How do you counter this?

Qantourisc · 2022-10-13T17:24:08+00:00

"I am happy to hear that. But legally it is still wrong, and it would feel validating to have this officially recognized and changed in the law, instead of this sword of Damocles above peoples head."

Angryasfk · 2022-10-13T18:09:13+00:00

I’d also suggest that you be careful, as others have suggested. Feminist teachers are not normally known for their tolerance. Some are, but there’s no guarantee that these ones won’t take it out on you if you question their beliefs.

OliveGS · 2022-10-13T17:23:50+00:00

You're fighting a losing argument, kid.

CawlinAlcarz · 2022-10-13T18:08:48+00:00

Listen, my dude, you're 14. These teachers are gatekeepers to your future. It's good that you're aware of the hypocrisy going on around you right now, but at your age, in your position, no good can come of you rocking the boat. These women can derail your entire educational goals at this point.

I HIGHLY recommend that you just figure out whatever claptrap nonsense BS they want you to spout back at them in order to get the grades you need. They will NOT give you those grades unless you agree with their position on this matter, and there won't be a damn thing you can do about it.

I hate telling you that, but sometimes facts are just facts. I'm telling you this with genuine compassion and love and hope that you take my advice. You don't have to love it, but you do have to live with it - for now. Keep your head low, regurgitate whatever it is they want you to regurgitate, and get through this with the best possible grades you can get and no administrative hiccups along the way. Be advised that these women are looking to derail you already.

Do what they ask, say what they tell you to say, and keep your real thoughts about this to yourself for now... just for now... later, when you are not subject to the whims of vindictive bitches who are empowered by a corrupt educational system, you can feel free to speak your mind. Until then, you have to get through this phase of your life as smoothly as possible.

If, after all of that heartfelt, and well meaning advice, you still insist on arguing with them, you can show them this from Karen Straughan, and then I advise you to walk away and never broach the topic again:

The following is a very informed comment by Karen Straughan in response to a feminist who thinks the many blatant sexists among feminists aren't real feminists:

So what you're saying is that you, a commenter using a username on an internet forum are the true feminist, and the feminists actually responsible for changing the laws, writing the academic theory, teaching the courses, influencing the public policies, and the massive, well-funded feminist organizations with thousands and thousands of members all of whom call themselves feminists... they are not "real feminists".

That's not just "no true Scotsman". That's delusional self deception.

Listen, if you want to call yourself a feminist, I don't care. I've been investigating feminism for more than 9 years now, and people like you used to piss me off, because to my mind all you were doing was providing cover and ballast for the powerful political and academic feminists you claim are just jerks. And believe me, they ARE jerks. If you knew half of what I know about the things they've done under the banner of feminism, maybe you'd stop calling yourself one.

But I want you to know. You don't matter.

You're not the director of the Feminist Majority Foundation and editor of Ms. Magazine, Katherine Spillar, who said of domestic violence: "Well, that's just a clean-up word for wife-beating," and went on to add that regarding male victims of dating violence, "we know it's not girls beating up boys, it's boys beating up girls."

You're not Jan Reimer, former mayor of Edmonton and long-time head of Alberta's Network of Women's Shelters, who just a few years ago refused to appear on a TV program discussing male victims of domestic violence, because for her to even show up and discuss it would lend legitimacy to the idea that they exist.

You're not Mary P Koss, who describes male victims of female rapists in her academic papers as being not rape victims because they were "ambivalent about their sexual desires" (if you don't know what that means, it's that they actually wanted it), and then went on to define them out of the definition of rape in the CDC's research because it's inappropriate to consider what happened to them rape.

You're not the National Organization for Women, and its associated legal foundations, who lobbied to replace the gender neutral federal Family Violence Prevention and Services Act of 1984 with the obscenely gendered Violence Against Women Act of 1994. The passing of that law cut male victims out of support services and legal assistance in more than 60 passages, just because they were male.

You're not the Florida chapter of the NOW, who successfully lobbied to have Governor Rick Scott veto not one, but two alimony reform bills in the last ten years, bills that had passed both houses with overwhelming bipartisan support, and were supported by more than 70% of the electorate.

You're not the feminist group in Maryland who convinced every female member of the House on both sides of the aisle to walk off the floor when a shared parenting bill came up for a vote, meaning the quorum could not be met and the bill died then and there.
You're not the feminists in Canada agitating to remove sexual assault from the normal criminal courts, into quasi-criminal courts of equity where the burden of proof would be lowered, the defendant could be compelled to testify, discovery would go both ways, and defendants would not be entitled to a public defender.

You're not Professor Elizabeth Sheehy, who wrote a book advocating that women not only have the right to murder their husbands without fear of prosecution if they make a claim of abuse, but that they have the moral responsibility to murder their husbands.
You're not the feminist legal scholars and advocates who successfully changed rape laws such that a woman's history of making multiple false allegations of rape can be excluded from evidence at trial because it's "part of her sexual history."

You're not the feminists who splattered the media with the false claim that putting your penis in a passed-out woman's mouth is "not a crime" in Oklahoma, because the prosecutor was incompetent and charged the defendant under an inappropriate statute (forcible sodomy) and the higher court refused to expand the definition of that statute beyond its intended scope when there was already a perfectly good one (sexual battery) already there. You're not the idiot feminists lying to the public and potentially putting women in Oklahoma at risk by telling potential offenders there's a "legal" way to rape them.

And you're none of the hundreds or thousands of feminist scholars, writers, thinkers, researchers, teachers and philosophers who constructed and propagate the body of bunkum theories upon which all of these atrocities are based.

You're the true feminist. Some random person on the internet.

Basketballjuice · 2022-10-13T21:44:49+00:00

I understand that you're Greek. I'm American, so I'm explaining this from an American lens. I feel this will still be good advice for you, just check and see what the specific discrimination laws are where you live, and what procedures happen when one is breached. And hey - there is still the chance that you're wrong, in which case you should own up to it. Being wrong is part of life and I don't know why it's so stigmatized nowadays.

With that out of the way:

America is a nation set by legal precedent. When a law fails to convict someone, that's not the fault of the law not being there, it's the fault of investigators and plaintiffs for failing to prove that it's happening.

Take the wage gap, for example. Paying someone less based on underlying factors such as gender, race, sexuality, etc. is illegal under the Equal Pay Act of 1963.

Are there companies that still pay people less based on these factors? I'm sure that they exist but I can't recall any specifics. Probably Activision Blizzard.

If one of these people were to sue their employer, citing discrimination and specifically invoking the Equal Pay Act of 1963, any sane judge and jury would hold that employer accountable.

Now - there are a lot of connotations to suing your boss - so if you fail you're pretty much boned. There are plenty of factors as to why someone wouldn't want to sue someone or get them brought up on charges, but that does NOT mean that discrimination isn't illegal.

And there is no way that every cop, every lawyer, every judge in the nation is working together to shit on a particular group.

TL:DR: even if it wasn't enforced, that's not the fault of the nation it's the fault of the police, lawyers, judges, etc.

Ok-Translator2294 · 2022-10-13T17:27:04+00:00

No point arguing with feminists, especially when they are teachers. Just keep out of their radar or they might mess up your grades out of spite.

jcoope91 · 2022-10-14T02:05:21+00:00

They are in fight/flight mode, so meet them at their level. And this is true for everyone, not just activist feminists. Treat them like the children that they are (since they are childishly latching onto an identity of victimhood unconditionally).

Be respectful, like you would to children. Acknowledge what they believe by repeating back to them a summary of their argument. They may correct you. And so continue to be respectful. If they hear their own ideas reverberated back to them, they relax and may come out of their fight/flight mode. They cannot listen to reason while they are in fight/flight mode.

After they come out of fight/flight mode, put their principles in perspective by installing them in a separate situation. For example: “And so you want to create equality in the world by trying to bring down men? Explain how that is fair?” “You argue that men in higher-up positions are sexist against you. Why do you assume I am sexist because I am a man? Explain to me how you are NOT sexist for making that assumption.”

While they are out of fight/flight mode, listening to their own logic in situations that don’t flatter them, they will definitely have something to think about. You may not see changes immediately, but behind-the-scenes it’ll open them up to other dialogues.

skllyskullstyle · 2022-10-14T01:54:51+00:00

Im sorry little dude. I understand your frustration but im afraid that you cant do anything here. They are just going to talk about this situation in their echo chambers and say its patriarchy and play dumb.

I would just stick to all anti-feminist big boys and when you are old enough you can join them help fight.

Lalulale · 2022-10-13T17:25:21+00:00

In most western countries the majority of voters are female. So women decide who rules and what policies are important.

UnfurtletDawn · 2022-10-13T19:57:16+00:00

You need to give specifics. What laws for example.

And simple put if the law isn't enforced and abided by. Why have laws in the first place?

Danonix13 · 2022-10-13T21:35:17+00:00

I had phase to change the world too, you will grow out of it because to actually do something you need to majority.

TracyMorganFreeman · 2022-10-14T00:03:40+00:00

Just point to how the law isn't enforced and abided by, i.e. the bias in enforcement favors women, from conviction rates to sentencing for the same crime to hiring shortlists for underrepresented groups to child custody.

Alternatively, feminists often point to laws on the books that haven't been enforced for decades if not centuries such as marital rape, but feminist still cite their existence on the books as proof of sexism against women.

Cbd_7ohm · 2022-10-14T00:12:12+00:00

Idk what the law has to do with the debate. Elaborate. Given what you typed here I would have been giving numbers on suicide deaths, rates of homelessness, thing like circumcision, jail time for the crime etc. If she would have told me something about laws, it wouldn't even make sense. Women are not oppressed more than men in the west. The most they have to deal with is abortion rights and usually some other weird medical manipulation(but so do men especially with the US/AUSTRALIA/CANADA/MIDDLE EAST/PARTS OF AFRICA/SOUTH KOREA(ALSO NK LOL)). Men got the right to vote because of the draft while women sit around expecting something for nothing(the ethics of the draft are another debate). I could go on.

heeroena · 2022-10-14T00:49:24+00:00

can they prove what they claim? As far is known men get punished harder for the same crimes that women commit. It is correct that the law isn't always enforced but it is to the benefit of women

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sentencing_disparity

The_Dapper_Balrog · 2022-10-14T01:01:15+00:00

The laws that protect discrimination by sex aren't really enforced...

At least, when it comes to men being discriminated against. Why don't you ask for specific examples of legislation being bypassed for women on a systemic level? Then point out to them the sentencing gap, the rigged family court systems, the lack of enforcement of laws against female-on-male rape (Greek law technically allows for criminalization of "forced to penetrate" rape, but how often is that enforced?), the requirement of military conscription for men and not for women, the use of the Duluth model by law enforcement despite gender neutral DV/IPV legislation (in the US and other countries; I don't know for Greece), a lack of "bodily autonomy/reproductive rights" for men, and so on.

kiadragon · 2022-10-14T01:30:36+00:00

Stop. Teachers will find ways to frak your school career if you make an uncomfortable point.

But if you WANT educational suicide, tell them that you require proof that the law is not enforced and abided by beyond anecdotes.

You will still lose. But it will sting them.

shit-zen-giggles · 2022-10-14T06:25:39+00:00

On a more general / strategic note: You could ask them which evidence of which circumstance would convince them that 'feminism is not a movement for equality'.

This will probably give them pause, because now they have to define a 'cut off' point.

SlavNotDead · 2022-10-14T08:15:55+00:00

This is not a debate.

When one presents a factual statement (concrete examples in law), the opponent can not simply dismiss it if he argues in good faith. The only valid dismissal in this case would be a concrete evidence supporting their counter claim. Simply saying "it does not happen" ("nobody follows the law" in your case) is not a debate, it is a playground-level "nah-huh, not so!" As you can imagine, this makes their point worthless at best, and just plain counterproductive.

Not only do they lack any evidence to support their ridiculous claim, I am willing to bet there are plenty of evidence to the contrary, considering the fun little fact that laws tend to get enforced and the record of it is usually fairly accessible to the public.

AskingToFeminists · 2022-10-14T09:37:07+00:00

Many have pointed out that it might be unwise to argue with your teachers. It may be true. It might be that once you've developed a habit of caving under pressure, it becomes hard to lose it. I'm not in your place, I can't make decisions for you.

What I can try is to arm you better should you choose to argue.

This is nearly an infalsifiable claim, basically. It's called moving the goalposts. A bit like god being described as an forever reducing pocket of ignorance. "god is what causes thunder" well no it isn't "OK, but god is what moves the clouds" well, no it isn't. "OK, but then god is what moves the planets" well, no it isn't "OK, but then god is what created the universe" well, this one I can't prove is wrong (at least yet) "ha, so god is real!". Basically, it's someone who holds a position, but alters slightly that position every time they're proven wrong rather than acknowledging it and updating their belief.

It can be useful to actually point that out. It's a dishonest debate tactic, and it makes for unpleasant conversations. You may tell them directly "you're moving the goalposts. Can you at least acknowledge that you were wrong on that point before we move on to another one?"

Those that put forward a claim have to demonstrate it.

You asserted the existence of laws that target men and women differently. You demonstrated it.

They assert those laws aren't enforced. It's their job to provide evidence that it is the case. And proving a negative is really hard.

Alternatively, you could look to a single case of those laws being enforced to demonstrate that, logically speaking, they are wrong. Although, that's probably not what is being argued (the laws are never enforced VS, on aggregate, the laws are rarely enforced)

But before delving into that point, you have to discuss with them exactly what would any of that prove. If it turned out to be true that the law wasn't enforced, so what? If it turned out if was, so what?

"if it turns out that those laws are actually enforced, would that change your minds?"

If the answer is no, then you're all discussing the wrong point. And the better question might be "what would change your mind, then?"

Moving of the goalposts if often a sign that you're having the wrong conversation.

If them being proven wrong just make them jump to something else, then that point was irrelevant, and all you did was waste your time.

I would advise you to take a look at things like street epistemology. The idea is to have productive conversations on topics that are dear to the people involved. It involves a few things that may look simple but are, in practice, very hard to master. It might be easier when you're younger and less set in your habits. Basically : it's asking the question "why do you believe that?, how did you conclude it was true?" and is that a reliable method to reach conclusions?"

The trick is to be respectful, to be friendly, to be genuinely inquiring about those things, and to resist the urge to argue. You're in it with them, not against them. Repeat what you hear them say, until they agree with you that it's what they say. You want to understand their point, not burn a strawman, and people like to feel listened.

When done to a high level of practice, it can look like this

mikesteane · 2022-10-14T09:50:11+00:00

Use this as a learning opportunity. Plan your strategies and see how to use different approaches. My recommendation would be to try a Socratic line. Ask many questions as if you regard them as wise elders and don't argue, just keep gathering data. When they have said way more than a wise person would do, simply gather the contradictions and ask how they are resolved. Never state anything, just keep asking questions. Phrase all statements as questions (the police use this as a tactic quite frequently.)

MrStone1 · 2022-10-14T11:09:14+00:00

It's nonsense, Nod in appreciation of them bestowing their knowledge on you and then allow these women to have as little impact on your education and state of mind as possible.

Don't waste your time trying to argue with them, It's pointless.

Fast-Mongoose-4989 · 2022-10-14T18:40:23+00:00

Ask em what are they doing about the male only draft and mandatory military services for men in boys in multiple countries our the predominantly male child labor in multiple countries that are getting little boys killed.

Ask I'm ehat feminist are doing about male suicide and all the suicide prevention money going only to women suicide prevention. Ask I. What feminist are doing about the disparity between mental heath resources which faver women and disadvantage men in multiple countries .

And when the say that those are mens problems to solve not feminist that's when you point out that feminist arnt about gender equality because they would be fighting the ways men and boys are disadvantage to not just the way women are disadvantage.

CellMajor · 2022-10-15T18:07:10+00:00

I am glad you realized the dark side of feminism but you have to stop arguing with people about the hypocrisy of feminism.

I strongly recommend that you go to school tomorrow and apologize to the teachers. Say they are right.

You are doing no one favors by arguing feminism. You should instead be grateful and use your knowledge as a weapon.

I repeat again. DON'T ARGUE WITH ANYONE!! It will isolate you further and will frustrate you even more. Hope you heed this advice and remember you are awesome!

Cultural_Ad_7107 · 2022-10-18T07:18:25+00:00

Man you are still a kid and fighting for what's right! Go you!

alclarkey · 2022-10-13T21:29:46+00:00

The answer is: that's bullshit. The law is enforced when they want to get rid of somebody but they don't have anything legitimate to fire/arrest them over.

saito200 · 2022-10-13T20:54:01+00:00

Well. The answer is that even if the law is not enforced, it is still unequal. So, it's not something that can fit in a well functioning society

_Denzo · 2022-10-13T19:28:10+00:00

Feminism is a movement for equality, if you don’t believe in equal rights you aren’t a feminist these women aren’t feminists lol, it’s not just the law that’s discriminatory it’s the stereotypes look at depp v heard, he was proven innocent but is still portrayed as the abuser for being a man

JoeSmith1907 · 2022-10-13T17:43:17+00:00

The thing to remember when you deal with feminists is to maintain "frame." Don't let them go off on a tangent and don't show weakness. In the example you gave they're not really addressing your point. So you can say that if they're saying that the laws are there but people aren't following them, they're really saying the feminism has been successful and what they're really talking about is an enforcement problem. If the women can sue or have a remedy, then the laws can be enforced. If the women don't sue or don't file a complaint, then you don't really know that the laws are being violated.

You can also ask them aren't they being the same as a man doing the same job with the same experience? Don't they have the same rights to government benefits? The idea is to use closed end questions (questions that call for yes or no answers) that you know the answer to.

If you ask them how do they know the law isn't being enforced, they'll bring up anecdotes and personal experiences that would sidetrack the discussion onto their frame. If they do that keep on even keel and if they give an anecdote just nod and say something like "okay, that's one case," and maybe suggest that there might be more to it than what they heard. They probably won't listen to you since you're 14, but they certainly won't listen to you if they get emotionally involved in maintaining their position.

The other point is to realize that you'll have problems getting anywhere with a hardcore feminist. The person you want to target your response to is the one on the fence who might be listening in.

Ok-Magician-3426 · 2022-10-13T17:51:21+00:00

Ask them if they enjoy not being able to get a bf that will protect them bc all they want is weak men

Angryasfk · 2022-10-13T18:07:27+00:00

Well an obvious one would be to counter if they’d think it was ok for sodomy to remain a crime in the law even if it wasn’t enforced? Or obtaining an abortion without medical reasons to be illegal even if it wasn’t enforced (doctors here used to use “financial health” or “mental health” as justifications for abortion, and the law was never enforced, until one woman kept her aborted foetus in the fridge apparently waiting to take it back to New Zealand for some Māori naming/funerary ceremony, and her daughter told her friends at school she had a baby sister in the fridge, and someone called the cops)?

I somehow don’t think they’d think it’s ok for this to be around. The other one is to see if these laws really are not enforced. I wouldn’t bet on it.

Aspiengineer · 2022-10-13T18:36:35+00:00

+1 for "choose your battle".

No matter how good you grades are, they can and probably will get back at you. If you can actually proove them wrong, it will be even worse. Trust me, with 14, you have no idea how petty and cruel people can be, and how rules, logic and decency can be ignored when you have the right people on your side.

MagnumJim · 2022-10-14T01:20:24+00:00

Just respond with "well if the laws don't have to be followed why don't women just not follow the laws that keep them down"?

Either men are smarter and figured a way around the system or their argument is invalid.

Men = 1 Women = 0.7 (according to them)

martinbv95 · 2022-10-13T20:03:05+00:00

The Women's movement isn't about Equality of both sexes, but of the liberation of women. The teachers get mad, because historically and today men has ruled and created the world. Men's rights, which is the name of the group, isn't really needed, as a [white, Cis-gendered, straight] man already has all the rights. The women dosen't want to live in a world created by men, for men. They want to live in a world for women created by women. Equality is the likely outcome, but, a wise man said leave it to rest, let the women be, and you shall see that all will be well,-)

Title	How do you counter this?
Author	WildGrave2
Upvotes	94
Comments	70
Date	October 13, 2022 5:20 PM UTC (3 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/y34ce2/how_do_you_counter_this/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/how-do-you-counter-this.1135794 https://theredarchive.com/post/1135794

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