Completely honest question... isn't thinking all feminists are misandrists just as bad as thinking all MRAs are misogynists?

just_a_lil_curious · 2011-02-18T19:52:55+00:00

I believe it is, yes.

I think of the gender equality movement as a healing process, rather than a fight. I see the tools of this movement as education, information, and conversation.

Too often, I see the us-or-them perspective presented by both men and women in the gender equality movement. As a man who works for gender equality, I wish that more men (and women) would see that anger, harsh language, and tribal politics are not only counterproductive, they are 100% in opposition to the goal of gender equality.

That doesn't mean that we ought to take issues like domestic abuse, false rape accusation, and circumcision lightly. It means that if our reaction to these issues is to make insulting generalizations about women or feminists, we are running in the opposite direction from having these issues taken seriously by the mainstream culture.

just_a_lil_curious · 2011-02-18T20:58:57+00:00

Saying "all (blank) are (blank)" in general is probably not a good thing regardless of what you fill the blanks with. Unless, of course, the first blank is "bears" and the second blank is "godless killing machines".

Edit: Fixed format derp.

AnnArchist · 2011-02-18T19:35:24+00:00

yes, it is. . . .

zsaleeba · 2011-02-18T23:51:39+00:00

I think most women who call themselves feminists are genuinely interested in equal rights and those people aren't misandrists.

Unfortunately there's a lot of lot of misandry in feminism's back-story so the movement has a lot to overcome if it doesn't want to be seen as misandrist.

Shadowsoal · 2011-02-19T00:36:13+00:00

I really dislike in this subreddit, when people start bashing feminists as a whole, when they should be bashing what is often termed "femnazis", and someone calls them out on it, the automatic response is, "no true scottsman, show me a moderate feminist!!" and then to ignore any consequent response....

Crioca · 2011-02-19T02:42:01+00:00

Yes, yes it is. The thing that upsets me is not feminism, but the double standards inherent with attitudes towards feminism.

Chuymatt · 2011-02-19T04:27:38+00:00

Shit, yes. I would call myself both a feminist and MRA - I think equality is equality and everybody needs a slice of that pie. In fact, you don't get a choice, you have to eat that fucking pie, even if you don't like some of the ingredients. Everyone is required to have an equally-sized slice of equality pie. Get a slice and pass it around.

I don't think there's a conspiracy on either side, just individuals and groups with bad attitudes, which should be called out by men and women, whether those bad attitudes are held by men or women.

powerpiglet · 2011-02-18T19:24:39+00:00

I believe misandry is intrinsic to feminism. Many feminists are misandrists, either overtly or covertly. Even those who are not are complicit by participating in and supporting a misandrist ideology.

Feminism is structurally and ideologically opposed to men's rights, in many ways which time allows only the briefest outline here:

The patriarchy theory casts all men as oppressors and all women as the oppressed, despite all evidence to the contrary.
The perversion of the word "privilege" is used to redefine men's inalienable rights as contingent privileges which may be removed, thereby justifying attacks on those rights.
The "one-sided inequality", whereby any inequality against women is an outrage to be corrected, while any inequality suffered by men is ignored or discounted, is used to celebrate inequality for males as victories for women.
The feminist attack on 'patriarchy' is in fact an attack on fatherhood, whereby the power of the state is employed through family court, welfare programs, child support services, domestic violence laws, and policing policies to forcibly remove fathers from their families.

Furthermore, the feminists who pose as allies to the men's rights movement only serve as cover and concealment for those feminists who attack men's rights. In the same vein, "feminism is about equality" is the cover story that obscures the political actions that feminists take everyday to weaken men's rights.

By contrast, MRAs are not intrinsically misogynist (though some are). We dislike the ideology and politics of feminism, not women. Neither are MRAs intrinsically opposed to women's rights or gender equality (though some are). We are opposed to the feminist pursuit of unilateral empowerment for women under the guise of equality.

Feminists are like witches, but this isn't the The Land of Oz, Dorothy. There are good women, but no good feminists.

just_a_lil_curious · 2011-02-18T20:21:09+00:00

Feminism used to have some valid points, and a lot of feminist thinking still applies. Second wave feminists acting like nothing has changed since 1900, or RadFems who are honed in on Wyminz Are Victimz Alwayz, though? Yes, they are misandrist enemies.

Having said that, why call yourself a murse? English is blessed with a lot of gender ambiguity and much like "teacher" is gender neutral "nurse" could be as well. I'm not in your shoes and thus your opinion matters much more, but why not call yourself a nurse and be proud of it?

omaolligain · 2011-02-19T04:11:15+00:00

Sure, but I don't think that's what MRA's think of feminists. MRA's think that the Feminist Leadership is all largely misandrists (and the ones that are not are attacked by their peers) and they are largely correct. I think most MRA's think the majority feminist flock is largely agreeable.

DomesticApe · 2011-02-19T03:22:23+00:00

I was once a feminist or I agreed to it on the pretense of what their definition was. It was about 'equality'. It's only once you take a closer analysis of it that you find the absurdity of it all.

InfinitelyThirsting · 2011-02-19T03:53:20+00:00

Completely honest question... isn't thinking that all MRA's think all feminists are misandrists just as bad?

Can you resist the urge to label a group of people as all being the same?

Irony much?

fondueguy · 2011-02-19T05:15:54+00:00

Aren't nazi's thinking the Jews are bad the same as the Jews thinking the nazi's are bad... that is the form of your argument. Feminism is bigotry.

2011-02-19T06:40:06+00:00

No. Feminism is an ideology, it is not the entire WRM. It's an ideology which asserts that men dominate women and that undermining any and all male "privilege", while ignoring female "privilege", is the best way to achieve their unique definition of "equality"...that is inherently misandrist. Contrast this with the MRM which is literally a loose association of people who advocate for men's rights...a movement plagued by various conflicting ideologies...some of which, I admit, are misogynist....but there's no unifying factor other than the assertion that "men, as a class, are being treated poorly in one way or another...and we should try to fix that somehow".

With that being said, for our purposes here, there are really two types of feminists you need to be concerned with:gender-feminists and equity-feminists...as "feminist" is also used to describe the people within the movement which grew from that ideology, instead of those who necessarily believe that ideology (sort of like someone who is "catholic, but not religious"). I assume most mean "gender-feminist" when they say "feminist" here...but that necessitates an explanation re the distinction between gender and equity-feminism and an argument over whether or not gender-feminism represents the most powerful segment of the feminist movement, which derails most conversations.

Unfortunately, those who legitimately strive for women's equality aren't as motivated to be quite so involved in feminist groups, as they have trouble ignoring the glaring issues faced by the other side...issues many feminist organizations do ignore. Seeing issues like homeless men being forced to pay child support for children that aren't even theirs, ignored by organizations which feel it's more important to give rich women the right to play golf at a private country club, tends to make equity-minded people reconsider associating with "organized feminism".

But you're right...there are plenty of people calling themselves "feminist" who have only ever been exposed to feminist propaganda. They think "well I support equality, and feminism is all about equality, so I must be a feminist". They're good people and when you see someone disparaging "feminists", you may immediately think we're referring to them...we're not. In fact, some of us view them as potential MRAs.

Unfortunately, I believe those misinformed "good people" represent the bulk of "equity-feminists"...and by adopting the label "feminist", they further empower all feminists...including gender-feminists. Many gender-feminists have made careers out of wielding that power (i.e. those in the DV industry, those employed by advocacy groups, etc.). Those with interests vested in the wielding of that power (i.e. career feminists...most of which seem to be gender-feminists) have a motivation to increase said power. You can call that a conspiracy if you want...but to me, it's just human nature.

antisocialmedic · 2011-02-18T19:21:30+00:00

i agree-but policies feminists have put forth have pretty much all hurt men

just_a_lil_curious · 2011-02-19T00:36:21+00:00

What's it like under that bridge anyway?

just_a_lil_curious · 2011-02-18T20:53:36+00:00

Wow, you really knocked down that straw man.

XFDRaven · 2011-02-19T00:51:08+00:00

Well isn't this yet another bullshit question that's been beaten to death.

Simple test: Name one MRA policy that negatively impacts women to the same degree Feminist policy affects men.

Maschalismos · 2011-02-18T19:37:22+00:00

we don't think that all feminists are misandrists. But modern Feminist policies DO act to hurt men. so its a case where the individual is good, but the overall organization is evil...

fidelbogen · 2011-02-18T22:16:16+00:00

The question is, who is actually thinking that? The question you have framed here is rather close to being a strawman.

Did somebody say that "ALL" feminists are misandrists? Well I, for one, never said that. The actual truth is more complex and subtle.

The actual truth is that feminism is a sociopolitical organism, and like all organisms it is composed of separate parts with separate functions that are nonetheless united by an underlying organic purpose.

So I think it is more illuminating to say that the organic sum total of feminism's actions, in a sociopolitical sense, point in a consistently misandric (female supremacist) direction.

And so, human naivete and self-deception being what they are, it is possible to be a self-declared feminist with the best of intentions toward men, and yet on another level, "not know who you are really working for."

The following might shed additional light:

http://counterfem.blogspot.com/2006/10/is-feminism-hate-movement.html

2011-02-19T01:31:49+00:00

Nope, because feminism is necessarily misandric, while men's rights is not misogynistic.

Looks like we have quite an influx of misandrist feminists in this thread, downvoting anything that makes them feel bad and upvoting utter crap.

kloo2yoo · 2011-02-18T21:26:29+00:00

Talk to me when these are repealed and reversed.

Women vote. When, by voting, they demonstrate active misandry, then yes, condemning them as sexist when taken as a whole is entirely justified.

SenorSpicyBeans · 2011-02-19T03:35:53+00:00

It's wrong to think all feminists are mentally retarded, but I still do. What of it?

Title	Completely honest question... isn't thinking all feminists are misandrists just as bad as thinking all MRAs are misogynists?
Author	just_a_lil_curious
Upvotes	36
Comments	191
Date	February 18, 2011 7:00 PM UTC (15 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/fo1zi/completely_honest_question_isnt_thinking_all/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/completely-honest-question-isnt-thinking-all.1042985 https://theredarchive.com/post/1042985

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