Is it true that men's issues are caused by other men?

a-man-from-earth · 2021-06-07T03:22:18+00:00

This was reported as low effort, but it has generated some discussion, so we're keeping it up.

LacklustreFriend · 2021-06-05T19:35:18+00:00

Yes and no.

The issue is that there really isn't distinct and separate social force of men and women. Men and women live integrated, reciprocal symbiotic lives. While you might to point to a specific instance or influence as being due to either men or women, the reality is that the relations between the sexes are a tangled spiderweb.

I know that isn't really a satisfying answer, but it's the truth. Men and women are both participating in the "game" of society, and both contributing to it. I mean, look at the "relatively" simple issue of men being (expected to be) stoic. The feminists would claim something to the effect of the patriarchy devalues emotionality as a feminine trait so that's why men can't express emotion. Many people here would say that that women put a lot of social pressure on men to act this way - women hate a crying man. But the reality is that these women are responding to their own social (and biological) incentives to act a certain way, which is in turn influenced by men and other women, who are in turn influenced by.... On some level, it's just turtles all the way down. Which is why the antagonistic view between the sexes in patriarchy theory championed by feminism has to go.

Also even the statement that men cause their own problems if it were true on its face, it doesn't mean they are any less important as the 'gotcha' seems to imply. You could easily turn it back on them, and point out that FGM is almost entirely women-led and encouraged in the cultures that practice it. Yet that doesn't mean it isn't an issue that needs to be addressed.

local-void-entity · 2021-06-05T22:35:47+00:00

Not solely, no. Women make up half of the population, and I find it incredibly hard to believe that they have not in some way contributed to any problem faced by men. Even if they somehow didn't, it doesn't change the fact that these are problems and they need to be dealt with.

More often than not, I've seen this "men's problems are caused by other men" argument trotted out as an excuse as to why feminism shouldn't care about men's issues, which is an absolutely garbage argument and reeks of a lack of empathy.

So my response to this is, "so what?". It's not any more acceptable to let problems go unsolved because the people causing the problem and the people suffering from the problem share an identity. If you believe it is, you don't give a shit about equality.

iainmf · 2021-06-06T11:50:31+00:00

It doesn't matter. Injustice is injustice.

Why bring it up? Because it is a way of minimising men's issues.

My response to this is something like "I'm glad we agree that X is a problem, what do you think we should do about it?"

mhandanna · 2021-06-05T20:57:15+00:00

That would be playing things on feminists terms.... look when a good christian, muslim, jewish debator debates an atheist, they dont use the bible or quran etc to prove their religion.... they understand that the Bible or Quran or Torah are not believed by the atheist so it wouldnt be any point so they would instead use logic, reason, philosophy etc to argue God exists.

MRA is about solving issues. I dont care if mens isues whatever they be education, health, criminal justice or whatever are by men or women or whatever, I am here to solve problems.

Feminism of course doesn't apply this standard to itself or to womens issues - if something affects women, even if it is 100% the womans fault and womens fault, its still a feminst issue... however for men, everything is "well no no actually its not an issue,", if they finally then concede it is an issue, which feminism has been forced to do in past 10 years due to MRA they will say "no no no its socio economic though its not due to male gender" - well firstly often thats bullshit, but even if it wasn't im not playing that game.... its a mens issue, or to coin feminsits favoutite word "disporportionately affects women (welll in this case its men)"

Im less of the thought now to bother decbating feminists on these kind of points.... dont bother. Thats "deconstruction" instead BUILD your own narrative. Which MRAS are doing e.g. making Gamma biass, male dispoability, apex fallacy etc.

Same with toxoc masculinity, men need to talk more blah blah thats why suicide is high (bullshit).... froget debating it, make your own narrative.... e.g. see Tinmens post about we need to listen to men more, not "men need to speak out"

Its also far harder for people especially feminsits to debate these points then without sounding like complete sexist jackasses.... they will still try though.

weirdwriter123 · 2021-06-06T12:23:51+00:00

That feels dismissive and hypocritical. I mean when we talk about FGM we don't talk about how mothers take their own daughters to get their genitals mutilated. We just deal with it as a women's issue, like we should. Also, I find it funny that when women hate other women, it's because "internalised misogyny", but when men hate other men it's because of the "Patriarchy" and "Toxic masculinity". Although, I do agree with some of the points feminists make about toxic masculinity.

sleeping_chihuhua · 2021-06-06T10:01:01+00:00

There is a strong logical fallacy in that line of thinking. Men's issues could I suppose in some cases be argued to be "caused by other men" (for instance violence against men, or harrassment among children and teenagers).

BUT the transmission of culture and socialization is in most societies women's job: mothers still play a dominant role in education in most families and teachers and educators are in their vast majority women. These men who "cause men's problems" were educated "by women".

That being said, this whole argument is bankrupt and dumb at its root. Thinking that way is a sign of little empathy (a.k.a. blaming the victim for the gender of the perpetrator) AND is intellectually simplistic.

You wouldn't say "most problems of muslims immigrants are caused by other muslim immigrants" but "integration issues are perpetuated by a set of cultural and contextual factors, within and without the community". Blaming people rather than trying to understand factors and dynamics is not a mature way of thinking. It's how six year olds think.

BloomingBrains · 2021-06-05T21:17:16+00:00

Not exclusively, no. I haven't personally confronted every male issue there is, but the ones I have, there were also other men contributing to it. For example: the ruthless idea of not having any value/being a creep if you haven't been sexually selected by a female yet. Both men and women have called me things like incel or nice guy when I tried to express my frustrations about that.

seraph341 · 2021-06-06T12:43:02+00:00

Our society is made of all kinds of people, and I suppose that in theory anyone who doesn't make a conscious effort to counter the stereotypes and issues ends up contributing to keep them alive.

In short, some men and some women cause those issues. But the problem are the issues themselves, I don't think it's productive to be playing the blame game.

Saying that only men create male issues in my opinion is discarding women's responsibility and agency in our society.

azazelcrowley · 2021-06-09T21:42:16+00:00

No, it isn't true. You'll find these same people will deny reality and say most male rape victims are victims of other men and will also brazenly ignore stats on that and just keep repeating themselves.

For the same reason.

The point is to tell lies, gaslight, and abuse people, to derail attempts to help men and demonize them in order to maintain power over them, and hope that credulous morons will go along with it and then be too ashamed to admit they joined a hate movement and that that their usage of these kind of arguments reveals them to be gullible or hateful.

given the choice of admitting "You're right. I had a pro-woman bias and was too gullible and credulous, I believed all this nonsense they told me because it fit with my preconceptions, but I wasn't actively malicious." and deciding "Fuck it, I hate men now and will consciously pretend not to understand the point you just made", most of them opt for the second option because they have massively fragile egos and are largely incapable of ethically improving as individuals.

You don't debate with feminists.

You marginalize them.

You learn how to recognize them, learn why their nonsense is wrong, innoculate people against them, but the feminists themselves?

Broken beyond repair.

DIES-_-IRAE · 2021-06-05T23:12:08+00:00

No.

It's caused by the people who won't listen to men when they speak.

So to be honest, mostly feminists at this point.

Carkudo · 2021-06-06T04:42:40+00:00

I would say until recently it wasn't exactly wrong to say that. Both men and women perpetuate men's issues and are especially hostile to lower status men, but until recently most power was concentrated in the hands of men, so it was mostly men who were promoting harmful sexist policies. Nowadays though plenty of women hold institutional power and they've shown themselves to be just as willing to harm men and just reluctant to offer any help.

17abdul · 2021-06-06T10:47:46+00:00

No , the logic behind the idea is that because men lead they control everything , what people dont seem to understand is that patriachy wasnt made because men hate women and want to always be in control, but was a response to non technologically, morally , medically and philosophically advanced society

, work used to be mainly based on physical and who ever could do the most work, or was the most physically strong had the right to call the shots, because if you think about it , if it was about how men are just bad , why does this same concept apply to animals like lions , elephants , kangaroos, or even our biological cousins apes, gorillas and monkeys , why are their males in power and ruthless why do the females have to fight the males off , why do they kill offspring of other males , or attack other males and females for not bending to their will , that aren't there and why do assume it's not because humans gain a higher form of intelligence is the reason why none of us arent as savage ,

The reason why men issues arent just caused by other men can only occur if women played no part in society , and that as a collective men had issue but they dont , now whether or not society cares about the issues is a different case , society as a whole dont care , both men and women , men are still the most disposable regardless of what people say even if its other men disposable, the problem is that they are still the most needed in society so people have to care about them but hey maybe I am wrong to like maybe I am baised and I dont know what I am saying what are your thoughts

a-man-from-earth · 2021-06-07T01:13:18+00:00

[permanently deleted]

friendofalltehworld · 2021-06-08T08:19:23+00:00

My wife keeps leaving the seat in the toilet down - when I want it up!

matgirl2000 · 2021-06-09T10:30:13+00:00

I think you have to take a big BIG step back here to see almost a macro level of history. Who invented the different religions? Who invented the different forms of government? By and large men did. Not saying women were not a part of the system but were they a majority of the architects of the cultural systems that dominate people's lives? Not so much. So while yes women do raise men and women have always had leadership roles in society those roles were assigned to them, just like men's roles were assigned to them, by the culture creators who by and large for most society's were men.

kraftian · 2021-06-12T01:33:24+00:00

Well men have had vastly more power historically and even presently, but that doesn't mean men as a whole deserve the society we find ourselves in. just don't take it out on women dealing with their own shit, blame the elites (who just happen to be men, but we all know they're lizards)

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