How do u debunk the feminism dictionary definition argument?

Ok-Translator2294 · 2022-11-30T22:02:59+00:00

Funny how they insist that we must view feminism according to its dictionary definition, but incels are just whoever they dislike.

No_Conflict9034 · 2022-11-30T22:37:30+00:00

(Playing devils advocate) I have a question for u all. When some claim they’re not racist. But go off an kill people of specific race. What should we look at? What they claim to be/not to be. Or their actions? Similarly with feminism when some one doesn’t fight for equality and is anti male and claims to be a feminist. We look at their actions not what they claim to be.

CawlinAlcarz · 2022-11-30T22:10:30+00:00

The following is a very informed and highly reusable comment by Karen Straughan in response to a feminist who thinks the many blatant sexists among feminists aren't real feminists. These arguments can also be used to show that ACTUAL feminism is not following the dictionary definition of equality:

So what you're saying is that you, a commenter using a username on an internet forum are the true feminist, and the feminists actually responsible for changing the laws, writing the academic theory, teaching the courses, influencing the public policies, and the massive, well-funded feminist organizations with thousands and thousands of members all of whom call themselves feminists... they are not "real feminists".

That's not just "no true Scotsman". That's delusional self deception. Listen, if you want to call yourself a feminist, I don't care. I've been investigating feminism for more than 9 years now, and people like you used to piss me off, because to my mind all you were doing was providing cover and ballast for the powerful political and academic feminists you claim are just jerks. And believe me, they ARE jerks. If you knew half of what I know about the things they've done under the banner of feminism, maybe you'd stop calling yourself one. But I want you to know. You don't matter.

You're not the director of the Feminist Majority Foundation and editor of Ms. Magazine, Katherine Spillar, who said of domestic violence: "Well, that's just a clean-up word for wife-beating," and went on to add that regarding male victims of dating violence, "we know it's not girls beating up boys, it's boys beating up girls."

You're not Jan Reimer, former mayor of Edmonton and long-time head of Alberta's Network of Women's Shelters, who just a few years ago refused to appear on a TV program discussing male victims of domestic violence, because for her to even show up and discuss it would lend legitimacy to the idea that they exist.

You're not Mary P Koss, who describes male victims of female rapists in her academic papers as being not rape victims because they were "ambivalent about their sexual desires" (if you don't know what that means, it's that they actually wanted it), and then went on to define them out of the definition of rape in the CDC's research because it's inappropriate to consider what happened to them rape. You're not the National Organization for Women, and its associated legal foundations, who lobbied to replace the gender neutral federal Family Violence Prevention and Services Act of 1984 with the obscenely gendered Violence Against Women Act of 1994. The passing of that law cut male victims out of support services and legal assistance in more than 60 passages, just because they were male. You're not the Florida chapter of the NOW, who successfully lobbied to have Governor Rick Scott veto not one, but two alimony reform bills in the last ten years, bills that had passed both houses with overwhelming bipartisan support, and were supported by more than 70% of the electorate.

You're not the feminist group in Maryland who convinced every female member of the House on both sides of the aisle to walk off the floor when a shared parenting bill came up for a vote, meaning the quorum could not be met and the bill died then and there.

You're not the feminists in Canada agitating to remove sexual assault from the normal criminal courts, into quasi-criminal courts of equity where the burden of proof would be lowered, the defendant could be compelled to testify, discovery would go both ways, and defendants would not be entitled to a public defender.

You're not Professor Elizabeth Sheehy, who wrote a book advocating that women not only have the right to murder their husbands without fear of prosecution if they make a claim of abuse, but that they have the moral responsibility to murder their husbands. You're not the feminist legal scholars and advocates who successfully changed rape laws such that a woman's history of making multiple false allegations of rape can be excluded from evidence at trial because it's "part of her sexual history."

You're not the feminists who splattered the media with the false claim that putting your penis in a passed-out woman's mouth is "not a crime" in Oklahoma, because the prosecutor was incompetent and charged the defendant under an inappropriate statute (forcible sodomy) and the higher court refused to expand the definition of that statute beyond its intended scope when there was already a perfectly good one (sexual battery) already there. You're not the idiot feminists lying to the public and potentially putting women in Oklahoma at risk by telling potential offenders there's a "legal" way to rape them.

And you're none of the hundreds or thousands of feminist scholars, writers, thinkers, researchers, teachers and philosophers who constructed and propagate the body of bunkum theories upon which all of these atrocities are based.

You're the true feminist. Some random person on the internet.

AccomplishedSail5456 · 2022-11-30T19:52:31+00:00

Simone de Beauvoir was a sexual abuser and also passed her victims to Sartre. Her work influenced feminist theory and started second wave feminism. She signed a petition to completely remove the age of consent in France. No feminist cares that Beauvoir sexually abused young people. Her works are still covered in gender studies. That's one of many reasons why feminism has no credibility for me.

Middle-Eye2129 · 2022-11-30T22:55:55+00:00

If you're for equality then why not call yourself and egalitarian? Why even gender it unless theres a the presence bias? It's like saying I'm a chauvinist but that means I stand for equality. The statement makes no sense.

DanzigMisfit · 2022-12-01T03:56:18+00:00

You can debunk until you are blue in the face. Hardcore feminists are never going to see reason. It's their identity and that is something they will not change easily.

lordluke10 · 2022-11-30T20:54:05+00:00

Ask them to name a single thing that feminism has done that has improved mens lives, without being an improvement of womens lives too.

If it was truly a movement about equality, they should be fighting for rights of men too. They are against things like financial abortion, adding women to the draft and increasing female representation in dangerous jobs. This is clear proof that they DO NOT give a flying fuck about men's rights, and can therefore by definition not call feminism another word for equality.

Also ask them why they call it feminism instead egalitarianism, if it's actually about equality. The only answer I've gotten has been "the movement has steam behind it, it would be stupid", which is fucking retarded.

WhereProgressIsMade · 2022-11-30T21:25:28+00:00

That's the no true Scotsman fallacy.

https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/no-true-scotsman

tired_hillbilly · 2022-12-01T01:44:52+00:00

Even the name is gendered. If it was really about equality, it would be egalitarianism.

sorebum405 · 2022-11-30T22:06:40+00:00

Just tell them that feminism doesn't really exist in practice then, only in theory, and that they should start a feminist movement to stop these misandrists posing as feminists.

iainmf · 2022-11-30T23:50:46+00:00

One thing I have done is accept that definition and used it it define myself as a feminist. Then I make all of my points starting with 'as a feminist'.

For example, "As a feminist, I think there is a serious problem with fake-feminists controlling the feminist movement. Our movement is no longer about equality and is about female supremacy and man-hating".

duhhhh · 2022-11-30T20:52:07+00:00

"Please educate feminists on the dictionary definition of feminism. If the influential feminist researchers, professors, lobbiests, public policy makers, journalists, authors, politicians, and protesters (and the "real feminists" like you using their work rather than calling out their sexism, bias, bigotry, data manipulation, outright lies, etc) were to follow the dictionary definition of feminism rather than the man hating spirit of feminism, we wouldn't be at odds with them. Most of us would be feminists ourselves."

egalitarianmod · 2022-11-30T22:25:31+00:00

Interesting how there are two users quickly downvoting every argument made by an MRA in this thread.

w_cruice · 2022-12-01T00:38:11+00:00

You cannot convince those who get rich supporting the lie. They're zealots. Don't waste your time and breath.

LowPressureUsername · 2022-12-01T06:07:06+00:00

1) Ask which dictionary definition they’re using. And fact check it. “It’s the advancements of women’s place in society with the justification of being about equity. Not inherently about equality, there is a difference.”

2) Tell them it’s fallacious https://effectiviology.com/appeal-to-definition/

3) Ask them if they understand that language changes. Movements change. Ideas grow and evolve. A definition that might’ve been valid 100, 50 or even 20 years ago may now be outdated. Tell them nations use different dialects and different dialects use different grammar and definitions.

4) Ask them what the difference between feminism and egalitarianism is. “Well why don’t you consider yourself an egalitarian? Why do you bind yourself to feminism?”

Throning · 2022-11-30T21:47:48+00:00

I'd point to the Karen Straughan copy paste that gets posted now and then; to point out several feminist's relatively toward the top of the organization(s), and several groups & chapters that claim to be for women/feminism, on just how "not equal" they operate. The "No, they aren't true feminists, you, some random on the internet, is the real feminist!" post.

That definition you used is functionally a No True Scotsman fallacy - and the Karen Straughan copy/paste basically highlights how absurd the "about equality" part is, or the "they are not feminists" part.

Basketballjuice · 2022-12-01T00:00:44+00:00

They are right that that is feminism, but if they don't believe in the rights of genders that are not women, they aren't feminists. So just ask:

"So then how are you a feminist?"

There are good feminists out there, hell, I consider myself one.

NeoNotNeo · 2022-11-30T21:17:14+00:00

Sure. Look up definitions National Socialism used about its policies in Germany. What little I remember about it from history docs was it was flooded with glory and pride of being German. Somehow this ended up much different.

EmirikolWoker · 2022-11-30T21:56:06+00:00

This is my go-to

g1455ofwater · 2022-11-30T21:43:06+00:00

The dictionary is wrong. Feminist dishonesty extends into dictionaries.

That's a red herring though it's not really relevant. Even if the dictionary was right the complaints of inequality towards men are because of policies and ideas pushed in the name of feminism that is sold as feminism and the majority of society see as feminism regardless of whether or not it is feminism.

Antanarau · 2022-11-30T23:37:47+00:00

Its a common "word of law" and "spirit of law" debate. Just ask them if these definitions are never changing, or ask them if someone made a dictionary where feminism was the world's evil it would automatically make it so.

Antarkian · 2022-11-30T21:36:18+00:00

It's simple as them the same question about men and women, if the answers are different. It defeats their entire argument.

NorthwestDM · 2022-11-30T23:08:17+00:00

Actions speak louder than words. ask them to name even a single instance where feminist campaigns have actually worked to gain anything for men or even see that men gain equal treatment where women are advantaged, they won't be able to because it hasn't happened to the best of my knowledge. Then bring up feminist opposition to things like campaigns for 50/50 custody being treated as the default position in divorce courts or feminist groups actively campaigning for the closure of domestic violence shelters for male victims. if they haven't blocked or reported you by that point ask them how you are supposed to accept that definition when no movement under the banner actually follows through with it.

AbnormalConstruct · 2022-11-30T22:43:04+00:00

It’s very simple. You say that just because someone calls themselves something that has a definiton, that does not mean they abide by that definition.

I and a significant portion of the population could start calling ourselves blue, and we’d be known as the blue people, not because we’re actually blue but because we call ourselves that.

LouisdeRouvroy · 2022-12-01T01:36:17+00:00

It's called the no true Scotsman fallacy.

But then again, logic might be too patriarchal to be of use.

xxTheMagicBulleT · 2022-12-01T03:23:04+00:00

The name feminism already says it. If it was about fairness, it would not be called feminism it would be called gender equality. Putting a gender in the name already shows on what side yea hope is put on top. Put feminists love to bullshit and change the meaning of words. So parts of people are thinking it means one thing and means something els completely different from the real definition of the word. Both feminism and transgender people love to change and make up words or change genders' meanings. Nothing against the people you do you. But if you male up words all the time wail there are already definitions for words already. You're watering down words so much that it lost all meaning at some point. Words have a meaning for a reason and if most people that dont follow that group all the time have no fucking clue what yea fucking talking about your doing something wrong. But its the only way the know how to fight agreements with my feelings and confusing the living hell out off people and changing meanings of words suddenly so it seems less bad wail the really mean the oldreal meaning of the word. And have an inside gotcha moment

SlavRoach · 2022-12-01T08:22:59+00:00

to be fair I’ve seen feminists on the internet saying feminism failed men because it was supposed to make the sexes equal

RoryTate · 2022-12-01T13:26:05+00:00

That's an easy one. I simply give them the following test, and I even include a simple-to-understand list of answers so as to not tax their minds too much with this strange activity called thinking, and surprise, surprise...they always fail even a simple multiple-choice quiz with flying colours:

Men receive 60-80% longer prison sentences on average than women when convicted of the same crime. In order to make sure equality is achieved, would you:

A. Review the sentence lengths of each group quarterly for the same crime, and change sentences over the group to remove any inequality, either by shortening the sentences of men as a group, or lengthening those of the women as a group, or some combination of both.

B. Leave the current system for sentencing in place.

C. Argue that female prisons should be abolished, and prison sentencing for women should be disallowed for any non-violent crime, but make no changes to male incarceration, which further widens the sentencing gap.

Which would you choose?

Well, the feminists in media, politics, and academia all support option C, and this system has even been enacted in law in many countries (the UK for example). The majority of online and everyday feminists either support option B or C. It is only the egalitarians within the MHRM who argue for the objective equality of option A.

I'll sometimes even add in a question about the gendered laws around FGM as opposed to MGM, and I've even got the text of Canada's Criminal Code handy for quoting, where this crime is listed under Section 268 for Aggravated Assault – which was written, approved, and enacted into law by feminists – if I really want to drive the point home about the real-world examples of feminism's unfair and unequal activities.

63daddy · 2022-12-01T13:36:55+00:00

Point to all the laws feminists have lobbied for and won which advantage women over men and clearly are not about equality.

Actions speak louder than words. Feminism is what feminism does and what feminism does us promote advantages Ming women over men and promoting misandry.

Rudi150594 · 2022-12-01T15:59:38+00:00

in the Spanish dictionary RAE, feminismo also is described as a movement which fights for the equality of the rights of the sexes. Since I am not part of this movement (I don't actively fight for those rights), I don't consider myself a feminist.

Also there's the fallacy called "argument from dictionary" or "appeal to definition".

Citation:

"(...), dictionary definitions don’t always reflect the meaning of words as they’re used by people in reality. (...)

Furthermore, another notable problem with appeals to definition is that different dictionaries can list different definitions for a given term, and even a single dictionary can have multiple definitions for the same term.

Accordingly, it’s generally fallacious to claim that any single definition is the right one. Furthermore, in many cases, such claims involve fallacious cherry-picking, where people pick the definition that best supports their stance out of the ones available to them, while ignoring others."

Source:

https://effectiviology.com/appeal-to-definition/#:~:text=The%20appeal%20to%20definition%20(also,dictionary%20or%20a%20similar%20source.

Anih1list · 2022-12-01T17:40:53+00:00

A word can have multiple definitions. We understand this when it comes to gender identities where man could mean “adult human male” or “person who takes a masculine social role” or simply “human”.

The real question is why we group all these different types of activists under the umbrella “feminist”. Are you commenting on the ideological tradition or the ease with which progressive feminists can slip into reactionary misandry? Or are you simply using it to insult feminism altogether as a concept with no differentiation between the good and the bad?

neighborhoodpainter · 2022-12-01T22:16:15+00:00

Ask them the definition of racism, I'm sure they'll use the "progressive" viewpoint of power + privilege.

Angryasfk · 2022-12-03T08:39:16+00:00

I always say I judge them by what they do rather than what they say they’re about.

Title	How do u debunk the feminism dictionary definition argument?
Author	No_Conflict9034
Upvotes	47
Comments	60
Date	November 30, 2022 7:26 PM UTC (3 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/z90lyd/how_do_u_debunk_the_feminism_dictionary/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/how-do-u-debunk-the-feminism-dictionary-definition.1141239 https://theredarchive.com/post/1141239

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