Just thought of perhaps the central double-standard behind feminism ...

kanuk876 · 2009-10-25T16:35:34+00:00

I am currently reading John Gordon's "The myth of the monstrous male, and other feminist fables", printed in 1982.

In regards to the OP, Gordon does the following exercise: make four columns on a piece of paper: M+, F-, F+, M-, representing positive-male, negative-female, positive-female, and negative-male traits. Under each column, list traits which come to mind for each. For example:

M+: strong, reliable, independent, adventuresome, analytical
F-: weak, flighty, dependent, timid, superstitious
F+: gentle, responsive, supportive, prudent, deep
M-: brutal, inflexible, selfish, reckless, legalistic

Feminists claim the first two columns, M+ and F-, are learned traits imposed by the patriarchy (nurture), whereas the second two columns, F+ and M-, are innate traits resulting from biological differences between men women and men (nature).

Notice how some traits have both positive and negative descriptors for essentially the same trait (eg: independent / loner, group-think / consensus). Gordon also points out that feminists reserve the right to choose how a given trait is interpreted based on the context and which interpretation is most favorable to women. Which is why a trait viewed as negative in men (eg: aggressive) is simultaneously viewed as positive in women (eg: assertive).

Gordon's entire book is filled with gems like this. I strongly recommend it to everyone here.

wil2200 · 2009-10-25T20:21:16+00:00

I'd like to see more women in the garbage industry, mining, construction, steel milling and related, logging, deep sea fishing

heelspider · 2009-10-26T04:21:32+00:00

When a woman tells me that men are more violent, I point out that women sleep with violent men. Any behavior that is rewarded with sex will continue.

ignatiusloyola · 2009-10-25T21:06:21+00:00

I was once told by a feminist that, "A feminist is a person who believes that women are people too."

I think this is a great definition, and I am a feminist under this definition.

But there are some people who claim to be feminists that go far beyond this definition. Christina Hoff Sommers describes these people as "Gender Feminists", and denotes others as "Equity Feminists". The Gender Feminists definitely fit your description, as well as that of kanuk876.

Nicely written comment, though. Thanks for sharing.

cryptogirl · 2009-10-26T01:06:09+00:00

Women have every right to be feminists, and men have every right to be men's rights activists. The people who take it to the extreme on either side, to the point of HATING someone from another gender, are wrong. Are there differences between men and women? Yes, but some of the differences are cultural and some biological. I think that we will all be better off when we can just 'be ourselves' rather than play some roll that we are born into (whether that be feminine or masculine).

So everybody just BACK off, and realize that 99% of the women you meet on a regular basis are feminists, and that they want what is best for themselves AND you. But the bat-shit crazy ones get the most attention. And the same goes for men. 99% of us are just regular joes who want what is best for us and women. But the bat-shit crazy ones who hate women get all of the attention.

ZuG · 2009-10-26T02:01:46+00:00

Here's the problem: With the second, we know from research that men commit proportionally more crimes than women. They also tend to get longer jail sentences for the same crime, which is clearly not fair, but even if you control for this and other factors, men still commit more crimes per capita. So, there's evidence.

The first has a lot less research to ascertain the causes behind it, at least in part because it's much fuzzier and harder to study than simply counting convictions and controlling for compounding factors. So we don't know why the first is true. Some evidence exists that women get "mommy-tracked", where it is assumed they will choose to put less effort into work because of a potential family, and also to sexism in the boardroom. The rest of the explanation is sort of up in the air, so your conjecture that women are less driven to be dominant is just that, a conjecture, whereas men commit more crimes which is a statistic backed up by numbers.

cryptogirl · 2009-10-26T01:29:56+00:00

Let me give my t-girl perspective:

I've lived with both male and female hormone levels, and from my own experience, I can say that there is a relationship between higher testosterone levels and a propensity to anger. So there probably is something to the idea that men are inherently more violent than women.

That said, I also have a sense that as a woman, I get better treatment from cops than men (until they figure out I'm trans, anyway). So yes, I think there's also some sexism at play as well. And God help you if you're a black man (but that's a different topic).

Biological sex differences and discrimination are both factors in the kind of gender disparities you're talking about here. In fact, sex discrimination tends to exaggerate biological differences precisely because those differences are used as justification for discrimination. Your argument that fewer women are CEOs because they are "less driven to dominant" makes me nervous because it seems discount the possibility that women are discriminated against in the workplace - a view which simply doesn't square with reality. I've read enough case law to know sex discrimination happens to women (and yes, to men as well).

Ultimately, I wonder why men's rights folks spend so much energy demonizing "feminism," and so little time actually working to end sex discrimination against men. You might be surprised how many feminists would count themselves as allies in that struggle.

Rygarb · 2009-10-25T19:35:52+00:00

That's because all women are perfect princesses who must be protected from the evil universe!

BenedictKenny · 2009-10-25T16:16:00+00:00

Cool.

Varo · 2009-10-25T22:06:15+00:00

false.

rodgling · 2009-10-25T21:22:52+00:00

Your idea is just sexist speculation, unless you've actually polled women on this?

Title	Just thought of perhaps the central double-standard behind feminism ...
Author	toosheds
Upvotes	42
Comments	82
Date	October 25, 2009 3:52 PM UTC (16 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/9xl40/just_thought_of_perhaps_the_central/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/just-thought-of-perhaps-the-central-double.1052320 https://theredarchive.com/post/1052320

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