Men Boycott Marriage

Well, that's your state. Not all states are like that. In New Hampshire, where my mother and grandmother got divorced, certainly not. If you're that miserable, find a way to move somewhere with laws that are more fair.

I feel like so often I have to repeat that just because your situation is a certain way doesn't mean everyone else's is. The women in my family, not the men, were screwed over by divorce, and yet I still realise that in most places the law is unfair towards men, and it is generally men who get the short end of the stick.

I would even concede that in your state, and other states like it, you probably have a lot more miserable marriages stuck together because of the laws. But I'm not saying that all current marriages are the happier ones, remember--we're talking about the fifty percent that last 'til death do us part. You and your wife will probably get divorced eventually, maybe when your kid is grown up, or maybe she'll have an affair and decide to leave you, who knows. Marriages that get divorced after twenty or even thirty years still count in the 50% that get divorced, not the 50% that stay together

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I propose that if you are thinking of getting married, ask youself how hard working the woman is. Is she filled with ideas and ambitions of what she is going to do in her career? Does she ever stay up late working on something because she is fascinated with it and can't tear herself away from it?

Because if she isn't, if she has no particular interest in work, and you marry her, the law will make her your obligation, with no corresponding obligations leveled on her (if she cheats on you, then gets a no-fault divorce, and wants sole custody, she will get it; all you will be left with is the obligation to suppport). The lazier she turns out to be, the more responsibility the law will put on you to take care of her.

It is possible to fake many things (sincerity, honesty, compassion, warmth, ...), but to fake serious ambition, over a period of years, is almost impossible under serious scrutiny.

I feel bad for women who are only interested in nuturing a family and not seriously interested in paid work, because I don't think there is anything inherently wrong with that kind of life among consenting adults, but the law does not protect the interests of men who go for that kind of relationship; if anything, it makes an example of them. The end result of that legal framework will be that men won't go for non-work oriented women anymore, at least not talented, ambitious men.

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The issue is not marriage in theory, the issue is what marriage has become. The theory is great, two people who love each other and are dedicated to spending their lives working together as partners make a vow before witnesses.

That is not what marriage is anymore. I am married, I love being married, it is not what Disney told me it would be, it is not about romance it is not about passion. It is about having someone to share the burden of life with.

The problem is not that people get married, the problem is the legal contracts that have come to be associated with it. Divorce law needs an overhaul. Custody law needs an overhaul. But most of all, our ideal of marriage needs an overhaul. Too many people believe what Disney told them, when the truth is: if you love someone you will sign a prenup. Because if you love and respect someone then you won't want them to be screwed by an outdated and gender biased legal system. And really, who can blame men for being unwilling to commit to that?

[–]RoundSparrow 5 points6 points7 points 16 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Joseph Campbell: “Marriage is not a love affair. A love affair is a totally different thing. A marriage is a commitment to that which you are. That person is literally your other half. And you and the other are one. A love affair isn’t that. That is a relationship of pleasure, and when it gets to be unpleasurable, it’s off. But a marriage is a life commitment, and a life commitment means the prime concern of your life. If marriage is not the prime concern, you are not married.”

Clearly there are both men and women who live to ripe old age of 90 and kick off happy that they are never married.

It is about having someone to share the burden of life with.

However, there are some who do agree with you. And that Joseph Campbell quote sums it up.

You do not have to get married, some actually want to.

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Thanks for telling your story. I think it is very important for young men to realize what they are risking when they get married and have kids, and what to look out for. My bottom line is not that young men shouldn't get married, but that they need to know what warning signs to look out for.

You can trust me when I say that nobody could have seen through her act, at least I think so. She was a perfect liar.

I suspect that if you had been better prepared, you could have seen through the act, and that the real bottom line on your story is that young men are very poorly prepared on a number of fronts to face the prospect of choosing a life mate.

When you watch romantic movies, for example, what are the virtues that the female star typically exhibits? I typically see beauty, humor, and perhaps cleverness displayed. If you are lucky, you might see honesty (in the face of adversity) explored a little.

I would say one of the most important virtues in real life is that someone be hard working. How often do you see the nature of hard work explored in any depth whatsoever by any sort of movie, let alone a romantic movie?

I would be curious to know, when you first met Alice, if she struck you as hard working, and filled with ideas and ambition about the sort of work she wanted to do in her career. I would imagine that those qualities would be very hard to fake consistently over a period of a year or more.

I think that the next time a young man is asking me for advice on whether he is marrying the right person, I am going to ask "is she hard working?"

The desire for the unearned is the root of all evil.

Although I have many problems with feminism, one strong current of thought in some corners of feminism that I am on the same page with is that work is for everyone.

edit1: it was pretty low of you to write that story about getting married, raising children, and having your wife turn against you, then replace it with this text, which I am recording here in case you decide to change it again:

I was about to get snookered on the pink, but then I started sucking cocks instead. It really saved me from the clutches of marriage. I don't know where I would be today were it not for cocks.

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Of course, there are no benefits to getting married - especially in the U.S.

Unless, you count:

joint parenting;
joint adoption;
joint foster care, custody, and visitation (including non-biological parents);
status as next-of-kin for hospital visits and medical decisions where one partner is too ill to be competent;
joint insurance policies for home, auto and health;
dissolution and divorce protections such as community property and child support;
immigration and residency for partners from other countries;
inheritance automatically in the absence of a will;
joint leases with automatic renewal rights in the event one partner dies or leaves the house or apartment;
inheritance of jointly-owned real and personal property through the right of survivorship (which avoids the time and expense and taxes in probate);
benefits such as annuities, pension plans, Social Security, and Medicare;
spousal exemptions to property tax increases upon the death of one partner who is a co-owner of the home;
veterans' discounts on medical care, education, and home loans; joint filing of tax returns;
joint filing of customs claims when traveling;
wrongful death benefits for a surviving partner and children;
bereavement or sick leave to care for a partner or child;
decision-making power with respect to whether a deceased partner will be cremated or not and where to bury him or her;
crime victims' recovery benefits;
loss of consortium tort benefits;
domestic violence protection orders;
judicial protections and evidentiary immunity;

(stolen from here)

List of federal benefits here

My husband is Dutch, so immigration benefits are super important to us - unfortunately our marriage isn't recognized in the U.S. so I'm basically forced to expatriate. I'd say being able to live in the same country as the person you love is a pretty good reason to get married.

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"...but deny same sex couples the same right..."

I can't think of a more ridiculous movement than gay marriage. Seriously. The gay community would have been much better off pushing for the benefits you cited above outside legal marriage. The financial enslavement that comes with marriage will ruin many gay relationships just like it has for many straight relationships. I counseled a gay friend of mine who recently gained the "right" to marry to not get married. His partner does not work. He will not be getting married.

Marriage reform - fine. No more community property, no more post-marital welfare.

As for pre-nups, why not just stay single? The fact that men feel like they need pre-nups is a clear sign that something is very wrong.

As for 2), the only institution in America that's worse than marriage/divorce are the child abduction/mom support laws. We need reform here first. We need 1. Shared parenting and 2. the end of mom support.

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However, there's a statistically significant risk that the man will end up divorced.

Thats because people in wealthy 1st world nations don't get married as a sort of business contract like people in many other parts of the world do...India comes to mind.

People in wealthy 1st world nations marry for love and love is a fickle thing. Sure, there are people who do find "the one" - and they stay together for ever, but most people...especially those who marry in their 20s, grow apart from their spouse and naturally fall out of love.

Divorce isn't a bad thing in itself - its just acknowledging that love changes, life changes. There are some real MR's issues with how alimony/child support/ dividing of assets happens after a divorce...but the fact that half of all marriages fail isn't a sad thing - its just life.

If you're a man who'd love to get married but don't want the legal hassle..you and your mate can buy rings, have a party and say your vows, all without paper work. Gays have been doing it for years.

[–]carchamp1 10 points11 points12 points 16 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

"If you're a man who'd love to get married but don't want the legal hassle..you and your mate can buy rings, have a party and say your vows, all without paper work. Gays have been doing it for years."

This has to be the worst advice I've ever read. What you describe is a common law marriage for different-sex partners and will screw men over just the same as the courthouse variety.

Modern marriage as it exists today should be abolished just as African slavery was 150 years ago. Many millions of men (and some women) are financially enslaved to their spouse or ex-spouse. This should not exist in America today.

And Sarcasticus makes a great point: "... separate a man from his children." I see little difference between the way African children were routinely torn away from their parents on the auction block 200 years ago in America, and the way children are routinely torn away from their fathers (usually) today. All of family law is a crime against humanity, mainly men and children.

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Whaaa....

So then, are you saying that women are incapable of making judgments? Of doing the right thing? That when it comes down to it, all women are conniving weasels who will stick it to whoever happens to hurt their feelings?

I saw this subreddit and I though, oh cool, Men's Rights. Don't know much about it, but I'm sure there will be lots of interesting discourse on how our society limits men. But nearly all I've found are bitter, misinformed men who think that women are too stupid, or to greedy to make decisions for themselves.

If you are dating a woman who is selfish to the point where she would screw you over if you divorce, you obviously shouldn't marry her. But it is not because women are evil, it's because that one particular woman is a bitch.

Now I realize that I might be coming off as doing a bit of stereotyping myself when it comes to this subreddit, so I'll finish this by saying that there have been a few redditors here that do exemplify what Men's Rights means. Unfortunately, they seem to be the minority.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 16 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

So then, are you saying that women are incapable of making judgments? Of doing the right thing? That when it comes down to it, all women are conniving weasels who will stick it to whoever happens to hurt their feelings?

Are you incapable of understanding what I wrote? The answer to your question is "No".

("That when it comes down to it, all women are conniving weasels" - as an aside, I just wanted to point out that all people are selfish all the time. This is merely fact and anyone who says otherwise I immediately find to be intellectually suspect.)

You could read the other discussion I'm having about this comment. It goes more in depth. I think it's a good discussion.

Frankly, I don't understand your use of the term "bitter". I don't understand what you mean by it; I don't understand what triggers it. The pot calling the kettle black?

Marriage has ceased to be relevant or beneficial to women. Scientific investigation has support for this contention. This is merely an opinion with some evidence. Do I find it sad? Yes. But maybe that's my problem. Maybe a man and woman raising a family together is completely unnecessary and outdated. Maybe the future is single-motherhood with multiple fathers and that's ok.

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That was my main experience. I don't know what kind of world you live in, but I've seen the effects of divorce among dozens and dozens of friends and acquaintances. I know almost no one, and have known almost no one, whose biological parents are still together. I am from US lower-middle income so that may have something to do with it.

My observation is that women benefit from divorce much more than men and I believe there is scientific literature to that effect. There is also science that indicates unmarried men are in worse shape than unmarried women. Interestingly, there is scientific evidence that indicates women are happiest unmarried while men are happiest married. Maybe that supports your conclusion about husbands treating their wives like house slaves.

men are jerks who lie and cheat and steal and treat their wives like house slaves who can be abandoned without a second thought.

I'm not sure what kind of background you come from. I believe in the middle and lower classes, divorce is the norm. Rare is the intact marriage. I believe this is mostly due to monetary issues - but that's beside the point. In these classes, a woman can separate and then collect (relatively) huge amounts of money from her husband. She can move to another state to get away from him and still collect the money. The collection apparatus is corrupt and routinely overcollects. Unless the former wife gets into the disagreement, overcollection is the norm.

Women seem to be happiest unmarried (science and yourself seem to agree on this). Once married and having had kids a woman can separate and collect money for support of herself and her children. If she no longer wants contact with the husband she can move to another state and continue to collect the money. She will likely collect money in excess of her court-determined award. So yes, I can't see anyone arguing that there aren't huge benefits to a woman in getting a divorce. According to the science (and yourself), women don't even enjoy being married in the first place.

It seems to me that your mother and grandmother and the other women you speak of were lucky to get divorced if that was truly the state of their marriage. I'm not exactly sure why you think they got "dicked over" when it's apparent that they were not treated well. The zombie feminist in me is screaming good for them.

can be abandoned without a second thought

I don't understand why that's a bad thing. Why would it be a bad thing to allow people to get out of a marriage they don't want to be in? Making divorce easy is also one of the pillars of modern feminist thought. That's a good thing. If I were married and my wife truly didn't want to be with me anymore, I would prefer that she leave. Why would I want to keep the marriage against her will?

It sounds to me like you're attacking the institution of marriage rather than divorce. And if you're right, if marriage really is that awful for women, then I'd expect most of them will eventually seek a divorce. And, in reality, most of them do. It might be better for a man to stay married (rather then never marry at all) and for a woman to marry and then divorce. You can't make a woman stay married to you, but I guess it's relatively easy to convince a man to marry. Thus, we get the current state of affairs.

[–]InfinitelyThirsting 6 points7 points8 points 16 years ago (8 children) | Copy Link

Excuse me, I never said women don't like being married, or that they're better off not being married. My mom, one of my grandmothers, and a couple of my friends' moms had bad husbands, but those divorces are not every marriage with which I have come in contact. Do not put words in my mouth, or assume my world views. I'm a big fan of marriage, as long as it's thought out properly and people have accurate expectations.

What I was attacking is your universal statement that women always benefit from divorce, and that they will selfishly abandon their marriages without concern for their husbands or children because of the temptations of money. You based this off of your parents' divorce. I was pointing out that it is not a universal truth, and where the problem lies when you extrapolate off of one or two personal experiences.

The "dicking over" of which I spoke was that my mother and grandmother were the kind of women stereotypical divorce laws were set up to protect, and yet did not at all benefit from the divorce other than getting out of the relationship. My grandmother was made to give up her career and be a stay at home mom and housewife, and didn't get a divorce until long after her kids were adults. I was in high school when it all happened. It was spurred because she found out he was not only having an affair, but a long-standing affair with a woman of the same first name whom he was bringing on business trips under the guise of being her. She lost a lot of joint possessions, got no alimony, no share of his retirement, and only got to keep the house because he had already been planning to move to Arizona anyways. The asshole used to make her beg for grocery money. He abused her, and my mother and uncle, and was a jackass to me on the few occasions I had to interact with him. (My first memory of him was him tripping me and laughing about it, for example.) But despite this, and despite her position as the stay-at-home wife, she got nothing.

My mother was compelled to give up her education to stay home and raise me and my sister, and my dad explicitly told her to never get more than a part time job. He never did anything nice for her, had a bunch of affairs that he'd lie about, spied on her email and computer activities, and when he lost his job and she moved up to working sixty hours a week on the night shift, he still refused to do a lick of housework or even cook. He started to do his own laundry for a little while (but just his own, no one else's), but stopped because he was upset she didn't thank him for doing his own laundry. And yet, despite the fact that he makes twice what she does, my mom was the one who had to move out to a shitty apartment, and buy everything all over again, and then only got $23,000 out of a $200,000 house she'd spent twenty years living in and had done all of the repairs and remodeling for. She also only got $100 a week of alimony for less than a year (from when the divorce was finalized, two and a half years after she left, until my sister graduates high school this June, because it's really just child support in disguise), and had to forfeit some of her possessions. And this, again, despite the fact that she's uneducated and only worked part time entry level jobs until a few years ago, and that even now working full time she makes half of what my dad does.

So when people tell me women always benefit from divorce, and that it's motivated by financial reasons, I react against the universal statement very viscerally. My mother and grandmother were in the stereotypical bad, oppressive marriages for which those unjust laws were created, and yet didn't even get their fair share of the marital assets and properties, much less the fabled buckets of alimony and child support.

But again, I do not think marriage is awful, or that men are awful--just that those particular marriages were awful. So please, don't use universal statements, or make judgments on the motives of women just because of your personal experience. Yes, half of all marriages fail and get divorced--but that also means half of all marriages stay married. Your presumption that women in general want to get married to get divorced because it's a guaranteed cash cow for them is bullshit.

[–]FigNinja 5 points6 points7 points 16 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

There seem to be a lot of folks here who think alimony is common. Maybe it is in some states, but where I live alimony is almost never granted. Even then it's typically very short term.

As for child support, I've known a few guys that got screwed but most of the time, the support amount was barely enough to cover half of what the mother spent on the kids when there was any child support at all. I know quite a few couples that split custody 50/50. Either way, both partners ended up poorer for the divorce. Neither of their incomes went up and now they had two separate households. Most divorced couples I know agonized over it, dreaded it, knew it would totally mess up their lives but they just couldn't live together. Most of them also try to get along for the sake of their children. Oh, and of the guys I know that did have to pay support, there was not a single "deadbeat". They didn't resent supporting their kids, but then I've rarely seen a single mom that didn't spend every penny on her kids. They exist, sure. All these horror stories exist. But there are also plenty of divorces where the couple still cares about each other and doesn't try to screw each other over.

[–][deleted] -1 points0 points1 point 16 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

Your presumption that women in general want to get married to get divorced because it's a guaranteed cash cow for them is bullshit.

I would agree with that. But I do think women get married for financial reasons - to find a good provider. Afterward, the temptation of divorce beckons. I would even look at your mother's and grandmother's experience as confirmation of that.

Is it wrong? Right? Universal? Who knows. I'm just of the opinion, and your mother and grandmother's experience only confirm this, that women are better off getting divorced almost all the time. What is best for the kids and family? Probably that she stay married. Is marriage built on the back of wives' labor and emotional support? Maybe. So why should women marry or stay married? What's in it for them? Apparently nothing. Do I think this is a sad state of affairs? Yes.

[–]Glameow 4 points5 points6 points 16 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]InfinitelyThirsting 2 points3 points4 points 16 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

What do you mean what's in it for them? Love, support, a family, someone to come home to--all the things marriage is supposed to be. You're talking like no one who gets married is ever in love with their partner, and more specifically as if women in general are incapable of being in love with their husbands.

What about all the women who marry poor men? You also seem to presume that only women only marry men of means. Plenty of women marry poor men, or men who make less than they do, nowadays. Where do those fit into your neat little worldview?

I mean, come on, if you're going off the "what's in it for them" argument, what's in it for anyone? If you discount all the emotional aspects, what's in it for men? Why would anyone ever get married?

And while my mother and grandmother are better off emotionally, they're far worse off financially than they were while married. It's hypocritical for you to say that women are better off financially after divorce, and then when presented with counter-examples, say "Oh well they're probably still better off anyways", because then I could counter that the men who have manipulative ex-wives who do steal their money are "better off" not being married to those shrews, so everyone should therefore be better off divorced.

You just can't make universal statements like that. Some women, many even, marry for, among other things, financial reasons. Some of them are better off divorced. But nothing applies to everyone. Your opinion is as ridiculous as someone saying "I think men only get married so they can come home to dinner on the table", or something along those lines.

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When people are married for decades, they will actively dislike each other. Those who stay together can patch things up. Marriages, like all long relationships, will have ups and downs. That's just human nature. For that reason, I'm not sure this kind of analysis is helpful. Yes, you will hate your spouse. That's inevitable. Does this mean the marriage should be destroyed? I don't know if it matters.

It's ironic how you defend divorce and I defend marriage. The grass is always greener? That said, I would guess ideally two people get together for the right reasons and the long haul - to build a home for their kids and themselves. You had that. I didn't. I think it's a good thing. You don't know how lucky you were.

In the end, even a single parent can create a stable home for their kids. It's just a matter of someone knowing how to parent. My parent's divorce was fairly traumatic in this respect. I suppose divorce can be done right, it just probably usually isn't.

[–][deleted] 6 points7 points8 points 16 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

I absolutely agree that people ought to work things out, or at least try. I don't think its healthy to just throw away someone you've been with for decades without trying.

That said, I think no fault divorce makes it easier for people who made bad decisions in getting together to leave ... or to leave an abusive spouse, and as we know here very well that includes a lot of men too.

My father had pretty severe PTSD from Vietnam, he had a decade of suicide attempts and counciling, and my mother stayed with him through it all - she really tried and it paid off for her. They're very happy. But, maybe that wouldn't have been the best decision for everyone?

No fault divorce puts the onus of responsibility on the people who married, not the state. The state, or legislation, shouldn't bind you to another person, only your free will should. But again, my opinion.

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So. Only half of marriages fail. Of those that fail, less than half of spouses act spitefully towards their exes with visitation rights.

So, a small minority of people are out to "screw" over their spouses. Instead of what the poster i responded to said

I think the problem is the benefits of divorce for women are huge. They get tempted. They don't care about the consequences to their children or husband. It's a sad state of affairs.

So, the problems with this statement are as follows:

If the benefits for divorce are so huge, why do only half of marriages fail? And of those half only 40% of spouses are spitefull? That doesn't seem like a "majority"

-Who are "they" ? In any sort of writing, you can get away with sounding like you're saying something without actually saying anything if you use vague terms like "they" - who are "they" in this sentence? All women? Some women?

-Whats the "sad state of affairs"?

People get by on the internet making inflammatory and shallow comments like that without being forced to say what they mean.

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Eh, I think marriage sucks for both parties. Divorce sucks on all sides of the problem. I think that cohabitation agreement sounded neat, but wouldn't a will work just as well? I'm not sure on that. It might be easier for the family to contest, though, if a partner dies and they weren't married.

Meh, I'm a girl and I used to want to be married, but after hearing horror stories from my current partner and growing up a bit, I don't think marriage is a good choice. Women lose their identities to marriage, and tend to be defined by their relationship status.

And doesn't marriage suck because of the law behind divorce and marriage and child support and all that? Boycotting marriage doesn't seem like the appropriate avenue. Push for reform in the court systems. (Of course, boycotting marriage is way easier than trying to change the archaic laws.)

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I stopped reading that when the author started making generalisations about diamonds.

Guys - if you don't want to be with a girl who expects you to buy her a diamond, then don't. If you want a polished, hot girl who looks fantastic, then be willing to accept the price tag that comes with it.

Make good choices. Vet your potential spouse very carefully. Simple as that. It still might not work out, but at least you did your homework.

Do not categorise all women as evil, manipulative people who will take you for all you're worth.

I can tell you right now, if I met a guy who believed that, that would be the end of that relationship. And you would have lost a girl that doesn't believe in diamonds, and does believe in marriage equality, and hangs around in MR forums because of a strong belief in mens rights, as well as womans rights.

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Title	Men Boycott Marriage
Author	[deleted]
Upvotes	66
Comments	199
Date	March 26, 2010 5:35 PM UTC (16 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/biohk/men_boycott_marriage/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/men-boycott-marriage.1050158 https://theredarchive.com/post/1050158

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