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Why are people still blindly defending feminism in 2022? Hell, even some leftist colleagues of mine are starting to admit it promotes bias and invalidation against mens welfare in society

International-Pool29

March 8, 2022

127 upvotes

Seriously people, what is the matter? Just stop being a wuss and call it out, fuck I see more black people who are barely even politically active hold black lives matter accountable for damaging the current profile of black activism, I mean just at all the black celebrities against BLM, than I see leftists, even the most moderate of ones call out the predatory nature of feminism and is infiltration of left wing politics. Which proves most people's theory that feminism was never about equality, it was always a population control tactic to be imposed by the elites' and to pit the genders against eachother(I am sure the we can agree-to-disagree, right guys anyone want a Chick Fil A gift card lol) and to tax the middle class further into oblivion, looking at you Rockefeller
I guess though feminism is sorta what sells, well sorta, although even then I doubt calling it out well affect pop culture sells of any sort
I don't know why do you guys think feminism is still bootlicked in 2022?

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Title	Why are people still blindly defending feminism in 2022? Hell, even some leftist colleagues of mine are starting to admit it promotes bias and invalidation against mens welfare in society
Author	International-Pool29
Upvotes	127
Comments	63
Date	March 8, 2022 6:53 PM UTC (4 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates/comments/t9nymj/why_are_people_still_blindly_defending_feminism/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates/why-are-people-still-blindly-defending-feminism-in.1106104 https://theredarchive.com/post/1106104

Comments

[–]a-man-from-earthleft-wing male advocate[M] [score hidden] 4 years ago stickied comment (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]Skirt_Douglas 37 points38 points39 points 4 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]infinitofluxo 57 points58 points59 points 4 years ago (16 children) | Copy Link

As a leftist, I've been becoming increasingly against feminism and believing in egalitarianism. Not that I don't believe in differences between the genders/sexes, but because I believe people should have the choice to live as they please.

Feminism is increasingly denying men's rights and trying to hand women more power than regular men, as if they took any part of what the "patriarchy" truly mean, the people of power ruling the world. Feminism is increasingly putting women against men, making women worse partners and at least no better than man were or are. Feminism is trying to portray women as beautiful angels that are victimized by all men in their masculinity, denying the existence of criminal women, bad woman, mentally unstable women. Women are no different than men in these regards. We are all people doing the bad and the good.

[–]danbert2000 -51 points-50 points-49 points 4 years ago (15 children) | Copy Link

[–]sakura_drop 49 points50 points51 points 4 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

The extreme anti-men feminists are a minority.

Haven't wheeled this one out in a while:

So what you're saying is that you, a commenter using a username on an internet forum are the true feminist, and the feminists actually responsible for changing the laws, writing the academic theory, teaching the courses, influencing the public policies, and the massive, well-funded feminist organizations with thousands and thousands of members all of whom call themselves feminists... they are not "real feminists".

That's not just "no true Scotsman". That's delusional self deception.

Listen, if you want to call yourself a feminist, I don't care. I've been investigating feminism for more than 9 years now, and people like you used to piss me off, because to my mind all you were doing was providing cover and ballast for the powerful political and academic feminists you claim are just jerks. And believe me, they ARE jerks. If you knew half of what I know about the things they've done under the banner of feminism, maybe you'd stop calling yourself one.

But I want you to know. You don't matter. You're not the director of the Feminist Majority Foundation and editor of Ms. Magazine, Katherine Spillar, who said of domestic violence: "Well, that's just a clean-up word for wife-beating," and went on to add that regarding male victims of dating violence, "we know it's not girls beating up boys, it's boys beating up girls."

You're not Jan Reimer, former mayor of Edmonton and long-time head of Alberta's Network of Women's Shelters, who just a few years ago refused to appear on a TV program discussing male victims of domestic violence, because for her to even show up and discuss it would lend legitimacy to the idea that they exist.

You're not Mary P Koss, who describes male victims of female rapists in her academic papers as being not rape victims because they were "ambivalent about their sexual desires" (if you don't know what that means, it's that they actually wanted it), and then went on to define them out of the definition of rape in the CDC's research because it's inappropriate to consider what happened to them rape.

You're not the National Organization for Women, and its associated legal foundations, who lobbied to replace the gender neutral federal Family Violence Prevention and Services Act of 1984 with the obscenely gendered Violence Against Women Act of 1994. The passing of that law cut male victims out of support services and legal assistance in more than 60 passages, just because they were male.

You're not the Florida chapter of the NOW, who successfully lobbied to have Governor Rick Scott veto not one, but two alimony reform bills in the last ten years, bills that had passed both houses with overwhelming bipartisan support, and were supported by more than 70% of the electorate.

You're not the feminist group in Maryland who convinced every female member of the House on both sides of the aisle to walk off the floor when a shared parenting bill came up for a vote, meaning the quorum could not be met and the bill died then and there.

You're not the feminists in Canada agitating to remove sexual assault from the normal criminal courts, into quasi-criminal courts of equity where the burden of proof would be lowered, the defendant could be compelled to testify, discovery would go both ways, and defendants would not be entitled to a public defender.

You're not Professor Elizabeth Sheehy, who wrote a book advocating that women not only have the right to murder their husbands without fear of prosecution if they make a claim of abuse, but that they have the moral responsibility to murder their husbands.

You're not the feminist legal scholars and advocates who successfully changed rape laws such that a woman's history of making multiple false allegations of rape can be excluded from evidence at trial because it's "part of her sexual history."

You're not the feminists who splattered the media with the false claim that putting your penis in a passed-out woman's mouth is "not a crime" in Oklahoma, because the prosecutor was incompetent and charged the defendant under an inappropriate statute (forcible sodomy) and the higher court refused to expand the definition of that statute beyond its intended scope when there was already a perfectly good one (sexual battery) already there. You're not the idiot feminists lying to the public and potentially putting women in Oklahoma at risk by telling potential offenders there's a "legal" way to rape them.

And you're none of the hundreds or thousands of feminist scholars, writers, thinkers, researchers, teachers and philosophers who constructed and propagate the body of bunkum theories upon which all of these atrocities are based.

You're the true feminist. Some random person on the internet.

- Karen 'GirlWritesWhat' Straughan

tl;dr The "minority" are the ones calling the shots and the rest do basically nothing to call them out, challenge, or deplatform them.

[+]danbert2000 -23 points-22 points-21 points 4 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

[–]sakura_drop 28 points29 points30 points 4 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[+]danbert2000 -23 points-22 points-21 points 4 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]Fearless-File-3625 31 points32 points33 points 4 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]a-man-from-earthleft-wing male advocate 19 points20 points21 points 4 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]UnfurtletDawn 34 points35 points36 points 4 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[+]danbert2000 -13 points-12 points-11 points 4 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]UnfurtletDawn 22 points23 points24 points 4 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Absolutely a lot of feminists are good people. Plus these issues are interconnected. There are even studies that show a lot of male perpetrators were once victimised themselves. That of course doesn't mean that all victims will victimise other people.

But then you have some high lvl feminists which based on their views would fit more to be called femcels.

Like Marry P. Koss

In case you don't know she is leading expert on sexual violence and advisor for CDC and FBI..

Well her view on male rape victims that had female perpetrator.

Secretly they all want it. And if anything it should be regarded as "unwanted touching"

And even she did some good things like the CDC national survey. No one is entirely bad.

So yeah the issue often is that there are some high lvl nutjobs that will push things that the rest of the people go with.

[–]TheLWMA 23 points24 points25 points 4 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

The extreme anti-men feminists are a minority.

I'm really tired of this line of thinking.

If this was true, then how come the "majority" of pro-male feminists haven't done anything against the "minority" of anti-male feminists?

All the laws passed after first and second wave feminism are inclusive

Like the Duluth Model? It states that due to our "patriarchal society", men cannot truly be victims of domestic violence.

Those movements had a lot of men in them.

Like Warren Farrell? The only man to be elected three times to the Board of Directors of the National Organization for Women in N.Y.C. three times.

He left N.O.W because they were against joint custody and believed that women should be the ones who decided who gets the children.

He's basically considered the founder of the Men's Rights Movement.

We lose something when we ostracize men for supporting women as if that somehow precludes them from supporting men too.

We have no problem with men supporting women.

We do have a problem with achieving equality from a feminist perspective, however. Ideas such as "patriarchy" and "toxic masculinity" are deeply misandric.

[–]TheRabbitTunnel 16 points17 points18 points 4 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Textbook feminism is all about egalitarianism

Its not. Both men and women have their advantages and disadvantages. Feminism advocates to make women "equal" in any area that men are disadvantaged, but is perfectly happy with women staying advantaged in the areas that theyre currently advantaged. Thats not equality, its female superiority.

For feminism to be identical to equality, there would have to be no ways in which men are disadvantaged. As long as there are ways in which men are disadvantaged, its not logically possible for a womans only movement to be identical to equality.

We can take this a step further and say that feminism demands more rights and privileges for women even in areas that women are ahead. Women dominate the education system. Yet there are still more female-only scholarships and affirmative action only works in the favor of women, despite them being the majority. How the fuck is that equality?

Speaking of affirmative action, have you seen how one sided it is in regard to gender? Whether its education or the workforce, it only works in favor of women. Companies are required to have X amount of women, X amount of female board members, etc, but theres no requirement for men. So when men are a large majority, its a massive issue that needs govt regulation, but when women are a large majority, its fine? How the fuck is that equality.

I could go on and on but I don't want to write a wall of text. Feminism is absolutely not about equality.

It's just buying into a right wing smear campaign

"Everyone I don't like is a right wing trumper."

[–]Martijngamerleft-wing male advocate 10 points11 points12 points 4 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]a-man-from-earthleft-wing male advocate[M] 6 points7 points8 points 4 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]ImFeelingFatNSassy 4 points5 points6 points 4 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link

The extreme anti-men feminists are a minority.

Male negative feminism seems to be the default in the media. There must be quite a reasonable following for it, since it keeps getting published/broadcast.

If there were a large number of pro-male feminists, you'd hear from them much more, and they'd label or call out male-negative feminism.

Even the BBC is broadcasting this: https://archive.md/wHkyi

Several months later, the same show had another segment, where they invited two guests on who said violence against women was men's collective responsibility. The host did not challenge this.

They went on to argue that the government's gender neutral (i.e. Inclusive to men) domestic violence strategy needed to be replaced by a female centric one.

They argued for better education of young boys to prevent harassment and violence of women, viewing male children as predators in waiting.

If you complain, the BBC doesn't care. Apparently, saying "not all men" is a magic statement that absolves them from misandry, just like saying, "Some of my best friends are black" absolves you from racist statements. /s

[–]xhouliganx 25 points26 points27 points 4 years ago* (7 children) | Copy Link

[–]MelissaMiranti 23 points24 points25 points 4 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

[–]34T_y3r_v3ggi3s 16 points17 points18 points 4 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]MelissaMiranti 6 points7 points8 points 4 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]xhouliganx 9 points10 points11 points 4 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]MelissaMiranti 9 points10 points11 points 4 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]BabyYodasDirtyDiaper 1 point2 points3 points 4 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]danbert2000 -3 points-2 points-1 points 4 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]Ok-Ambassador3244 2 points3 points4 points 4 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]hottake_toothache 21 points22 points23 points 4 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]wavykamekun420 1 point2 points3 points 4 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]lightning_palmleft-wing male advocate 0 points1 point2 points 4 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]danbert2000 -20 points-19 points-18 points 4 years ago* (31 children) | Copy Link

Edit: The post was phrased as a question to people who won't denounce feminism and I answered. Everyone who downvotes this is contributing to an echo chamber. Try engaging rather than shunning? Especially since I'm answering the request!

I reject your framing. Every social movement and belief structure has a gamut of opinion. It's telling you point to black lives matter as if it's an objective negative when in fact it's led to the biggest increase in police accountability in decades.

Feminism as it is theoretically is about removing gender from the equation, not elevating women over men. That's what I believe in, and I can believe in it at the same time I believe that men are disadvantaged in some social and economic situations. To support men doesn't mean to reject feminism. I won't entertain the idea that feminism is bad because of some bad arguments and misandrist people just like I wouldn't universally call Islam bad because of Islamic terrorism, or assume all Christians are bigots even though a lot of bigots are Christian.

I'm all for holding feminists accountable when they actively discriminate against men because that's not what feminism is to me. But I've seen enough obviously sexist behavior against women to not give up on helping to get rid of gender discrimination against women too.

This black and white shit gives men's advocacy a bad name. Maybe try focusing on the positive solutions rather than making up some weak gender war. It's never a zero sum game.

[–]MelissaMiranti 34 points35 points36 points 4 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

It's interesting that you make the religion comparison for feminism. People call out various religions constantly for not practicing what they preach. It leads to some leaving religion behind altogether. That's all perfectly fine.

But what's happening here is a lot of men's advocates talking about the ways that feminism stymies any progress on men's issues and feminists actively demonize men's advocates. To use your religion comparison it's like Jews talking about how the Catholic church was an active force against their well being for centuries, or like how the Jewish faith in Israel is currently being weaponized against non-jewish people in Palestine.

Or to use another feminist talking point, but this time based on something other than sexism: we know it's not all feminists. But it's too many feminists.

[–]danbert2000 -9 points-8 points-7 points 4 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

[–]MelissaMiranti 26 points27 points28 points 4 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

The problem is that there are feminists who very much did do things to make things worse for men, and continue to do so. And I'm not framing the entirety of men's advocacy as anti-feminist, nor is the OP. I'm saying that there are massive obstacles to securing the changes that men need in this world, and feminist groups and individuals frequently put up those obstacles. How is a group for men supposed to not fight against that? Should men's advocates simply give up when feminist groups decide it is a zero-sum game? No, of course not.

Speaking of Title IX, there are feminist groups who are trying to change Title IX to not include protections for men anymore.

If feminist groups continue to make changes to society to damage men, men's advocates have no choice but to fight them. It's on you, as a feminist, to get your feminist friends to not put up those roadblocks at the very least.

[–]danbert2000 -6 points-5 points-4 points 4 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

There you go again, though, you're just saying there are "some feminists" doing this or that. But in the grand scheme of things what is actually standing in the way of men's rights? Laws passed by politicians, mostly men. Societal pressures and mores enforced by men and women. I have not once in my personal life encountered a situation where a feminist has made my life any worse. If you all have, then by all means advocate against that and for equality. I just can't shake the feeling that feminism, to a lot in this community, is the bogeyman they use to avoid talking about the real struggles men face due to the economy being rigged against us, due to child support payments standing in for a true child safety net, for situations where they feel rejected by women individually and decide it's a factor of a person's gender instead.

It's just a lot to take in as an actually progressive man, who sees that men are missing support and compassion in society. The OP posts on "purple pill" subs and pointed out he thinks black lives matter is racist. Is this sub more for anti-women than it is for pro-men and left politics? I feel like I'm the only one not blaming all my problems on feminists here.

[–]MelissaMiranti 25 points26 points27 points 4 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Laws passed by politicians, mostly men.

Not entirely laws, but are you aware of the power of lobbyists in most countries? Feminists have the most power when it comes to gender issues, and those issues are largely the same ones we need to change. Whether the politicians are men or women is immaterial, they get paid for or pressured by lobbyists.

I have not once in my personal life encountered a situation where a feminist has made my life any worse.

Then you must not have ever been the victim of domestic violence or rape, since feminist lobbying reduced the support men get or eliminated it entirely. You're lucky.

The OP posts on "purple pill" subs

That's a dialogue sub, not whatever you might think it is. People see colored pills and they jump to conclusions.

and pointed out he thinks black lives matter is racist.

No, he pointed out that in the post he's heard black people say they think it's giving them a bad image. If you found something else then you're going to need to quote it, because if you're getting that idea from this post you're very wrong. People of minority populations absolutely worry about what activist groups do in their name, and whether it will bring backlash.

Is this sub more for anti-women than it is for pro-men and left politics?

No. But so many people have equated feminism with women that they erroneously think that whenever feminist groups, individuals, or rhetoric gets criticized. Feminism is not women. Feminism is an ideology. Women are people.

I feel like I'm the only one not blaming all my problems on feminists here.

You're not the only one. One of the points in the OP is how feminism is a tool co-opted by the rich to beat down the rest of us. The rich are the bigger problem, even in this post.

[–]a-man-from-earthleft-wing male advocate[M] 17 points18 points19 points 4 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]Tedfordshire 8 points9 points10 points 4 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]LettuceBeGrateful 26 points27 points28 points 4 years ago* (2 children) | Copy Link

Feminism as it is theoretically is about removing gender from the equation

Naming every negative behavior and concept after the male gender is a funny way to achieve this.

Maybe try focusing on the positive solutions rather than making up some weak gender war.

Feminism has successfully defeated laws recognizing male rape victims in multiple countries. It codified a DV framework that has resulted in male abuse victims being arrested more than their abusers. It labelled men who were denied due process and expelled from college as "rapists" who are bullying victims. It defeated wildly popular family court reform. It shuts down events about male abuse and suicide victims, fights against men's centers on college campuses, and even got the Cassie Jaye documentary removed from theaters.

Minimizing the harm that feminism has done to men as a "weak gender war" is like telling BLM that they should just stop obsessing over the color of everyone's skin. The complaints against feminism are valid and relevant when discussing men's issues.

Edit: And given that feminists have opposed men's rights largely on the grounds that rights are a zero sum game, you should probably deliver your message to feminists, not us.

[–]luciolover11[🍰] 14 points15 points16 points 4 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]LettuceBeGrateful 7 points8 points9 points 4 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]eljay4k 15 points16 points17 points 4 years ago (8 children) | Copy Link

It seems like your primary issue is that you're using the textbook definition of feminism (and your personal understanding of the word) to define what feminism is in practice and what the true powerholders in the movement advocate for.

BLM is a perfect parallel for this. While almost all black people will agree that we don't want to be killed by the police, the actual leadership of BLM has shown us that that is NOT their actual objective. For all the signal boosting they've done on the issue of police brutality, they've built zero schools, institutions, shelters or anything else tangible to actually benefit the black community. All this despite being in existence for over 7 years and having recieved millions and millions of dollars in funding.

I'm sure there are some true egalitarians that label themselves feminists, just how there are (were?) truly pro-black activists in BLM. But much like Camille Paglia and Christina Hoff Sommers denounced modern feminism, many of these activists denounced the movement when they weren't paid and discovered that the actions of the BLM organization don't match with their words.

There's been countless think pieces from women of all stripes who feel like modern feminism does NOT represent them or what's best for women just like I, along with a very large group of my people don't feel like BLM has our best interest at heart.

[–]danbert2000 -4 points-3 points-2 points 4 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link

[–]eljay4k 15 points16 points17 points 4 years ago* (3 children) | Copy Link

Most feminists I know

You're using anecdotal evidence from your personal experience to argue against the collective facts of the situation. That's equivalent to saying that Israel as a country doesn't oppress Palestinians just because the 0.000000013% of Israeli nationals that you know don't.

While I won't argue that talking TV heads are entirely representative of the population, that's literally what you're doing by using your statistically insignificant sample size of feminist friends to say that the power brokers of feminism haven't shown a consistent history of misandry.

That's pretty disingenuous to point out a fallacy and commit same said fallacy in the same paragraph.

I just don't see feminism as incompatible with men's advocacy because the feminists I know have advanced degrees and house husbands and don't really focus on the negative emotionality that society brings to gender relations.

You then go on to commit the same fallacy...again. It doesn't matter what you see, what matters is what's factually occurring. And factually, Feminism, through its many powerful and politically well-connected advocates, authors, professors and pundits has consistently shown that it's goals (as an ideology and a movement) are far from egalitarian.

[+]danbert2000 -7 points-6 points-5 points 4 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

It seems more fallacious to put my trust in a group of people that are adamant that feminism is something that I haven't seen. I won't pretend my experience is representative but at the same time I won't form opinions about all feminists because strangers on the internet are sure they're all man hating bigots. I just haven't seen that and won't change my view of the situation based on cherry picked "feminists from hell" stories. Moreso I don't want to give up on improving the lives of men solely because I also care about women's rights too. I actually think there's a long history of men and women working together to break down gender roles and improve access to opportunities for everyone. I don't see any of that drive here and I think it shrinks the appeal and the potential to address men's issues. There are some real issues coming down the river for men. Falling behind on higher education. Increased depression and loneliness. Disaffection and radicalization of young men by alt right and Qanon groups. And none of it has to do with feminists unless you contort the issues to match your pet villains.

[–]eljay4k 10 points11 points12 points 4 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link

Even though I'm 99% sure you're just sealioning at this point, I'll entertain this a little longer.

It's funny you mention cherry-picking when you literally had to cherry-pick through history if you can't see how often feminism is blatantly misandric and will 100% attack women that don't agree with the ideology, even when said women were feminist icons.

When Erin Pizzey (Woman who more or less invented the concept of womens shelters) wanted to build men's shelters, she was ostracized, ridiculed and sent death threats... by feminists. To quote her:

“[feminism was] a lie.... women and men are both capable of extraordinary cruelty … We must stop demonising men and start healing the rift that feminism has created between men and women.”

On feminism:

"We just all—my little group—just looked at each other and thought, Fuck this.”

Valerie Solanas (infamous radfem that shot Andy Warhol) and her SCUM Manifesto are still being recommended by some feminist publications. This is a book that literally calls for male babies to be slaughtered wholesale.

When Cassie Jaye (ex-feminist who made the Red Pill documentary) wanted to premiere her documentary that discusses the issues that men face today, she was boycotted and excommunicated by guess who. (Feminists).

You really don't have to listen to any strangers on the internet. You just have to open your eyes. Feminists with truly egalitarian beliefs have historically been ridiculed and ostracized by other feminists. It's been over 100 years and black women STILL feel excluded from feminism. It's obvious that feminism may be campaigning for a very small group of elite, largely white women, but has no positive agenda for the rest of us, man or woman.

[–]a-man-from-earthleft-wing male advocate 7 points8 points9 points 4 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]Consistent_Leek_1825 2 points3 points4 points 4 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[–]danbert2000 0 points1 point2 points 4 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]Consistent_Leek_1825 0 points1 point2 points 4 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]funnystor 4 points5 points6 points 4 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]ImFeelingFatNSassy 2 points3 points4 points 4 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link

Feminism as it is theoretically is about removing gender from the equation, not elevating women over men.

In practice, it's claiming gender equality as a goal, to act as a shield from what feminists actually do: promote the idea that women in general are victims and men are privileged/complicit/abusers.

They seek out any issue that has a disparity between male and female victims (e.g. Violence). Instead of trying to tackle the problem, they use it as a political tool.

All other explanations for the problem are ignored (women being smaller in stature and hence being more vulnerable to violence). Instead, the cause must be a patriarchal society, or a cultural/moral rot amongst men as a group.

The issue is turned into a women's issue by default. Men are excluded from the discussion. If you bring up men, they are victim blamed (men mostly face violence from other men [because men suck]!").

Men are told they're to blame for the problem, and/or responsible for fixing it.

Imagine if we did the same for things like mental health.

75% of suicides are men, so from now on, all discussion about mental health in society has to revolve purely around men. Instead of looking at the real causes, we'll just assume that it's due to a matriarchal society that hates men. Women are collectively responsible and need to support men more.

Or even with height. I'd assume that men/people under 5'10" face more violence and harassment on average than men over 5'10".

This is obviously because we live in a heightist society. Tall people obviously are morally inferior to smaller/average sized people, and they need to take responsibility for the harm they cause.

We need to teach taller children not to be abusers.

That would be 🤮 obviously.

[+]Consistent_Leek_1825 -6 points-5 points-4 points 4 years ago (9 children) | Copy Link

Thanks for calling out the echo chamber, though I think that's an in-built consequence of Reddit and of most social media, regardless of the issue in question.

For me, feminism is a mixed bag. It's clearly struggling to stride a gap - taking beloved old concepts and vocabulary that were first developed for pushing women's equality (and which are undoubtably still useful in parts of the world) and trying to make them relevant and useful in tackling men's issues, instead of throwing them out and reworking from scratch, with men also centred in the discussion. Its current image problem makes that even harder.

I think you're right that those forces that frame it as primarily anti-men, and male advocacy as primarily anti-feminist, are ultimately counterproductive to improving things for men.

I have tended to prefer this sub to certain others because there is less of an obvious obsession with talking about feminism.

[–]Fearless-File-3625 20 points21 points22 points 4 years ago* (8 children) | Copy Link

[–]Consistent_Leek_1825 0 points1 point2 points 4 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link

[–]Fearless-File-3625 13 points14 points15 points 4 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

Criticism is for the people who listen and improve, feminists do neither. NOW has been criticised for decades about their anti father stance, still they won't change and oppose equal custody. Feminists in general have been criticised for their anti men vocabulary and historic revisionism, all they have done is double down on it.

I can understand if there are 15 feminists orgs and only 5 are for male issues, but reality is that there are 1000s of feminists orgs all over the world and the one with the least political influence and reach will sit on 30th February to discuss men's issues.

You claim about how feminism is struggling to stride gap between their old theories and men's issues yet I doubt that they even recognise men's issues. Perhaps you can help by providing some examples of feminists organisations recognising men's issues ?

[–]Consistent_Leek_1825 -1 points0 points1 point 4 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

Perhaps you can help by providing some examples of feminists organisations recognising men's issues ?

These have been talked about many times here.

One area where feminists may be helping men is in pushing for better paternity leave. Even here, though, we typically see a rationale that centres women - better for their careers and to reduce the lifetime earnings gap.

As I stated, feminist approaches to men's issues usually fail to centre men, and their concepts and vocabulary (eg. patriarchy, toxic masculinity) are particularly alienating because they "other" men.

Despite having formal definitions that seem to focus on systems, not individuals, both of these concepts end up being used primarily to blame individual men, call for individualised responses from them, and draw attention away from systemic solutions. eg. Men seek health care less often than women and seem to be less comfortable visiting their GPs. Could it be that men, unlike women, do not receive multiple mandatory screenings throughout their lives? Could it be that men need tailored approaches, eg. in workplaces? No, it's because of TM. It's because the patriarchy sees women as weak.

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