Announcing FeMRA, the /r/ainbow of /r/ladymra. Moderated (lightly) by our resident video FeMRAs, GirlWritesWhat and TyphonBlue

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[–]GunOfSod 5 points6 points7 points 13 years ago* (6 children) | Copy Link

[–]FOADSASCUM -3 points-2 points-1 points 13 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

Some context to the link regarding having to deal with something ugly.

[1] Fuck you, you selfish cunt, fuck this whole subreddit.

I'm so sorry, I should just have let you walk all over me because you have a vagina, what was I thinking.

Man, of course you can tell MRAs how pathetic they are for distursting women with an agenda.

[2] We shouldn't have to, we shouldn't have to associate ourselves with some gaggle of manipulative selfish women just to prove the validity of our beliefs.

I still maintain this, the MRM shouldn't have to kiss the ass of a bunch of cunts who are only interested in the MRM because of how it may benefit them as women. Not because they genuinely give a shit about the rights of men or the injustices committed against them.

I'll reiterate what I said to you last time you selfish bitch.

Fuck you, you selfish cunt

The only reason you have anything to do with the MRM is so you can subvert and control it to suit your selfish goals.

Edit: btw thanks for the /r/ladymra downvote brigade, censoring opinions about mens rights that don't mellow with women.

Atleast radfems are honest that they hate men, you're just so much worse.

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[–]girlwriteswhat 9 points10 points11 points 13 years ago (15 children) | Copy Link

There are a couple of reasons why a women's MRA subreddit might be beneficial. Speaking generally:

Women are different than men. They're different in their psychology, different in their thresholds of the level of offense that will upset them, different in their comfort level, different in their level of self-interest, etc. Women are more sensitive, apprehensive and worry more about both being offended and offending others.

I see a lot of comments all over the place from women about how they believe in men's rights, but think the MRM is violent, dangerous and woman-hating. I even had one woman PM me to tell me they are terrorists, and when I asked for a link, she sent me to a conversation she'd had with Paul Elam that went like this:

Her: "So, are you going to go your own way, or are you going to stick around and fuck their shit up?"

Paul: "Feminism depends on men's tax revenue. Going our own way IS fucking feminists' shit up."

THAT was her evidence of violence and terrorism.

An MRA in my city has been putting up posters for AVFM that say, "All men are rapists. Rape Culture. Men can stop rape. Sick of this shit yet?" It's been suggested by people opposed to us that the hate crimes unit of the local police be contacted. Over posters that say nothing about women, but only protest the idea that sexual violence is inherent to masculinity.

I'm almost positive that what's really happening is that people are reacting instinctively to men speaking openly about their problems and the areas of life and society in which they are powerless. We are programmed to feel contempt for weak men, men who can't overcome their problems, men who aren't useful. But as humans, we're supposed to be above that, we're supposed to be compassionate and humane and enlightened.

So when a person who feels they're above that feels that visceral negative emotion when confronted with men speaking about male problems and male disenfranchisement, they need a way to explain that emotion. So they impute a malicious intent and violent sentiment where it doesn't exist, to give themselves a valid and morally acceptable reason for feeling that instinctive contempt.

I've said to the women in LadyMRAs that softening the message will not make it easier for people to swallow--it will only make it easier to ignore, which is what people want to do.

This is extremely different from what happens when women talk about their problems and ask society for help and support. Manginas get involved with feminism because that's an instinctive path of least resistance. It's going WITH what feels right to the limbic system, instead of going against it. Helping, supporting and protecting women makes people feel good, and it makes men feel useful and important. Some of the very hinky male feminists who shall remain nameless (but whom I would guess have not had easy lives, because they're unattractive, or struggled with addiction, or were abused by women) cling to the illusion of male privilege and will defend that illusion from the encroachment of reality because it gives them a false sense of their own potence as men. The female attention they get from feminists feeds their egos.

Even when they've been thrown under the bus by feminists, they'll believe their feminism is the right and noble way, because helping those women is the righteous thing, and "they know not what they do."

I suppose what I'm saying is that, on an emotional level, it's very easy to be a male feminist. Being a male feminist plays into men's instincts to protect, support and help women. It is going with instinct and ignoring painful truths.

Being a female MRA is NOT easy. You need to actively disregard your instincts in favor of uncomfortable truths, and most women have a lower threshold than men as to what they find uncomfortable in the first place. You have to battle your instinctive contempt for men who are not in a position of strength and self-determination. You have to suppress the apprehension you feel when men express anger around you. You have to combat the impulse to employ emotional tactics in favor of reasoned argument. You have to be brave, and the culture doesn't socialize women to be that way. You have to stop giving people permission to hurt your feelings--and that doesn't mean making them stop saying things that hurt your feelings, but rather, not allowing others to exercise control over your own emotions.

Being a female MRA is, in many ways, going against nature. Women tend to really get involved in the movement when the men they care about are threatened, and they often want the message to be softened because THEY feel that would be more effective. They don't understand the underlying dynamics that make it much more difficult for the MRM to be effective in the mainstream. They need a place to learn that, and to train themselves to compartmentalize their emotions in such a way that they can be effective advocates without burning out or feeling constantly attacked by MRAs who are not attacking them.

[–]ExpendableOne 5 points6 points7 points 13 years ago* (1 child) | Copy Link

I completely agree with the point you made about women in MRA circles having to overcome a lot, from their own pre-existing prejudice to overcoming their on sensibilities or having to deal with male anger, but I don't really think the best way for them to learn to over come this, or even for the rest of us to help them overcome this, is by isolating them to these specific confines.

I don't think women are just inherently more sensitive or vulnerable and, for those who are, I don't think the answer is to just create a small little space for them to be sheltered from every other aspect of the movement or aspects of life that they don't like or want to hear/deal with. They need to be exposed to it more so than anyone.

And, it may not seem like it at first but this really is, even if it is in a small way, splitting the movement too. Women who will find what they are looking for(which is not necessarily the same as, what they need to hear) in these special subreddits "just for women", will eventually start migrating there and spending more and more time into these subreddit, while spending less and less time in the main sub. This will result in both isolating them from the movement and isolating them from other men and male experiences; which will, if anything, further perpetuate their own "us vs them" mentality against men(even if they don't really notice it) and make it harder for them to overcome those feelings they needed to overcome in the first place.

I don't see how encouraging this idea that it's a good thing for women, as a group(or "Woman"), to exclude or to even want to exclude men from their discussions. It's not even something that I think people should feel entitled to. If you had a group of black men and women wanting to start a blackMRA subreddit, with the sole goal of excluding people of other ethnicities or cultures from their discussions, would you really consider that to be commendable or warranted?

Not only that but, really, what kind of message does a female segregated space really send(to both the men in the MRA movement and to others outside the MRA movement)? Even if it stems from women themselves(which, I would say is far less offensive then the male segregated space that women in feminism tend to force men into), doesn't that just clearly indicate those women don't want to deal with men in general or would rather avoid dealing with men a direct way? Doesn't this perpetual desire for women to distance themselves from men stem from the same sexist attitudes we should be fighting against in the first place, demonstrates a certain negative predisposition towards men from women in the MRA movement(ironic to say the least) and promote the idea of hard gender binaries rather than gender equality?

[–]girlwriteswhat -1 points0 points1 point 13 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

I don't think women are just inherently more sensitive or vulnerable and, for those who are, I don't think the answer is to just create a small little space for them to be sheltered from every other aspect of the movement or aspects of life that they don't like or want to hear/deal with. They need to be exposed to it more so than anyone.

http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0029265

Sensitivity was the single largest sex difference in personality. When researchers removed that difference from their calculations, the 10% overlap became a 24% overlap. Still a very small overlap, but much bigger once sensitivity was removed.

And I don't think you get the idea of this subreddit. LadyMRAs is, IMO, a waste of time because they protect women. They want to maintain a decorum that does not exist anywhere else in the MRM. People who get introduced to these issues there will not be well-prepared for r/mensrights. They'll be as likely to run screaming as the most wet behind the ears newb stumbling across this sub.

FeMRAs has been dubbed "Honey Badger Boot Camp." It is not a place for coddling.

[–][deleted] -3 points-2 points-1 points 13 years ago (12 children) | Copy Link

ok I see your point despite feeling slightly star struck as I'm getting a reply from girlwriteswhat

I agree that women mra's need their own space but since I haven't been keeping up with ladymras (I norm just keep to the main mra page) I don't have a great deal of knowledge of their problems. I do agree that some of them, especially new ones would need protection from some of the misogynists in mra, because even I myself have to tell the odd member that it's not ok to call women sluts or things like that, and as soon as I do anything to say "yh you can't talk about women like that" I then have to explain that being a decent human being who wants fair treatment for men as much as they want fair treatment for women doesn't make me a feminist

I think I was just paranoid of the greater good of mra and gender equality (I don't absolutely define myself as an mra, I believe both sides have it just as bad in different ways but I am more biased to mra) being further derailed by more sub groups. I just want people to focus more on what's being said than the gender of who's saying it. judging from the responses the femra notion doesn't seem that bad but we'll see how it goes, and hopefully it'll go well.

what strides do you think mra's should take forward to get into the mainstream? I saw the posters and I didn't agree with them, I think it potentially scares off a lot of people because it says rape all over it, also I don't think the general public even knows what rape culture is, let alone has an opinion on it.

I have my own ideas which I want to start working on,it'd be grassroots style and rather than massive protest it'd be aimed at peoples perceptions, and I'll be trying to get mra's and feminists involved because even though we have our differences some of us truly want gender equality not just in the law but in social circumstances. that's all I'm going to say for now as I haven't started it but hopefully soon it'll get going, and it'll get going good

[–]girlwriteswhat 2 points3 points4 points 13 years ago (11 children) | Copy Link

I do agree that some of them, especially new ones would need protection from some of the misogynists in mra, because even I myself have to tell the odd member that it's not ok to call women sluts or things like that, and as soon as I do anything to say "yh you can't talk about women like that" I then have to explain that being a decent human being who wants fair treatment for men as much as they want fair treatment for women doesn't make me a feminist

I can't stress enough that women in this movement will not benefit from that kind of protection--protection from an external source, or protection in the form of limiting the speech of others. The opposition, trolls and bigots will not limit their speech.

What happens when a woman who can't handle the men in this movement speaking in unflattering generalizations--for instance, "women value men for their wallets" or "women expect payment in return for access to sex (or even for women's company)"--when they stumble on something like what I linked to?

The truth is, women DO value men for their wallets, and women DO expect to be paid for their company--the evidence of this is all around us, and there is sound evolutionary reasoning as to why this would be the case for the majority of women. Women in the past who did not feel attraction based on a man's ability and willingness to invest heavily in return for her enormous and risky biological investment in sex would have simply been less successful at producing children who had a decent chance of survival than those who did.

And while translating that into "women are gold-diggers by nature" is placing a moral judgment on something that is no one's fault and was a necessary trait for women to have up until very recently, and moral judgments of women feel icky to us, the underlying truth of that statement is still going to be there and needs to be addrsessed. Even if it makes women feel bad, or judged.

What women in this movement need is not external protection from the truth, or to have everyone walk on eggshells and dance around the truth and dose it with a pound of sugar so it won't taste so bitter. What they need is to learn coping mechanisms that they can employ themselves, so that people in this movement can express themselves freely. They need a place where they can grow a callus around their identities as women, so that they don't feel personally assaulted when someone expresses anger over a common female trait or behavior that has impacted them in a negative way. They need a place wherein they can learn, through repetition if nothing else will work, that a general statement is not a universal statement. They need a place to learn about certain pathways that exist in female psychology that will undermine their ability to be effective, maintain a positive self-image and not get hurt when they enter the mosh pit that /r/mensrights and other MRM spaces can be. They need to learn to not let a perceived personal affront compel them to derail an entire conversation. And they need to learn that when someone in the movement has really offended them, a well-placed "fuck you" will probably get them more respect than saying, "you're injuring me" or "you're threatening me" in an attempt to compel other men in the space to run to their rescue, circle the wagons and batter or shame the offender into silence.

In other words, they need to learn how to protect themselves. They won't learn that by being protected by others. And not learning how to protect themselves will not serve them when they come up against some of the shit that I have since I started doing this.

I saw the posters and I didn't agree with them, I think it potentially scares off a lot of people because it says rape all over it, also I don't think the general public even knows what rape culture is, let alone has an opinion on it.

The opposition group consists mostly of university students. They are well-acquainted with what rape culture is, and seem steeped in feminist dogma. One guy--not even an MRA--said that the question about the hate crimes unit was "childish and irresponsible", and was scolded for sexism because calling a woman childish is a misogynist silencing tactic, blah blah blah. That's women's studies 101. So regardless of what the general public does or doesn't think about those posters, the group opposed to them that is organizing a counter-campaign is well aware of what those posters are about.

I also found it hilarious what they did when Paul Elam found their group. He left a single comment: "I'm glad you're response will be non-violent, because AVFM is a non-violent organization."

Their response was to delete his comment, block him, and then post:

Unfortunately, Paul’s version of being reasonable has necessitated that we block him from the page. As a rule, we prefer not to block people. However, no where is it written that our inclusive, open, reasonable, positive, and safe space has to put up with spam, trolling, and abuse. So we won’t.

That is a very round-about and indirect but sparkling clear false accusation of malice and abuse, and it's typical of these people's tactics.

I have also been on feminist sites where I will leave a reasonable comment backed up with evidence, and it never got through moderation. What does often make it through moderation in those cases are abusive comments by men who may not even be MRAs. I've been in discussions in heavily moderated spaces where I will leave a long comment, someone will pick half a sentence that is completely inconsistent with what I said when you remove the context, quote THAT, and respond as if I'm being abusive or hateful. I finally logged out, looked at the conversation, and all my comments had been deleted. All that was left was the little bits that sound horrible out of context, and the "OMG, I can't believe you said that, you hateful monster!" replies.

MRAs who've been in this for a while understand that there is no way to sweeten the message to make it more palatable. Making it less in your face will only allow people to stay in their comas, to continue to look away from something they already resist seeing. They understand that a man politely asking for help as a man will be met with as much, if not more, hostility among the mainstream than one who is angry and expresses that.

My own efforts are more in the way of trying to understand how our natures as men and women compel us to exacerbate these problems rather than address and solve them. I hope to act as a Bill Nye for mainstream people, to get them to think and be interested in gender issues, because honestly, I think they are the single most important discussion we can have as humans--they impact everything else, from social policy to law to economics to relationships to family...everything.

That's what I think I can do best. What other MRAs do will depend on their strengths, and a variety of other considerations, including where they live. The area where those posters went up is probably 50% university educated--these people will know what the posters are saying. Which is why there's such a strong effort to have them taken down.

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[–]SirSkeptic -3 points-2 points-1 points 13 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

So this is a Lounge Bar? Australia used to have two bars in public buildings. The Front Bar - which was seen as a mens area, and the Lounge Bar - seen as a genteel place for Ladies, University Lads and foreign "poofs". Women were allowed into the Front bar but it was discouraged. The bar maids were women and many of the owners were women and the harder women thought is was awesome, but it was designed as a rough place for farm or factory workers. If you went in, you took your chances. Ladies didn't go into the Front Bar. It was a male safe place. Ladies and visiting gentlemen went to the Lounge Bar. They served sandwiches and wine and had a code of behaviour. When the law was passed that you couldn't discourage women from entering the Front Bar on the grounds that women could take anything that a man could take, the lounge bar disappeared and the code of behaviour was introduced into the Front Bar. This seems like a Lounge Bar.

[–]MockingDead -5 points-4 points-3 points 13 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[+][deleted] -7 points-6 points-5 points 13 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Title	Announcing FeMRA, the /r/ainbow of /r/ladymra. Moderated (lightly) by our resident video FeMRAs, GirlWritesWhat and TyphonBlue
Author	MrStonedOne
Upvotes	59
Comments	82
Date	July 27, 2012 1:56 AM UTC (13 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/x83rm/announcing_femra_the_rainbow_of_rladymra/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/announcing-femra-the-rainbow-of-rladymra-moderated.1017074 https://theredarchive.com/post/1017074

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