'Toxic Masculinity' as a term, is toxic.

5th_Law_of_Robotics · 2020-09-15T10:45:26+00:00

If it truly only meant "the ways in which society teaches men they must be" then "toxic femininity" should be in the discourse equally as much. But that term is practically non existent.

TheTinMenBlog · 2020-09-15T09:39:56+00:00

Let’s help men open up by calling them toxic! You may think you are woke by using using the phrase toxic masculinity, you may even think you’re solving the problem. But you are not. And the majority of people surveyed think you are wrong too. Be better.

Source: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/341832524_Reactions_to_contemporary_narratives_about_masculinity_A_pilot_study

jkjkjij22 · 2020-09-15T12:34:51+00:00

Ultimately, its issue is linguistic ambiguity. "Toxic" can read as either a defining term of all masculinity (i.e., "masculinity is toxic"). Or it can be a limiting adjective of masculinity (I.e., "the subset of masculine characteristics that are toxic). I always read it as the former.
The other issue, is that there's no counterbalancing term for the good/neutral characteristics of masculinity. That is, the only adjective ever used in conjunction with "masculinity" is "toxic". This makes it seem that the only thing masculinity could be is toxic. Or that almost the entirety of masculine characteristics are toxic.
Was talking to a feminist friend of mine, and used "toxic femininity" to describe the subset of feminine traits that are harmful to women or society, and she was really offended, despite her having no qualms with "toxic masculinity". Almost like, only masculine traits can be toxic.... Hmm....

Oncefa2 · 2020-09-15T16:35:56+00:00

The second slide is about a concept known as labeling.

It's similar to how right wing politicians talk about crime among immigrants. People start to associate the two together.

The fact that we talk about toxic people and masculinity in the same breath makes people associate masculinity with toxicity.

I like to quote this source from an article published in The Palgrave handbook of male psychology and mental health.

There is a serious risk arising from using terms such as “toxic masculinity”. Unlike “male depression”, which helps identify a set of symptoms that can be alleviated with therapy, the term “toxic masculinity” has no clinical value. In fact it is an example of another cognitive distortion called labelling (Yurica et al. 2005). Negative labelling and terminology usually have a negative impact, including self-fulflling prophecies and alienation of the groups who are being labelled. We wouldn’t use the term “toxic” to describe any other human demographic. Such a term would be unthinkable with reference to age, disability, ethnicity or religion. The same principle of respect must surely apply to the male gender. It is likely therefore that developing a more realistic and positive narrative about masculinity in our culture will be a good thing for everyone.

https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007/978-3-030-04384-1_5

goldenjuniper · 2020-09-15T18:54:16+00:00

Simply call it harmful gender roles.

That's all it is and that encapsulates men and women.

Problem solved.

OversizedTrashPanda · 2020-09-15T18:59:34+00:00

In the past, I've made the comparison between the term "toxic masculinity" and other terms like "greedy jew" and "dirty mexican." Nobody would try to justify either of the latter two statements with "well, I was only talking about the greedy ones - that's why I added the adjective!" When you put a negative descriptor on a demographic, it comes across as a negative generalization, whether that's your stated intent or otherwise.

Of course, when I told this to an SJW former friend of mine, she said that the actual analogue to those slurs would be "toxic men" and it's invalid to compare them to "toxic masculinity." As if an attack on the defining characteristic of men is somehow different from an attack on the men themselves.

Threwaway42 · 2020-09-15T15:08:20+00:00

Wow those stats are damning. Also if any other term had literally that high of men and women disapproving it I feel like we would change it

LeftyLucario · 2020-09-15T16:37:50+00:00

Exactly, one of the worst ways to address someone is to even imply in the slightest “your ideas are wrong, so let me help you! I’ll save you from yourself.”

For lack of a better term, gentrifying masculinity will do nothing for the benefit of either men or women.

Leinadro · 2020-09-15T18:13:09+00:00

A few questions.

If the things that are labeled toxic masculinity are supposed to be behaviors and idea that harm men then why aren't they called sexism or internalized misandry?
If the goal is to help and support men then why go through the trouble of labeling the supposed bad parts of masculinity and having a million conversations about them instead of labeling the supposed good parts of masculinity and having a million conversations about those? How is it that the "focus on the positive rather than the negative" standard almost never applied to masculinity?
I know I'm not the first person to be told "When a woman tells a man something is sexist towards women he shouldn't argue he should just listen.". How is it that that doesn't work both ways? How is it that when a man tries to tell a woman something is sexist or ill fitting towards men the man is somehow STILL in the wrong.

omegaphallic · 2020-09-15T18:41:55+00:00

Toxic Masculinity it just an attempt to manipulate men by defining a huge part of their identity for them. I reject their attempts at manipulating, each man defines their own masculanity themselves, its a personal lifelong journey based on their own evolving values, but the woke want to control that the way they want to control everything.

Neveah_Hope_Dreams · 2020-09-15T20:52:07+00:00

Okay, these presentations are freaking wonderful! Fun to read, compelling, it hooks you in, great information and some further links. Well done! Really nice work!

This is great. Good reasoning. I'm going to use this to show people why this term is wrong.

And it's so freaking relieving to see that the majority view the term as an insult. That gives me hope!

Blutarg · 2020-09-15T22:41:15+00:00

What I think is, obviously the term is garbage, but whether or not most people believe so as well is immaterial.

LeftyLucario · 2020-09-28T20:39:03+00:00

Also, the term itself brings up “white man’s burden” vibes to me.

As if men are “half-devil half-child” where we’re both evil and stupid savages and it’s up to women to “civilize” us to save us from ourselves.

MILFBucket · 2020-09-17T20:50:27+00:00

Whatever happened to "hypermasculinity?" You know, implying masculinity is good in moderation... Does the job just right!

2020-10-22T00:40:07+00:00

I don't have to "explain my behavior" to anyone. Not to society, not to women, not others. If I'm misunderstood, it its not my problem. Until I get a knock on the door from authority, I don't have to explain anything.

2021-02-13T19:06:51+00:00

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SamaelET · 2021-02-13T19:34:02+00:00

I don't like the concept of "positive masculinity" either. It implys the existence of "negative masculinity" ans the need to change masculinity. Masculinity doesn't need to change. Society's misandry needs to.

thecontraryseagull · 2021-02-24T16:16:32+00:00

I prefer the term masculine toxicity, and I’m proud as fuck of it.

rustytherooster · 2021-02-22T23:11:57+00:00

Why are the majority of the male rapists and criminals from single mother households? Shouldn’t we call it toxic feminized masculinity?

misoginy · 2021-02-23T03:03:10+00:00

Even though I agree that the term should not be used, I have to point out that when you said that people agreed, you were using an ad populum fallacy

Title	'Toxic Masculinity' as a term, is toxic.
Author	TheTinMenBlog
Upvotes	246
Comments	49
Date	September 15, 2020 9:38 AM UTC (5 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates/comments/it5k0u/toxic_masculinity_as_a_term_is_toxic/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates/toxic-masculinity-as-a-term-is-toxic.1062818 https://theredarchive.com/post/1062818

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