Why do you think the seduction community has gotten such a bad reputation recently?

vellyr · 2012-05-17T14:34:14+00:00

I had a rather interesting discussion about it on /r/askwomen the other day. The primary offenders are LMR, the HB scale, and negging (which nobody here recommends anyway). They have a very strong idea in their heads from somewhere that PU is immoral, dishonest, and encourages rape. They think that we have some kind of voodoo mind control that we use to prey on helpless women and somehow "trick" them into having sex with us (ironically this shows an underestimation of females' true willpower).

They think that being a PUA means using canned routines instead of being yourself, and often and loudly assert that "it doesn't work on me". I tried to politely explain what pickup actually is, but I was violently downvoted into the middle of next week.

Tenmagnet · 2012-05-17T12:51:28+00:00

First of all, as someone who has been in this scene since before the beginning, the "Seduction Community" has always gotten very mixed press. I think there are a bunch of reasons.

1 - Some (loud) people in the seduction community are huge jerks.

2 - Male sexuality is viewed as threatening.

3 - Some people in the community advocate creepy things and bad attitudes. Some examples are rating women by numbers, encouraging "field reports" (which violate taboos about bragging and discretion), being secretive and making outrageous claims, disrespecting women, etc.

4 - Ass wollff above says, some guys in the community are Dumb Mysogynist Assholes.

Personally, I've had media come to my seminars on numerous occasions, and they've almost always had 100% positive things to say. Sometimes there's a bit of negativity, either because they had reservations about what we teach, or more often (they tell me), because editors demand "balance" in their coverage - an article is more interesting and credible if it starts on a high note, goes into something dark, and then ends leaving the reader debating what he thinks about the subject.

Also, FWIW one thing we've noticed at Love Systems is that female reporters give us the best press, while the small amount of bad press we have gotten has always been from men who harbor fairly traditional views of female sexuality.

P.s. I put "Seduction Community" in quotes because I don't really like the term. It's a bunch of diverse communities, which often have almost nothing to do with one another. Would you talk about the "health community", or the "making money community"?

Wollff · 2012-05-17T10:36:09+00:00

Because a good chunk of the seduction community consists of Dumb Misogynist Assholes (DMA).

Let's be honest: DMAs exist. And there probably is nothing more attractive to someone like that than the promise of having a harem of subservient female sex slaves.

That's a promise seasoned PUAs are all too ready to give. Just do a 3-day workshop with them, give them a not so tiny bit of your money, and you will get your harem! Maybe you even get a certificate with "PUA" printed on it.

That sounds incredibly easy. It ignores all the work, practice, and difficulties that go along with trying to learn real game. And that's what attracts DMAs, and makes them into DMAs who call themselves PUAs.

Science proves: Dumb people are more certain of their opinions. Experience indicates: Dumb people shout out their opinions the loudest.

So guess which kind of PUA will get that place on the talk show: The one claiming that the PUA lifestyle is equally about girls, as it is about fulfillment, self improvement, and a good time for everyone involved? Or the guy who goes on about banging worthless sluts every day of he week? Oh, and the second one has a PUA certificate.

tl;dr: The seduction community is considered misogynist because of misogynists.

TofuTofu · 2012-05-17T08:10:01+00:00

Increased exposure and publicity.

SpermJackalope · 2012-05-17T04:30:03+00:00

Let's count the ways: Rating women with numbers, basing your own self worth off of how sexually successful you are, and that whole thing where you analyze women and play off their insecurities . . . Oh, also the concept of "LMR", which everyone else refers to as "a women saying she doesn't want to have sex, at which point you respect her decision and stop trying to bed her, rather than pressuring or manipulating her into it".

anubus72 · 2012-05-17T06:46:54+00:00

Male sexuality is seen as predatory, female sexuality as passive. Females (in many species, not just human) evolve sexual resistance, men evolve sexual predation and more extravagent seduction, both forms of evolution strengthen the individual's sexual success. Humans just have a hard time separating their biological desires from their concious desires. Feminism is, in my opinion, nothing more than an extension of the evolved female sexual resistance. I just find it ironic that it actually helps high quality / alpha males get better sexual results than could without it.

frogma · 2012-05-17T14:15:36+00:00

I don't think the reputation came recently -- it basically started with Mystery (and IMO the hate has been declining ever since). It might be more "visible" now because more people know about it and can easily blog about it or whatever.

90% of shit in the community is perfectly fine, not morally reprehensible in any way. The other 10% is at least questionable (though in my experience your views of it are gonna be based on some sort of misunderstanding). Sometimes people are intellectually dishonest, so they completely ignore the morally righteous 90%, and write 5-page essays about the 10% of shit. Other people try to be fair, so they'll say "I like A, B, and C about the community. Those are great. But let me tell you why XYZ is so terrible."

Also, when it comes to the "community" as a whole, it's not like anyone ever bashes David Wygant or other dating coaches like him. He's not very "visible" in the community. Most people's knowledge of the community comes from seeing pictures of Mystery looking ridiculous, or from a ridiculous VH1 show, or in many cases, from reading other articles where people bash the community. How do I know? Because people most commonly mention negs, LMR, other stupid shit like that -- of course, if they actually had spent any amount of time on seddit, they'd know how we feel about negs (and they'd stop using it as a fuckin example of how morally corrupt we supposedly are).

People also tend to exaggerate the prevalence of certain things, or make misrepresentations (as seen in this thread). Spermjackalope (who clearly isn't biased in any way) mentioned "basing your own self worth off of how sexually successful you are." My question would be: Who's doing that? Or does he just assume it's an inherent value here (his phrasing gives that impression)? It's already been said thousands of times that you shouldn't be doing that, and if you are, you need to work on developing a healthier mindset. Spermjackalope probably didn't develop his opinion based on any advice he's seen here. He came to that opinion most likely from some outside sources, or from his own interpretation of "seduction" as a whole. But notice the method with which he's "counting" the negative aspects of seduction -- he paints in very broad strokes (making generalizations), makes a few misrepresentations, and then puts all of his focus on those same misrepresentations. His points aren't exactly wrong, but the way he argues them makes it easy to see how other "outsiders" end up developing certain views about the community (because someone like him might make these same arguments outside the community, and that's the only thing these other people see -- so they base their opinion off what this guy just told them).

In the media, people like to use "characters." It's hard to use David Wygant as a "character" (except in Hitch, where his character was a decent person, with some flaws). Whereas it's very easy to use Mystery as a character. He already wears ridiculous clothes and has a weird, pretty arrogant personality. He's practically begging to be ridiculed. It's like if you want to make fun of men's rights activists, you focus on the guys who legitimately hate women and want to repeal voting rights or whatever. If you want to make fun of the feminist community, you focus on the women who legitimately hate men and spout crazy bullshit. It's easy to bash those people, and much harder to bash the "moderates" (who probably don't even share most of the ideas being used as examples).

Omnipotentgrape · 2012-05-17T03:08:00+00:00

Links to the hate please? Not trying to debunk, just genuinely curious.

keikenamarinai · 2012-05-17T06:25:09+00:00

Bandwagoning. Now let me tell you how much I hate Twilight and like Nutella.

CrankRED · 2012-05-17T20:01:32+00:00

maybe because its getting better.

20 years ago all the books and what not were useless. now with the information age real progress has been made.

iznou · 2012-05-17T22:14:43+00:00

Why is it called the "seduction community" anyway? Why are there 55,000 people who need to learn how to seduce women? Why not a simple relationship forum?

The answers to these questions will help you understand why the seduction community has such a bad reputation.

The real question, though, is why WOULDN'T people have a snap reaction against such a community and WHY WOULD IT BE A BAD THING ANYWAY? You really want a mainstream seduction community?

dantaeos · 2012-05-17T17:19:38+00:00

Why should I care what other people out there think? They are the ones with the insecurities.

2012-05-17T21:52:06+00:00

Maybe this stuff is more known (and practiced) than it was 10 years ago. So people are more likely to spot it for what it is when they see it happening around them. This combined that when it is obviously enough for them to pick up on it, they are probably dealing with someone who is not very skilled.

I've seen enough boys running around trying out their skills and failing miserably. This colors the perception of the general public.

ThrowawayPUA · 2012-05-17T05:49:30+00:00

I think some of it is from stupid TV shows like Keys to the VIP. Also critics like some of the feminist blogs found it was an easy target, their audience of women liked their being indignant at the picture of the community the critics portrayed (misleadingly). Everyone loves to exploit the seduction community for their own publicity and profit, especially the critics.

Whisper · 2012-05-17T05:20:52+00:00

jibes from feminist writers, the mainstream press, and even xkcd.

There's your answer right there.

Feminists, feminists, and more feminists. And they don't like men having power over sex. The reason the seduction community is getting more flak is not because it's doing anything differently, but because it is gaining popularity.

First they ignore you, then laugh at you and hate you, then they fight you, then you win.

Tall_Is_All_You_Need · 2012-05-18T00:50:19+00:00

Because haters will always hate.

No one wants to be accountable for themselves, whether it's their physical being, their accomplishments (or lack thereof), or some quality they were born with that they either inherently hate or that society has trained them to hate.

Ugly/fat women will always be mad at "hot girls."

Weak-ass men will always be jealous of and lash out at "naturals" or those with "good genes."

The seduction community, as I see it, sits at the apex of sexual desire, ambition, and personal accountability.

Title	Why do you think the seduction community has gotten such a bad reputation recently?
Author	throwayweigh
Upvotes	9
Comments	51
Date	May 17, 2012 3:04 AM UTC (14 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/seduction
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/seduction/comments/tr2p1/why_do_you_think_the_seduction_community_has/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/seduction/why-do-you-think-the-seduction-community-has.1332812 https://theredarchive.com/post/1332812

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