and that game--confident interaction with women--is the most important thing. Fair enough.
But would you add other requirements to that list? Is having a social network, status, a good job required?
Now I'm way behind in terms of interaction with women, with social anxiety and some autistic qualities.. but I do have average looks, and I'm aware there is a NARROW audience (as in, it's there, but it's a small subgroup of women) that likes my look.
What I'm trying to ask is if I can find these women who like my features, and learn how to interact with women through lots of difficult trial-and-error.. would that be good enough? The other things--social network, ambition, good job, achievements--are mostly out of reach if we're being realistic.
[–]Big_TX 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
You absolutely do not need to limit yourself to women who like your look.
Women can be totally into you reguardless of your look. Many will value a guy with other arowsing qualities much higher than a guy with out them but with good looks.
Also you don't need a social life and good job to get laid. They help a lot with a girlfriend. And they will make you feel better about yourself.
Idk why you think having a good job is out of the question. Go to trade school learn a good trade. Now you have a real job with decent income. Save at least 10% of your income (ideally more) and invest it in a decertified portfolio (don't buy mutual funds they generally suck) and then rebalance your port folio every month.
Or learn sales and move up. Or work at a start up, go the extra mile. Become essential and gain many other skills there. Then you will be able to make a lot in the company once it grows, or you can take your skills to an established company.
Or get a job at a company that likes to hire internally. Work behind the rest at 24 hr fitness. Learn the memberships. Become a membership clincher, then apply to become a service manager at another location (move there) then apply to be a club manager at when there is an opening st a different place. Then a reagional manager. Then you can stay there or leave. But now you are WAY higher up the corporate ladder. And you have way more skills.
I'm sure there are more companies that are much better about internal promotion.
Don't look for dead ends and steps tools. Look for ladders and elevators. And try to gain skills through work. When a job says "needs 2 years experience" that is complete BS.
[–]Aeon199 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
I appreciate your advice, but I feel you may not understand the significant limitations I have.. you seem to have some concept of me as an "average guy" when actually I have fundamental problems functioning in daily life.
It might be realistic to say that the most I could handle would be a low wage (or minimum wage) job, and I'd be in my 30s, at that. It's possible I might not even have the skills to live independently, given my issues.
We have to be realistic. I'd love to sit here and agree that I could "get a sales job and climb up the ladder" but you are looking at someone with a social skills deficiency, and some mild learning issues which really get in the way.
I could also be pessimistic like I usually am and say "I'll probably never lose the V-card," what's the use of me reading this sub or trying to improve at all, etc.
But I'll be a little more positive. My way to hooking-up with women is probably going to be unorthodox, I'll have to learn to embellish my "lesser qualities" or even lie about some things, I'll have to maximize the things within my control (fitness, presentation, etc.), and I'll have to find some kind of specific target audience of women (a very narrow one) that do not require a guy to have status to hop into bed.
At least my aims are not particularly ambitious: the aim is casual relations, one night stands, or whatever. Obviously, I'm aware that LTRs are just not going to happen, and I don't even care anyway because I couldn't handle the emotional complexity of it with the social demands.
[–]youre-so-money 1 point2 points3 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Couldn't agree more. In fact I think "game" is wildly overrated, and frankly not something you should spend any time on, assuming you are even marginally socially competent.
[–]Gustav_Sirvah 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
But point is - when I will be sure that my fundamentals are ready? Of course that obesity, messy clothes,body odour or bad hair are big no-no's. But it really needs to get myself to look like "mister universe pretender"? I don't think so. When good is good enough?
Good enough Is good enough. It's all about your game and vibe. You can be really hot but if your game sucks you won't get anywhere. If you look like Chris hemsworth you could probably get away with having no game a normal hot guy can't.
[–]EarthquakeBass -1 points0 points1 point 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
When women start complimenting you on your haircut, shoes, outfit etc unprompted.
[–]Cesare_MA 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
It has taken me a very, very long time to develop a good fashion sense, one that's constantly evolving. Was it worth it? No doubt about it. I have my own style and never walk around in sweats or anything like that. It takes a while to develop, but time is going to pass anyways isn't it?
[–]vardarac 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link
get jacked phaggot
Still have yet to take this advice...
[–]EarthquakeBass 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
It's not about "getting jacked". It's about being healthy and fit enough to feel good and be attractive.
[–]vardarac 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
It's about being healthy and fit enough to feel good and be attractive
So... Jacked
[–]ZephyrBluu 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Umm no. I'm not jacked but I'm definitely in shape and feel good about it.
[–]Clyde_Frag 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Really surprised this is being upvoted. Yes being in good shape and having good fashion sense helps. But if you're not confident and never put yourself in a position to meet women and keep them interested, then that shit doesn't matter.
[–]j2598 -1 points0 points1 point 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
There's a sweet spot to the excuse fundamentals of money, health and love. Too much and the return in investment diminishes.
What's the sweet spot income? What's the sweet spot on good looks?
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[–]actionabz 7 points8 points9 points (1 child) | Copy Link
[–]Psychocist 1 point2 points3 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]cream12 4 points5 points6 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]redinkinc 4 points5 points6 points (3 children) | Copy Link
[–]vardarac 2 points3 points4 points (2 children) | Copy Link
[–]redinkinc 1 point2 points3 points (1 child) | Copy Link
[–]TheStumblingWolf 0 points1 point2 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–][deleted] (12 children) | Copy Link
[–]time_and_again 2 points3 points4 points (5 children) | Copy Link
[–]Aeon199 0 points1 point2 points (4 children) | Copy Link
[–]time_and_again 1 point2 points3 points (2 children) | Copy Link
[–]Aeon199 0 points1 point2 points (1 child) | Copy Link
[–]time_and_again 0 points1 point2 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]Big_TX 0 points1 point2 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]dougsherman 1 point2 points3 points (5 children) | Copy Link
[–][deleted] (4 children) | Copy Link
[–]Aeon199 0 points1 point2 points (3 children) | Copy Link
[–]Big_TX 0 points1 point2 points (1 child) | Copy Link
[–]Aeon199 0 points1 point2 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]youre-so-money 1 point2 points3 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]Gustav_Sirvah 0 points1 point2 points (2 children) | Copy Link
[–]Big_TX 0 points1 point2 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]EarthquakeBass -1 points0 points1 point (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]Cesare_MA 0 points1 point2 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]vardarac 0 points1 point2 points (3 children) | Copy Link
[–]EarthquakeBass 0 points1 point2 points (2 children) | Copy Link
[–]vardarac 0 points1 point2 points (1 child) | Copy Link
[–]ZephyrBluu 0 points1 point2 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]Clyde_Frag 0 points1 point2 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]j2598 -1 points0 points1 point (0 children) | Copy Link