So are gay men's rights somehow less important than straight men's rights?

Shattershift · 2011-09-30T21:32:30+00:00

I believe gay men are part of the MRM, but I'm not sure how often gay men are discriminated against on the basis of being men, as opposed to being gay.

Also, if a gay man is being discriminated on the basis of his orientation, it isn't a MR concern, but an LGBT concern. I support gay rights, but it's in a different section of thought than the MRM and Feminism, which are gender based.

TL;DR: Gay rights are important, and they aren't mutually exclusive from the MRM/Feminism, but they are distinct from the MRM/Feminism, which deal with gender. If you're being discriminated against for being a man, that's relevant.

2011-10-01T15:42:49+00:00

Anyone believe otherwise, that LGBT rights aren't at all relevant to r/mensrights?

Relevant to Men's Rights as a whole? Maybe--but as MannerofSpeaking has already pointed out, gay men are often not being targeted because they are MEN, but because they are GAY. In that case, LGBT rights organizations--of which there are many, supported by taxpayer funds at the local, state, regional, national, and international level--can take the lead on that. There is still NOT ONE Men's Rights organization that can claim that amount of institutional support and advocacy. Not one.

As for being relevant to this subreddit, I don't think LGBT issues are relevant to this subreddit, as /lgbt already exists to cover those issues; /feminisms, /2xc, and a host of other feminist subreddits also concern themselves with lgbt issues as well. Not one of these sites, including /lgbt, recognizes Men's Rights as a viable discussion of inequality in the west; so if they do not recognize us, why should we recognize them?

And I'm not even saying that there aren't relevant MR issues in discussions of the mistreatment of gays--especially the overwhelming disparity between the treatment of male homosexuality (as deviant sexual perversion and a sign of mental disorder) vs. female homosexuality (as a joyous discovery of self and connection to feminine community). While this attitude has been changing in the past 20 years, it's still largely the case that homosexual women (bisexual women are now just "curious") have almost entirely avoided the stigma associated with male-to-male sexuality in western culture. One can think of numerous theories to explain this, but the fact remains that one homosexual behavior is widely accepted, and the other is not, and that acceptance is predicated on gender.

So really, what you're trying to do is paint all MRAs as homophobes just because your pet cause isn't being focused upon. My pet cause is Libertarianism; but I am nice enough to keep my libertarian posts generally off MR, simply because it's not fucking relevant to the subreddit. And even when it is, I always think about trying to emphasize that relevance to the subreddit, because that's good fucking reddiquette.

pcarvious · 2011-09-30T20:53:39+00:00

I think the issue that's being run into right now isn't an issue of importance, but an issue of conflicting biases. Mens rights encompasses a huge general area. Under that umbrella are lgbtq issues, fathers rights issues, issues about male versus female relationship dynamics and much broader areas of legal equality.

There's a sort of conception that there are activists for lgbtq issues, but not very much for other subsets of men. Mens rights should be about all men, but all people have different inclinations as to where people stand. It's sad that protections are scarce enough to have to be competed for.

Is that justification? No. However no single activist group will be able to address, redress or challenge all forms of inequality at once.

altxatu · 2011-09-30T20:54:34+00:00

I didn't notice any homophobic stuff in here. If they are they should be called out and downvoted.

The LGBTs already have their own special group and even their own subreddit, I don't see the point of having their issues covered here. If the issue concerns men in general then yes they should be posted here, whether or not the man in question is a homosexual. However if the issue is specifically about gays then submitting it to r/lgbt would be more appropriate as they will be able to understand and provide better assistance. That said, no one is adverse to gay men providing their opinion here or submitting articles with issues in MR, because they too are men.

Offensive_Brute · 2011-10-01T01:39:40+00:00

The issue at hand is that the majority of Gay mens issues, are not a result of their gender, but their sexual preference. There are some gay mens issues that over lap with heterosexual mens issues, but the vast majority do not.

Its not whether they are more or less important, but whether or not they are at all relevent to the MRM.

Il128 · 2011-10-01T03:00:32+00:00

Um... Men's rights are Men's rights. Gay or straight. Equality.

2011-09-30T20:02:08+00:00

I'm not sure I've seen what you describe, though I'm sure there is some of that, what with some of the "contributions" we get here.

So far as I can see, the debate seems to be about which issues we should consider Mens' Rights issues, and which issues we shouldn't. To say that something isn't a Mens' Rights issue is not to say it's unimportant, it's just to say this isn't the right place for it.

IMO (and it's up for debate) if an issue involves differences in rights/treatment/etc of men and women then it's a Mens' Rights issue. If a particular issue is just about the difference in rights/treatment/etc of gay people and straight people (or gay men and straight men) then it's not a Mens' Rights issue (though clearly a LGBT issue). (It's perfectly possible for an issue to be both, too.)

I don't see the logic or purpose in saying that any issue that affects a man is a Mens' Rights issue. If we do that we drown out specific Mens' Rights issues that are not being addressed elsewhere with racism/LGBT/etc issues that are.

Scott2508 · 2011-09-30T21:06:09+00:00

I do believe gay mens (or womens) rights are relevant. Why would mensrights threaten or seem to run counter to that? Homophobes are a fact of life in the hetro community. Hetrophobes are a fact of life in the gay community. I dont see a reason to not work together. My only enemy is systemic, institutionalised, sexism. Being male and straight, that is the lens I view things through generally. LGBT issues are legit issues but not my primary focus.

2011-10-01T05:03:44+00:00

If gay men are being discriminated against because they are MEN - regardless of their sexual orientation - than it's an MRA issue.

Works for me.

MrStonedOne · 2011-10-03T09:50:07+00:00

Gay rights ARE important to mra. Yes, any gay only issues would technicly be a gay rights issue, but what about gay marriage? moreso divorce and family court for gays?

Once courts are FORCED to look at something other then the gender to decide custody, departmental policies will be built around this. Once this happens freedom of information act opens the flood gates to demand what ever formula they figure out be used in all family court cases.

The same thing applys to DV police call outs.

The gay rights movement is forcing people to think beyond gender, and if we aren't doing everything to help them out in their moment, we have failed ours.

Scott2508 · 2011-09-30T21:57:56+00:00

ok trey , in going to call you as full of crap right now .

LGBT are important, and gay man have just as much value as straight men however there are many areas where the issues vary , homophobia is very different to say issues with divorce and cant be married up neither are more important HOWEVER there are large groups dedicated towards dealing with a lot of the injustices that homosexual men are facing while there are very few voices for hetrosexual men , and while it may not have been worded very well , its completely acceptable and justified that people are worried about one of the few areas where we can be heard is being silenced in favour of a group already well represented who we stand with .

This isnt homophobia, and playing that card is only going to alienate people here ive said , as have many others that they are relevant , in fact i actually managed tonight to find a link between mensrights and lesbians a feat i didnt think was possible.

Ill ask you this , we have stood up for men, its ingrained on this board that we represent them all , its more than i have seen from lgbt boards, in fact they regard us as scum , why is it one way traffic ?

AntiFeministMedia · 2011-09-30T20:30:39+00:00

The real argument is between men and women. Not gay or straight men.

Being a gay man means you fall into the male category, and so you are included by default.

The problem that I think some of the guys on here have, is that it seems by focusing on gay mens issues, we may become a gay mens rights movement, and which put gay mens rights first.

If we can just focus on those things that affect ALL men, wether gay or straight, but cruically not concentrate on male-male relationships, but male-female relationships, then there shouldnt be a problem imo. (Thats not to say we cant examine male-male relationships, but I think we should keep sexual relationships out of the discussion).

Same goes for black men in the MRM, nothing should be a black man issue, or a white man issue, we are ALL men. We need to be discussing those issues that affect us ALL, as regards our argument with women.

Ma99ie · 2011-10-01T01:44:49+00:00

all rights are important, as long as they are equal

Lawtonfogle · 2011-10-01T04:16:27+00:00

No, but consider this. As long as the biological father of a child is considered unfit to be raise his own flesh and blood unless he goes through tremendous hoops to prove he can, what hope does a gay couple have of ever being allowed to adopt?

2011-10-01T22:54:43+00:00

Jeez, some of you.

Yes, LGBT issues should be incredibly fucking integral in this movement. Gay men are not discriminated against because they are gay alone, they're discriminated HUGELY because they're gay men

Demonspawn · 2011-09-30T20:40:51+00:00

Anyone believe otherwise, that LGBT rights aren't at all relevant to r/mensrights?

They're not, unless they affect LGBT men on the basis of being men. This is a MEN's rights movement, not a movement for rights for everyone who happens to be male.

In fact, to quote the mod of this board

Mensrights is not about white rights or white supremacy.

This isn't really a gender issue, and is a race issue at best.

But, according to him, apparently LGBT rights is mensrights... I guess they are just "more equal" than white men. Apparently sexual orientation issues are gender issues in his mind.

2011-09-30T22:57:19+00:00

[permanently deleted]

2011-09-30T20:02:31+00:00

If society were more evolved perhaps they'd think to allow couples who aren't able to reproduce (be it a straight man / woman, to gay men/women what ever) to care for the abandoned children in our country, because the state/country fuck up everything they touch, so why are we allowing them to raise such a big percentage of our children.

NiceGuysSTFU · 2011-09-30T19:56:49+00:00

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thingsarebad · 2011-09-30T20:07:33+00:00

The correct question is "So are straight men's rights somehow less important than gay men's rights?"

NiceGuysSTFU · 2011-09-30T20:33:20+00:00

I agree w/ what you say 100%. I don't see what is so threatening to /MR about including links to LGBTQI articles here...

m0llusk · 2011-10-01T01:18:01+00:00

Compartmentalization and segmentation and useful for divide and conquer, but maybe not so good for moving forward together. Gay men are actively targeted in many ways and lack basic rights for marriage, personal safety, and so on. Protesting discrimination makes sense. Making possible gay marriage may be a good first step toward permitting and recognizing straight flexible relationships.

TheRealPariah · 2011-10-02T03:42:19+00:00

This is such a patently absurd assertion. Being a man with a problem doesn't make the problem a mensrights issue. It has nothing to do with homophobia, and I am getting rather tired of people pulling out that card if you ever disagree with anyone. It's the new race card.

thingsarebad · 2011-09-30T19:55:12+00:00

edited had to swap bisexual women & gay women.

According to society yes.

Straight men. Above Straight women Above Bisexual women Above Gay Women Above Gay Men Above Bisexual men Above Transexuals

Title	So are gay men's rights somehow less important than straight men's rights?
Author	treybuchet
Upvotes	3
Comments	62
Date	September 30, 2011 7:49 PM UTC (14 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/kwsxt/so_are_gay_mens_rights_somehow_less_important/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/so-are-gay-mens-rights-somehow-less-important-than.1033861 https://theredarchive.com/post/1033861

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