~ archived since 2018 ~

Yet MORE proof that radical feminists are out to silence all but themselves, the "ladies" at radfem hub stating that transwomens voice's arent welcome in feminist spaces.

Scott2508

January 2, 2012

77 upvotes

/r/MensRights

http://radicalhub.wordpress.com/2012/01/01/on-credibility/#more-6487

Download the post

Want to save the post for offline use on your device? Choose one of the download options below:

PDF TXT EPUB

Post Information

Title	Yet MORE proof that radical feminists are out to silence all but themselves, the "ladies" at radfem hub stating that transwomens voice's arent welcome in feminist spaces.
Author	Scott2508
Upvotes	77
Comments	91
Date	January 2, 2012 2:32 PM UTC (14 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/nzsdv/yet_more_proof_that_radical_feminists_are_out_to/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/yet-more-proof-that-radical-feminists-are-out-to.1029748 https://theredarchive.com/post/1029748

Comments

[–][deleted] 21 points22 points23 points 14 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] 20 points21 points22 points 14 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[–]Demonspawn 4 points5 points6 points 14 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points4 points 14 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[+][deleted] 14 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[permanently deleted]

[–]MRMRising 3 points4 points5 points 14 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]demiurgency 1 point2 points3 points 14 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]photogrl88 1 point2 points3 points 14 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]loose-dendrite 0 points1 point2 points 14 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]venomous_harridan 1 point2 points3 points 14 years ago (99 children) | Copy Link

[–]duglock 27 points28 points29 points 14 years ago (78 children) | Copy Link

[–]Brutal_Antipathy 5 points6 points7 points 14 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

[+]duglock -11 points-10 points-9 points 14 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

[–]A_Nihilist 9 points10 points11 points 14 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[–]duglock 2 points3 points4 points 14 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]A_Nihilist 3 points4 points5 points 14 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]mostlysleeping 3 points4 points5 points 14 years ago (61 children) | Copy Link

[–]Scott2508[S] 10 points11 points12 points 14 years ago (59 children) | Copy Link

[+][deleted] 14 years ago (56 children) | Copy Link

[permanently deleted]

[–]Scott2508[S] 14 points15 points16 points 14 years ago (55 children) | Copy Link

[+][deleted] 14 years ago (18 children) | Copy Link

[permanently deleted]

[–]Scott2508[S] -3 points-2 points-1 points 14 years ago (17 children) | Copy Link

[+][deleted] 14 years ago (16 children) | Copy Link

[permanently deleted]

[–]Scott2508[S] 4 points5 points6 points 14 years ago (15 children) | Copy Link

[+][deleted] -12 points-11 points-10 points 14 years ago (35 children) | Copy Link

[–]Scott2508[S] 9 points10 points11 points 14 years ago (21 children) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] 3 points4 points5 points 14 years ago (16 children) | Copy Link

[–]Scott2508[S] 3 points4 points5 points 14 years ago (15 children) | Copy Link

[+][deleted] 14 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

[permanently deleted]

[–]Scott2508[S] 5 points6 points7 points 14 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points3 points 14 years ago (12 children) | Copy Link

[–]AlyoshaV 1 point2 points3 points 14 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 14 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

If you read my other comments below, in this same thread, you'll see my general stance and justification: heterosexual, cis individuals are the overwhelming majority and norm in our culture. As such, "man" is synonymous with "heterosexual cis-man" by virtue of being the norm. Anything else needs to come up with modifiers to describe and differentiate from the norm. What they shouldn't do is tell the majority that they are no longer "men" but are "cis-men." That's kind of like a tatoo enthusiast insisting on calling the general public "unmarked people" while referring to other tatoo'd individuals as "marked people." He is the anomaly, and should recognize that.

If trans people made up a sizable chunk of the population, then I'd reconsider the terminology because what is "normal" would be changed. But until then, I'd prefer if everybody referred to me as I wish them to: as "man."

EDIT: Also forgot to mention that I have no trouble with adding "heterosexual" and "cis" to my label for clarification reasons.

[–][deleted] -5 points-4 points-3 points 14 years ago* (9 children) | Copy Link

[–]Whisper 0 points1 point2 points 14 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 14 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 14 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]Scott2508[S] 1 point2 points3 points 14 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]Whisper 1 point2 points3 points 14 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] -1 points0 points1 point 14 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[+]venomous_harridan -8 points-7 points-6 points 14 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

[–]Legolas-the-elf 4 points5 points6 points 14 years ago* (1 child) | Copy Link

I am most definitely not inviting another 'it is my right as a straight man to not want to fuck transwomen' discussion. That's a stupid discussion.

Considering that's pretty much the only way transgenderism gets mentioned here.

This very submission was talking about trans issues without talking about disclosure. And guess what? You steered it around to disclosure.

This is why you see disclosure talked about in so many of the trans submissions here. Because trolls like you won't let us talk about anything else! Every time somebody brings up trans issues, yep, people like you are there to derail people into talking about disclosure.

You want to have trans issues discussed without being derailed by disclosure? Attack the trolls derailing discussion instead of being one of them.

Edit: venomous_harridan posts in /r/ShitRedditSays, what a surprise.

[–]venomous_harridan 1 point2 points3 points 14 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]Whisper 2 points3 points4 points 14 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]duglock 6 points7 points8 points 14 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[+]chavelah -7 points-6 points-5 points 14 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

[–]Legolas-the-elf 6 points7 points8 points 14 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

[–]chavelah 0 points1 point2 points 14 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

I see your point. My husband, for example, has a marked sexual preference for thin women, but doesn't believe that fat women aren't real women (or that men who have a sexual preference for fat women are not real men).

But it's just not the same. A thin woman who was once fat is not a transfat (so to speak). Nobody expects her to disclose her history of fatness to potential lovers. There may be physical markers of her former fatness, but there well may not be. If a man pursued her, only to recoil in disgust when he discovered an old picture of her as a fat person, the last thing anybody would suggest is that she was at fault for failing to disclose her medical history.

When it comes to gender dysmorphic disorder and sexual reassignment surgery, things are a little more fraught, eh? Some reasonable people believe that a person can become a member of the opposite sex through surgery, and some reasonable people disagree.

[–]Gareth321 3 points4 points5 points 14 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]chavelah 3 points4 points5 points 14 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]Legolas-the-elf 12 points13 points14 points 14 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Question: has mensrights ever been particularly welcoming to trans issues?

Was that a question or an accusation?

/r/MensRights is welcoming to trans men and women.

Because infrequent discussions about how you don't want to fuck transwomen probably isn't attracting many transgendered people into mensrights spaces.

Ah, it wasn't a question, it was an accusation.

For the most part, the people here are welcoming of trans men and women, but object to the idea that it is okay for them to not disclose their trans status before having sex with somebody.

There are some people who immediately decry this as being transphobic, irrational bigotry. If you think this way, then yes, /r/MensRights is probably not for you. But there are many people, both trans and not, who think that disclosure is reasonable. You don't get to dictate somebody's sexuality to them, and if somebody doesn't want to sleep with trans people, that's their call. Unfortunately, trolls won't let trans topics be discussed here without attempting to derail them into the disclosure topic. So yes, you'll see that dominate any discussion of trans issues. Want to stop it? Attack the trolls, not the /r/MensRights regulars.

I've also noticed a number of trolls who will goad people into talking about disclosure, then use the existence of the discussion as "proof" that everybody in /r/MensRights is paranoid about "stealth trans people". It is a silencing tactic designed to shut down any discussion that doesn't immediately kowtow to their opinions. /r/MensRights does not spontaneously decide "hey, let's complain about trans people", it's a specific type of trolling, thankfully infrequent.

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points4 points 14 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points4 points 14 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[–]venomous_harridan -1 points0 points1 point 14 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]loose-dendrite 0 points1 point2 points 14 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] 4 points5 points6 points 14 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

[–]venomous_harridan -4 points-3 points-2 points 14 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] 6 points7 points8 points 14 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]BarryOgg 1 point2 points3 points 14 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

[–]venomous_harridan 1 point2 points3 points 14 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[–]BarryOgg 0 points1 point2 points 14 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Here's a funny thought: maybe I'm giving Ignatius_loyola too much credit and he isn't devious like that, but I think the primary target of LGBT awareness month some time ago (logo change, etc.) wasn't actually to raise the awareness or anything like that. It was to drive away the worst of the ~~trolls~~ offenders (I prefer to not call them trolls because they weren't trying to stir shit just for the sake of it, they were just assholes), who took offense at /r/mr for supporting LGBT issues, evean if it was mostly nominal support. If that's the case, it was a success, as I haven't seen Demonspawn and ThigsAreBad for a long time. And good riddance.

And if you really want change to happen, the best thing is to work for it yourself. Me? I like to think that it was mainly my suggestion which resulted it changing the 'conspiracy' bit in the sidebar.

[–]loose-dendrite 0 points1 point2 points 14 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

During Transgender Month a great deal of transgender advocates came in here to call us names, derail, and generally act like shit heads. Very few attempts at actually educating anyone here were attempted; it's possible that no honest attempts were made since I didn't see any. If this community defaults to hostility to transgender advocates then it's because some transgender advocates gave the rest a bad name. Shitty, but part of the MRM's PR problem is for similar reasons.

From what I can tell, the MRM doesn't care about trans people any more than it cares about anyone else. The MRM is structured around concrete problems faced by men so the MRM doesn't have ideology to make us conclude that trans people don't belong in our spaces. I think that if a transman wanted a voice here, he'd get it. My guess is that uniquely trans problems are bigger than uniquely male problems so a transman probably has more to gain from trans activists than men's rights.

[–]DoktorTeufel 1 point2 points3 points 14 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

infrequent discussions about how you don't want to fuck transwomen probably isn't attracting many transgendered people into mensrights spaces

Transgender advocates will (in my experience) be first in line to point out that "sex" and "gender" aren't synonymous: "Sex" refers to the biological reproductive capabilities a person is born with, whereas "gender" refers to a mindset, role within society, and/or set of specific characteristics.

While transgender people can change their gender to a great extent, they can never change their biological sex. I therefore think it's reasonable for straight men and women to prefer not to have sex with transgender partners. The transformation from female to male or male to female isn't all-encompassing. You're still dealing with someone who has two X chromosomes or an X and a Y chromosome, regardless of hormone therapy and sex reassignment/plastic surgery.

In my opinion, straight men and women have a right to know if their partner is transgender. I'm aware that this is a viciously unpopular opinion among ultra-liberals. I'm not even saying I wouldn't have sex with a transgender male (I've never been in that situation, so I wouldn't know; or if I have, I didn't notice, which doesn't seem to bother me), I'm simply saying that said partners have a right to disclosure and the right to choose not to have sex with someone for whatever reason.

[–]Scott2508[S] 2 points3 points4 points 14 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]memymineown 1 point2 points3 points 14 years ago* (3 children) | Copy Link

[+][deleted] 14 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[permanently deleted]

[–]memymineown 0 points1 point2 points 14 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]celledge 3 points4 points5 points 14 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]kragshot 0 points1 point2 points 14 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Most of us are open to transgender issues. Transmen are now men and are subject to male issues and therefore deserving of our support. Transwomen were once men and still suffer a degree of male-focused discrimination from a number of feminists (particularly "women-born-women" feminists) and are also deserving of our support.

But the one issue that you do see some contention with in our dialogs is the discussion regarding birth-sex disclosure. There are a significant number of MRM folks who feel that birth sex disclosure is an issue of "informed consent" in any kind of relationship. This of course goes contrary to the concern of personal safety that many transwomen have in that regard.

The other issue is of course, the one you just mentioned regarding men having relationship/sexual preferences against transwomen. A significant number of MRM members feel that everyone should have the individual right to choose their sexual partners based upon whatever criteria they deem appropriate and some feel that that criteria should include born/trans status. Furthermore, they feel that such a right of choice does not make them bigoted. We do not live in a totally enlightened world and being completely sexually accepting of a transperson is still a big stretch for some people.

But having points of contention in some areas does not mean that we are not incompatible in regards to the overall goal of equality.

[+][deleted] -20 points-19 points-18 points 14 years ago* (22 children) | Copy Link

[–]Darkling5499 15 points16 points17 points 14 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

[+][deleted] -16 points-15 points-14 points 14 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[–]Gareth321 7 points8 points9 points 14 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]Darkling5499 0 points1 point2 points 14 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]A_Nihilist 7 points8 points9 points 14 years ago (15 children) | Copy Link

[+][deleted] -13 points-12 points-11 points 14 years ago (14 children) | Copy Link

[–]A_Nihilist 9 points10 points11 points 14 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] 4 points5 points6 points 14 years ago* (12 children) | Copy Link

No it isn't. That's just a rationalization by people who don't want it publicly known they are trans.

Honesty would be saying "I am a transsexual who identifies as <x>".

Dishonesty is hiding it intentionally because you know people would want to know.

A person born with male sex organs can become a woman, sure. However they will never be the same as a person born with female sex organs who stays a woman. Sorry, no amount of political correctness is going to change that.

It is dishonest and over-stepping of you to claim that all transsexuals believe they have a right to intentionally mislead their sexual partners. There's nothing wrong with being trans, just like there's nothing wrong with being gay. What's wrong is deception.

The issue here is power and control, not phobia. Some transexuals know that it is power to keep that secret. THAT is the issue. I'm bi - I'll sleep with a male, female, transexual, or android. I want to know who I'm sleeping with though.

If you've got a cock but claim to be a woman, it's not transphobia to expect a little clarity and disclosure.

[–][deleted] -1 points0 points1 point 14 years ago (9 children) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] 3 points4 points5 points 14 years ago (8 children) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] -4 points-3 points-2 points 14 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] 4 points5 points6 points 14 years ago* (6 children) | Copy Link

Enraged to the point of violence? No I wouldn't be that. However it is still a pretty large deception considering that it is clearly important to many people. Let us be clear here too. Women have become upset too when they found out their 'man' was born a woman too.

A better analogy would be finding out that the person you were sleeping with was a coworker of your ex, had gathered all kinds of insider information about you (and tastes) - and had intentionally hid it. You wouldn't normally think to ask about that directly, but if they were evasive answering about where they worked that's a lie by omission. What it is really about is a breach of trust. The trans person may not want it to mattter but if it matters to the other person and they hid it from them, then it is still intentionally hiding something they knew mattered to the other person.

Again though, transphobia is tossed out here not because of any real phobia, but because people want power. The power to hide what others would want to know behind the phobia accusation isnt a power you would expect anyone to want to give up. That is just self interest at work. I don't really expect them to consider the feelings of their partner when it might cost them that power. That's expecting trans people to be more noble than the average person.

It would be ludicrous for people to start claiming they were "really" another race or "I identify as handicapped so should be able to park in handicapped spots". People can identify as whatever they want, but that doesn't mean anyone who doesn't accept fully and completely by bringing down blinders to pretend it is exactly the same - is a hate-mongering whatever-phobe.

For the record it isn't a fetish like I've heard it is for some, but I have no problem sleeping with a trans person. I don't even care if they were MtF or FtM. This is a wedge-topic though, meant to sling mud at men about. Go to /2xc and ask the same question. See how they respond.

[–][deleted] -1 points0 points1 point 14 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] 3 points4 points5 points 14 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

That's not really what I'm talking about though. None of these "I'd be upset if I slept with a transwoman" stories seem to mention "I ask women if they're trans as a matter of course". It's hard to give an evasive answer to a question that hasn't been asked.

In the real world we rarely ask direct yes/no questions. We ask exploratory questions meant to map out areas.

You seem to be avoiding the topic of "lies by omission" A lie by omission isn't just not bringing something up, it is tactically choosing to answer things in a way that purposely doesn't include certain information. With a long conversation there's plenty of opportunity to answer in purposely evasive ways - to lie by omission.

I'd agree with this, but I think it's more in the area of "I don't want to be murdered for being trans and revealing it to the wrong person".

If trans people argued it from that standpoint I'd support them. I don't want them harmed just as I don't want the people they sleep with harmed.

I don't support the rationalized "it's our right to deceive and mislead the people we sleep with and you are a transphobe if you don't agree" bullshit though. That's just a power play built on rationalizing not justifying deception.

[+]AlyoshaV -6 points-5 points-4 points 14 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] -2 points-1 points0 points 14 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]frostek 1 point2 points3 points 14 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[+][deleted] -11 points-10 points-9 points 14 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[+]mostlysleeping -9 points-8 points-7 points 14 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[+][deleted] -6 points-5 points-4 points 14 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] -2 points-1 points0 points 14 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link