How can I talk about the MRM without getting people pissed off.

ReignDance · 2012-06-09T23:40:53+00:00

Unfortunately, you're almost guaranteed to get yelled at by people who get defensive. It's nice that you don't want to offend people, but the best thing to do is to talk about men's rights with logical facts and argument; whether people find it irritating or not. Logical people will listen and possibly support the cause. I hope everything works out for you. Good luck!

ThePigman · 2012-06-10T03:01:18+00:00

There is no way around it. People will continue to get pissed off for quite a while. The idea is to get them accustomed to these topics by going on and on until they just can't stand it anymore and start taking you seriously, if only to get you to shut up. Then of course, our ideas will be floating around in their heads and many will realize that those loud, obnoxious MRAs are probably right after all.

creepyeyes · 2012-06-10T07:56:58+00:00

A couple things:

1) Pick your battles. There are such things as innocent little jokes, and it's a good idea to know who you're talking to. Is this someone who is willing to at least have a discussion? No? Then you're better of saving your breath because otherwise both parties will just walk away feeling upset with nothing gained. The people who are willing to at least have a discussion about it are the ones worth talking to, even if they're just not able to see your side of it. Besides, like Professor Oak is so famous for saying, there's a time and place for everything. Know when is an appropriate time to get into a potentially heated debate. Your niece's birthday party or while consoling a friend in distress are bad times. This is the rule I see broken the most on here.

2) Don't just focus on men's issues. If you see someone being sexist, racist, homophobic, etc. call them out on it, regardless of who is being victimized. Men, women, blacks, whites, gays, lesbians, straights, transgenders, cisgenders, anyone. Everyone is worth standing up for. If you only care about mens rights, you'll come off as kind of a douche, because if those are the only people group of people you care about, that is pretty douchey, if you'll pardon my language.

3) Don't let your jimmies get rustled. There is no need to be upset. If you start to escalate, it will only make the person you're talking to want to escalate more. If you're remaining calm and collected and they're escalating; then best case scenario is that they'll start to cool off themselves, worst case is that to any bystanders they'll look like an asshole and you won't. Plus, even if you can't sway their opinion, if you didn't get mad, it's not going to ruin your day or anything because you're not mad. Oh well, battle lost, war goes on, etc.

4) Be friendly and kind. See things from their point of view. Understand why they think what they think. What life experiences have caused them to have these conclusions? Approach the argument as though you both actually want the same thing, because odds are actually fairly good you both actually do want the same thing: gender equality. (If they actively know they don't want gender equality, then you'd be hard pressed to convince them of anything, and if you don't want gender equality then please ignore this post because I don't want you to win any arguments.) It's far easier to get someone to consider your point of view when they see you as a potential ally, and not as a foe. If you're kind, even if you don't win your argument, at the very least they should still be able to respect you and your beliefs in one of those "let's agree to disagree" type deals.

5) Listen to what they're saying. It's quite possible they've actually got a few very interesting points that you hadn't considered. This is okay. In fact, it's great. Challenging and re-evaluating your own beliefs is a very good thing. If someone has a counter-argument that you just can't defend against, you should concede them that point, because otherwise you become the asshole who won't listen to reason. Ideally, both parties should be walking away from this debate having learned something new. Also, make sure that your arguments actually do counter what the other person is saying. Don't be like a politician in a debate and just recite talking points regardless of their relevancy.

Points 1, 3, 4, and 5 are relevant for any and all arguments and debates you might ever have. Points 2, 3, and 4 are good at all times, argument or no.

Lothrazar · 2012-06-10T04:22:28+00:00

This sometimes works for me, at least for specific cases : Swap the Genders.

I cant think of good examples, but say someone is like "dont hire him hes a man", and you complain and they say its not sexist.

Flip it around and say "oh so we cant hire person x because shes a woman? same logic right"

Works good also with sex stuff, like the female teacher and male students.

absolutezero1287 · 2012-06-10T07:05:31+00:00

Dude, I can't even talk about Men's Rights without getting heated about all the crap us guys have to put up with.

FascistOrigami · 2012-06-10T00:29:15+00:00

It will be a slow process, but I don't think it's hopeless. A few years ago I didn't understand the issues and would have been appalled at the idea of MR. Now I'm a staunch supporter. It just takes time. As society falls apart because of feminist ideology (and there's no way it can fail to do that) people will begin to understand.

2012-06-10T01:11:07+00:00

Frame it as a discussion about human rights/individual rights/equal rights.

Remember that you can't control how people will react.

blitz_omlet · 2012-06-10T08:44:32+00:00

Only ever state something that is air fucking tight.

It's a good rule to have in general, really, but in this context, you're not overextending beyond what you could absolutely prove with either linked statistics (online) or being able to cite a source that anybody with a smart phone or the motivation to look it up when they get home could verify and assess as correct.

Eg. In xyz US state, there is no provision that a pregnancy which was the result of a woman statutorily raping a boy cannot end in the boy or his family being mandated to pay child support. There is a precedent for this in xyz case (in actual use I'd just search /r/mensrights for the relevant links).

The other thing is knowing when to bring it up. You can't decide in the morning upon waking that today is the day to evangelise your cause. If you introduce a subject while it's vaguely pertinent, it's going to be better received, you aren't breaking any social contracts relating to conversation and it'll probably be better retained. For example, during the Justin Beiber paternity case thing that was in the news for a couple weeks, someone else bringing that up would be an excellent opportunity to talk about that specific law.

Compared to the potential reward of him settling out of court, him losing the case sans paternity test (he was always obviously not the father) etc, the penalty of perjury (which is demonstrably less for female offenders) is nothing. This shows something that is wrong with the system.

If you want to make it your business to talk to people about MRM, plan it out like an essay. Think about how you'd establish what you want to assert. Where are areas where you could be challenged? If you can easily answer to those challenges, be sure you can recall and elaborate if needed, or incorporate it into the main "message" if you can't, reduce the scope of your claim. There is no reason, ever, to say something as meek, vague and easily ridiculed as "yeah men kinda get a raw deal too." Follow that shit through and do it properly.

The biggest mistake I see is people bringing up genderflipped examples / double standards when a woman complains about something happening to them. It's bad for a few reasons.

Firstly, it encourages the gender oppression pissing contest that takes energy from equality efforts on both sides and which men are destined to lose anyway because of how mainstream discourse is dominated by the relevant paradigms. Secondly, she's obviously not discussing the politics of female oppression; she's just talking about one shitty experience. Even most "feminist" (by self-label rather than lobbying or similar) women aren't going to ascribe every negative experience they have with the vast voodoo male conspiracy. Finally, it's a bit of a dick move to not let someone just vent. If they say something like "all men are pigs", and you really need to correct them by saying that they're making a false generalisation, wait until they've calmed down and phrase it by building maleness up or helping her be optimistic rather than challenging what she's said. Confrontation like that isn't always the best option but people seem to act like it isn't just the best way, but that there's something wrong with people who don't see it like this and it gives them a convenient way to dismiss a lot of people as not worth talking to about MRM. But those are the people you need to speak to about MRM for anything to happen! Madness.

shady8x · 2012-06-10T06:55:36+00:00

Outside of the internet? No idea.

While online we have access to examples, research studies and a ton of other information. We can link to it, quote it and people can't dismiss it easily, even though some still do.

In the real world, unless they already know some of the background information or trust you, they will just dismiss your words as lies or think you are crazy.

It is the same as pretty much any group. You might as well ask: How do you convince a republican that Obama is doing lots of good things? How do you convince a democrat that Obama is doing lots of bad things?

The_Patriarchy · 2012-06-10T07:29:26+00:00

It really depends on the venue and your relationship to the people you're addressing. Sometimes, it actually helps if people get pissed off. If you're in a public forum, like Reddit, and you're reasonably presenting your case, and your opposition are acting like raging idiots, you'll have a better chance of convincing the unaligned lurkers reading the conversation. In real life, it's probably better to just mention various news stories and gauge their reaction. "Hey, did you hear about that woman cutting off her husbands dick because he wanted a divorce?" Something like that opens up all sorts of potential conversation (e.g. the reaction on that TV show, the reaction of the feminist movement to the Bobbit incident, etc.) and will allow you to determine whether or not they're receptive to MR ideas (i.e. if they laugh about it or act like he deserved it, then you know they're not).

Most important, above everything else, is that you only present a defensible position. There are a lot of people on r/MR who take other indefensible positions on various issues (e.g. conspiracy theories, bastardized pop-evo-psych, etc.). Ignore them. Find your own core issues (the issues you most care about), educate yourself about those issues, and don't allow yourself to be baited into areas where you may not be as strong. Study this so you can avoid making fallacious arguments, and can spot (and highlight) the fallacious arguments made by others. Also study this to recognize your own errors in thinking, and to get a better understand of the ways others may become confused/misled.

ZimbaZumba · 2012-06-10T13:52:23+00:00

People get pissed because of -ve Urban Myths about the Men's Rights Movement and the fact that people are really uniformed about the issues. These state of affairs is maintained by our detractors.

The way to bring it up is not to mention Mens Rights explicitly but slowly inform them of the issues, they are self evidently reasonable causes. There is a good list here

http://goodmenproject.com/ethics-values/the-top-10-issues-of-mens-rights/

I also think the list should have included financial abortion. Have some data at your finger tips as well.

Make your case unassumingly and frame it as a human rights issue. Don't introduce too many issues at once and basically convert them by stealth over time.

mra4ever · 2012-06-10T16:11:10+00:00

Hell even here, most men are so afraid of being labelled a "woman-hater" or offending women that the movement will never get off the ground.

How do you think feminists got to where they are? Surely not by playing nice or being afraid of stepping on anyones toes.

rightsbot · 2012-06-09T23:32:17+00:00

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funnyfaceking · 2012-06-10T05:43:02+00:00

Who cares if people get pissed off?

picopallasi · 2012-06-10T10:38:39+00:00

The best you can do is keep it rational, keep it empirical. Nothing more to add here that others haven't.

carchamp1 · 2012-06-10T10:58:20+00:00

Honestly, I don't think there's any way to avoid the yelling. BTW the yelling is a means to intimidate you and shut you up. You're just going to have to live with it or give into them and forget about men's and father's rights.

SDcowboy82 · 2012-06-10T12:41:42+00:00

Remember many people get in an argument to win, then think about the subject matter later. make your case and be polite / kind. your ideas may not hit them till tomorrow.

BarryOgg · 2012-06-10T13:39:33+00:00

If possible, have a lady friend who shares your views to accompany you and support you in the discussion. It makes you immune to some of the chapest shots your adversaries could make ("you just hate women" etc.).

DougDante · 2012-06-10T14:09:44+00:00

You can talk about specific news items that exemplify the issues. Did you hear about that poor guy from Topeka who spent 20 years in jail for a rape he didn't commit? Awful!

2012-06-10T14:30:59+00:00

When people DON'T get mad at you for talking about MRM, then you have succeeded. And not before. May you live that long.

Lawtonfogle · 2012-06-10T15:05:56+00:00

Avoid any naming of the issue. Avoid even appearing to be pro-men, just put the facts out there and let people come to their own decisions. If they are really being hardheaded, frame it as a double sexism problem. For example:

"I hate the way people treat women who get drunk and have sex. Men who have sex while drunk are treated like adults, who are still responsible for their choices, while women are treated like children who can't be trusted. Not only do they then end up punishing any man who touched her, they reinforce the notion that she is childish and not able to handle responsibility. Of course, no one should do anything sexual to a person who had drunk enough to pass out, I'm just talking about when people have only had a couple of beers."

tailcalled · 2012-06-10T15:13:59+00:00

Also, some people reduce sexism to this:

There are two groups of children, and they both get some chocolate. However, one group gets more chocolate than the other group, so children from both groups say it's unfair. In the end, the people giving children chocolate begin slowly increasing the amount of chocolate the second group gets. The second group hasn't been given as much chocolate as the first group yet, but now children from the first group see that the second group is getting more chocolate, so now the first group wants more chocolate too.

while in reality it's more like this

Two groups of children get chocolate and popcorn, but one group gets more chocolate while the other gets more popcorn. Some children from both groups find out about the chocolate, but forgot the popcorn, and they start demanding that the children get the same amount of chocolate. Eventually the amount of chocolate the second group got began to increase, and children from both groups began realizing that the other group gets more popcorn, so they start demanding that they get the same amount of popcorn.

rodvanmechelen · 2012-06-11T01:26:55+00:00

Start by agreeing. "Can we all agree that women should be treated with equity and respect? No more of that sexist bs? Okay, good. And the same should go for men, too, right?"

AlexFeiton · 2012-06-11T00:10:35+00:00

Definitely a good thing to avoid is the use of the term "men's rights" entirely. Just bring up the issues. Throw out facts. You can build up a massive wall of data and theoretical support for MR without ever labeling yourself. Feminists, for sure, are programmed to explode whenever they hear the words "men's rights", "masculism", "misandry", etc. There's just no need to put a label on it until after you've made your case.

Present only facts, yes. But this doesn't mean only taking small bites. Paint big pictures of oppression of men, and make sure women aren't involved at all, so it's an exclusively male problem.

You shouldn't ever be explaining the definitions of words like the one's I listed, too. Neither should you be naming any organizations, or this sub-reddit, or whatever. It's also good to avoid stuff like "feminazi", or even the word "feminism". Use neutral and efficient language. You can still adequately portray the emotional significance of our cause without using words that will ping their douche-bag radar. Don't pin yourself down in relation to any -isms. That will just distract them and give them something they can bitch about.

TL;DR: Feminists can only digest small, neutral words.

CrawdaddyJoe · 2012-06-10T00:32:24+00:00

Well, you can try to avoid the misogyny, anti-feminism (based largely on hugely misinformed ideas about feminism), and regressive traditionalism that some in the MRM project. A critique of male gender roles that recognizes that liberation isn't a zero-sum game, and that embraces an actual liberation of all people from the confines of gender roles, may be well received by many people.

Title	How can I talk about the MRM without getting people pissed off.
Author	TheRedBarrage
Upvotes	24
Comments	49
Date	June 9, 2012 11:31 PM UTC (14 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/utu8n/how_can_i_talk_about_the_mrm_without_getting/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/how-can-i-talk-about-the-mrm-without-getting.1020096 https://theredarchive.com/post/1020096

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