Gender roles...

MonkeyCB · 2015-08-08T16:41:28+00:00

Why would men support gender roles? Women have ditched theirs over 50 years ago, and men are still expected to conform to theirs. If anything, men should be against gender roles. And a lot of them (even non MRM) are starting to reject them.

azazelcrowley · 2015-08-08T14:32:34+00:00

We don't support gender roles, i'm pretty sure. The only times i've seen that shit thrown out it's been heavily downvoted and usually from someone with redpill in their name. I HAVE seen people argue that if people want a traditional relationship that's their own business, and that's entirely true, even if I personally think that it's wildly imbalanced.

2015-08-08T18:27:01+00:00

Ugh, between the MRM and feminism, the only movement that seems to blog all the time about how I should just 'man up' and get back in my traditional role is feminist.

So, that accusation is kind of ironic.

blueXcat · 2015-08-08T15:07:26+00:00

It's obviously the opposite.

BUT, I see men's rights as a place where a point made is that men can chose to follow gender roles, as much as not following them

Feminism on the other end, as a problem with women following traditional rolws

belil569 · 2015-08-08T17:34:52+00:00

Why dont we let people pick their own roles in the damned relationship. My wife is happy to be at home with our child for some time. I would have loved to be as well but I make more (because I actually put an extra decade into my work) and financially it makes sense for me to work and her to stay home for now.

I work 10-16 hr days so yeah, she cleans and cooks as best she can while looking after our child. My day off a week I do my part, (usually a full day with the little one). Traditional or not, she picked this. I offered to do it if she took some overtime to cover costs. We as a family make the choice.

I think either side telling others to abandon traditional practices is just stupid. Its different for every one.

*Incoming downvotes for not agreeing with the hivemind.

onyonn · 2015-08-08T20:09:12+00:00

Part of what we're fighting against is male disposability, which is very much part of the male gender role.

I think the problem comes from a lot of people over there confusing us with TRP, or thinking that anything except 'gender role elimination' (or something close to that) 'promotes traditional gender roles'.

As usual, people have difficulty understanding there is a spectrum instead of a binary. In the spectrum from 'gender role elimination' to 'traditionalism', MRAs are probably cluster somewhere in the middle.

There are three related but different issues.

To what extent can we change gender roles?
To what extent do we want to change gender roles?
If we want to equalize an aspect of gender roles, do we move women towards the expectation of men, or women towards the expectation of men?

To many feminists, it seems that the answers to these questions are usually 1) 'entirely', 2) 'entirely', and 3) 'bring men towards the female role', and anything else is being a 'traditionalist'.

Of course, this last answer usually isn't applied to the protective role, which is still assigned to the male gender by feminists and non-feminists alike.

Most of the people on this sub are going to believe that gender roles come from a combination of nature and nurture(a moderate position), as opposed to those in feminism that believe that all gender roles originate in culture (an extreme position).

If you believe that gender roles have some basis in biology, then you're going to believe that, in aggregate, those differences can't be eliminated entirely.

This doesn't mean that we can't make them less extreme.

Edit: formatting

morerokk · 2015-08-09T00:59:56+00:00

Quite the opposite. I'm an MRA, and I fervently oppose traditional gender roles.

Or rather, I oppose the enforcing of said roles. People should be allowed to choose whatever they want. If I want to live with more modern gender roles, then I'd like that choice to be respected.

I don't want people to call me a "fucking pussy" because I'm not a dominant alpha male who brings home the money.

If anything, feminists are the ones promoting traditional gender roles (but only for men, because it suits them better that way).

GenderNeutralLanguag · 2015-08-08T17:28:10+00:00

They are tripping over their own double speak.

Most MRA recognize that it's important to have gender roles of some sort. Men and women are not groups with a distinction but no difference. Men and women are different.

Most MRA don't support the traditional gender roles that held males to be disposable utilities that provide for women. Many feminists get lost when you talk about any sort of gender role and assume if your not infavor of pretending there are NO sex difference, the only other option is traditionalism.

augustfell · 2015-08-09T02:29:05+00:00

I think MRM is split on this one, with the most outspoken being against.

However, if you believe in a genetic basis of gender differences you have to acknowledge that free people will tend to conform to traditional roles by simply pursuing their own preferences, and elimination of such roles would require countervailing ideology or legislation.

GroovyGoblin · 2015-08-08T15:01:23+00:00

I'm pretty sure gender roles is exactly what harms us all because it's what divides us (besides the obvious) between men and women to the eyes of our societies.

Take the traditional gender roles away and there are no reasons why people should expect specific things from people because they're men or because they're women. That'd be a huge step in the right direction, in my opinion.

anticapitalist · 2015-08-08T15:43:27+00:00

is that the MRM usually promotes traditional gender roles.

It's nonsense. eg:

Sex. Men would love if women started "putting out" like men (frequently), & so on.
And men would love to act natural (eg gentle) instead of the "tough & confident guy" act to impress women.

Both these "gender roles" (and many more) are created by women.

Women generally withhold/control sex in order to get benefits. They date tough guys, etc. I could give endless more examples.

Practically all our gender roles come from women.

Yet men get blamed.

MRSPArchiver · 2015-08-08T14:20:14+00:00

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xynomaster · 2015-08-08T20:42:50+00:00

I wish it were less so, but I think a lot of the MRM do promote traditional gender roles.

Look at the comments people made on this article about removing gender roles for the perfect example: https://www.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/3g8a91/5_ways_to_raise_your_kid_gender_neutral_dont_buy/

Tmomp · 2015-08-08T22:26:33+00:00

promotes traditional gender roles

There's a long tradition of pursuing equality between the sexes and I promote it. I don't think that's what they mean, but I still believe equality has a tradition and I support it.

Blutarg · 2015-08-08T22:58:03+00:00

That's one of the typical criticisms of this movement, but it's hogwash.

OmegaParticle · 2015-08-08T23:32:00+00:00

We don't support traditional gender roles, but we also don't support the attempts to redefine masculinity through a feminist lens. Since MensLib is essentially an attempt to examine and redefine masculinity through a feminist lens, it's in direct conflict with men's best interests, and anybody who supports men's best interests.

Estephe · 2015-08-09T01:58:51+00:00

"Gender" was invented to support an ideology that held that the sexes are not defined by hormonal causes in the womb. Sex roles can have a lot of different manifestations depending on necessity and preference. But the "gender" notion is tied to the disproved notion that the sexes are not a biological reality, but rather a "social construction" (superstitious ideology). A conversation about sex roles is not the same thing as a conversation about "gender" roles.

RockFourFour · 2015-08-09T02:14:41+00:00

Thanks for the replies, everyone. Overall, the consensus seems to be that the MRM is about eliminating gender roles and letting people do what they want to do. This was always my understanding. I also agree with the assessment that it is feminism that demands a strict adherence to traditional gender roles in order to further the narrative of oppression.

ichors · 2015-08-09T10:37:58+00:00

I'm not sure what the MRA hold as an official position on this matter, but I can give mine.

As a few have already eluded to, it is important to recognise that traditional gender roles do not out rightly oppress women. In certain social relations and situations, women may be limited by their gender role, but they will also be afforded many comforts from it. For instance, traditional gender roles will view women as the carer so may be pressured into such a life style. On the other hand, traditional gender roles also demand that women should be cared for and valued over men, along with children as their reproductive ability is more time consuming and thus scarcer than men's. Similarly, men face a similar double edge to these gender roles. For instance, men may hold more status within the family and will preside over family matters even when the woman is mostly at effect. Yet, he is also expected to provide the family, protecting and suffering for the family's well being at all costs. He is also far less likely to have a family, as competition between males is greater with sexual gratification afforded to only a few, leaving his status amongst other males more at threat. So, it is easy to understand how the feminist narrative may miss out much vital information here.

What I believe is necessary to understand about these gender roles is that they are not entirely social roles. They are biological. When studying social anthropology and evolutionary psychology we see many overlapping traits and functions that human society exhibits that gendered animals do as well - mainly how our genders act and interact. What I am trying to say here is that women will quite likely "naturally" (by naturally I mean evolutionarily) be more inclined to act as a carer while men are more inclined to act as the provider. Men naturally compete more for reproductive opportunities between themselves and compete more for the attention of females as women invest far more into reproduction than men. etc. Etc.

Therefore, the question is not whether we are evolutionarily predisposed towards fulfilling gender roles depending on whether we are male or female, this is certain, but to what point should we rail against it in pursuit of a more "equal" society. The dangers are that we may corrupt something integral to our reproductive advantage by blurring the genders. Gender roles steer men and women into the jobs within a functioning community that is most likely going to be an apt placement for them. Some people see this is as a fabricated worry, asking of what could possibly go wrong. They explain that we are cultured, intelligent animals that have evolved past our primary instincts, we are capable of philosophy and poetry, why should we bend out backs and fit into the role biology has predetermined for us?

This response is a little away from hitting the nail on the head. The call is only to respect our gender determinism and not to force everyone into the narrative, as of course we are intelligent, cultured animals that do not necessarily always fit into these binary options. Yet, that does not mean that on average many naturally will. I recently wrote a paper on the perils of genetic enhancement. At first, it is very hard to see what is wrong with such progressive scientific discoveries, but it is the subtle culture changes that digress from what is healthy and "natural" (this word becomes very problematic in the paper and takes much time to go over, but just going to "" instead)

2015-08-08T20:17:00+00:00

MinsLib is a sub about men that believe the feminist propaganda.

But to look at gender roles, just look at how a group advocates for the other gender. Feminism doesn't say much about how men should be allowed to do things that are traditionally female, unless it is saying that they would force men to do those things, because men should be like a slave.

MRM wants people to choose what they want to do, regardless of gender. The want the same options for men that women have.

Insula92 · 2015-08-08T20:09:02+00:00

>MUH Roles

Daily reminder that combating gender roles is exactly as oppressive as enforcing them.

Title	Gender roles...
Author	RockFourFour
Upvotes	34
Comments	34
Date	August 8, 2015 2:19 PM UTC (10 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/3g8u7e/gender_roles/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/gender-roles.973725 https://theredarchive.com/post/973725

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