A new era: it is acceptable to openly mock anyone who expresses concern about punishing innocents accused of rape

[–]overtmind 6 points7 points8 points 13 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

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[+]madelee91 -11 points-10 points-9 points 13 years ago (9 children) | Copy Link

Do you mean The Good Men Project? I would have thought MRAs loved that, it's an incredible accumulation of the voices of men from all walks of life and their struggles with cultural norms, starting a family, and generally just being a man.

Secondly, I know it seems ridiculous to want vigilantism by men but I think for the most part that isn't want these movements are calling for. It's more so that if a man is with a group of friends and they catcall at a girl he can tell them to stop, or if a man is at a bar and sees a man attempting to get a very drunk girl to leave with him he can say "hey man, I think she's had to much" or even just let a bouncer know that the girl seems at risk for being raped. It's not like men need to run down dark alleys and beat up attackers like some small town batman, but it's an attempt to try and reduce the amount of rape and sexual harassment that occurs in our society. The police can't be everywhere... If that is too difficult then so be it, it's certainly not a commandment, more so a plea for help.

[–]enzikio11 points 13 years ago* [recovered] (4 children) | Copy Link

Regarding your second point, it seems that you really haven't thought things through properly.

For that catcall, what if he tells you to "mind your own business" or "go fuck yourself". Now what? Do you go over and hit him? Do you push him? You have now initiated violence over words. You have now initiated vigilantism. And if you don't escalate, what else can you do but walk away grumbling and have accomplished nothing. Not to mention you have treated the woman like she is not capable of handling things herself ("white knighting" and "sexist").

As for your bar scenario, how do you even begin to inject yourself into a situation like that. What if the guy is the drunk girl's boyfriend? How do you confirm that? Having grown up in a state with a very strong drinking culture (number #1 for alcoholism I believe) , I have experienced this often. In fact, the story of a girl getting massively drunk and then needed help home is almost a trope at this point.

So what do you do? Ask her for confirmation? If she is passed out drunk then she will not be answering you anyway. A rapist isn't going to announce to you what their intentions are. They'll know how to lie or do whatever else they need to do.

You can also run into the scenario where the woman herself tells you to go away. She is very clearly drunk but still insists on going with him anyway. Again, now what?

The problem is that the goal is to shame men into becoming walking bodyguards for women everywhere. This implies that women are not capable of handling themselves at the same level as men, the very antithesis of women's equality.

[+]madelee91 -2 points-1 points0 points 13 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

I understand that this situation is incredibly complicated and I certainly don't think it's solely targeted to men. Women are consistently told to watch out for each other, to go out together, to keep our eyes open for rape-y situations. I once had a woman come up to me at a bar to tell me that a man at the bar had told the man beside him that he was going to grab me when I left (not sure if he was joking, but certainly a very threatening thing to say) and I had the bouncer walk me out of the bar when I left just to be safe.

Why can't we act as a community to prevent violence? Again you don't need to start a fight with someone, just walk away from a situation if you feel threatened by it, and if it seems really dangerous call the police. The idea that the goal is to shame men in becoming walking bodyguards for women everywhere is an outlandish overstatement, the goal is to open people's eyes to the idea that simply being aware of what's going on around you and taking even a small step to help someone out of a dangerous situation can save someone. I hate to admit it but I am not as capable of preventing a man from raping me as one of my male friend's would be at preventing that man from raping me. I have been accosted in the alley outside a bar before and held against a wall, one of my male friends came out of the bar a little bit after me saw the guy and simply yelled "hey man, back off!" and the guy left. Just showing someone that you are watching them can be enough to stop them from hurting someone.

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IF that's what it was, it would be awesome. I went there hopeful, but that's not what it is. 75% of their audience is women, which should tell you how accurately their stated site mission reflects their actual site's purpose. TGMP is where men get lectured by feminists, have their comments deleted and generally get treated like second class citicens, the same as every other feminist site.

It's not my job to decide when a woman has had too much. IF she's at the legal state of 'too intoxicated to consent', that would be one thing. But feminists don't restrict themselves to what the law actually say (and these laws define intoxication, generally, as having lost consciousness at some point in the evening, regardless of their current state). They go with a layman's definition of 'drunk' every time, and that isn't what the law states.

And I don't for one second believe that you all don't want us to run down dark alleys. You all say this now, but feminists have a long history of advancing opinions they claimed that only crazy people could hold just a few years before.

[+]madelee91 0 points1 point2 points 13 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Oh really, that's very sad, I'm sorry. I've only ever puttered around on the website so I don't have a lot of information and was working mostly with their mission statement and the few articles I have read.

I cannot speak for all feminists, only myself, but I do not want innocent citizens, men or women, risking their lives down a dark alley, and I will not change this view in a few years.

Why do you jump to the conclusion that I am lying/will change my principals? This is my problem with discussing things on this subreddit, I am frequently insulted on a personal level.

Out of curiosity, do you have an example of an opinion that was at first only held by crazy people but is now largely accepted by feminists? (other than of course the early ideas that existed before the movement was strong such as women's suffrage)

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I don't like to take this attitude, because I really try to argue to a point of mutual agreement, but I'm just going to stop here.

You clearly have no idea what you're talking about. Go read some legal theory and/or some philosophy. You're advocating a very dangerous position: one that is at odds with commonly-accepted guidelines of human rights as well as the foundation of legal theory.

In other words: you're being intentionally dense. You may have your heart in the right place, but you are misguided in how you go about that. Decisions of innocence or guilt should be left to a jury of one's peers, and that's that.

The court of public opinion is a kangaroo court precisely because they assume guilt or innocence based on incomplete evidence and sensationalism. If you want to bring that attitude into real courtrooms... well... that's your right.

But that's all I have to say about that

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No, the last thing you want is for any woman anywhere to ever suffer violence at the hands of men.

If the last thing feminists wanted was for men get jailed for false accusations, the net result of their legal reforms wouldn't be to sacrifice the rights of men for the perceived safety of women.

But you're the ones who criminalized men yelling too loudly or slamming doors ( domestic 'violence' threats), obvious examples of free expression, simply because both make women uncomfortable. You're the ones who made it easy to kick men out of school on the word of women alone, because you didn't actually want to have to prove him guilty of rape (hiding behind Title IX, of all things, to do it). You're the ones who have no decided that harassment should be treated the same way, and that any act a woman considered harassment must be treated as harassment.

What you all say, an what you all do? Two entirely different things.

[+]madelee91 -4 points-3 points-2 points 13 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

Please don't presume to tell me what the last thing I want is. "The last thing I want" should not literally be taken as the last possible thing I want. That would take a lot of philosophical pondering on my part and would probably not be related to feminism, men's rights, or even humanity. In the situation of false rape accusations, the last thing I want is for the falsely accused to be jailed.

I think the idea that a woman never deserves to have violence enacted upon her is absurd. Women beat their husbands, attack children and can be generally abusive, and it is perfectly reasonable for someone to want to say punch them in the face as a form of self defense (I know that in a lot of ways women are protected unfairly from violence in this scenario, I do not agree with this)

There are bunches of different ideologies, political movements, and social groups who call themselves feminist, some feminists are behind that legislation others are not (I'm not). This seems like a really difficult concept for a lot of MRAs to understand. Often it seems like it's just so much easier to attack women who self-identify as feminist by lumping them in to one large cohesive group than to recognize the high level of diversity within said group and actually get down to a real discussion.

What we all say, and what we all do? Are thousands of entirely different things.

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I'm sorry, I don't know what all of these acronyms mean. What does NAFALT mean? Could I please have some examples of laws that feminists have gotten passed that hurt men? (I'm in no way saying they don't exist, I'm just curious what you're talking about exactly) I understand being upset about political movements and laws being passed that you feel discriminate against men, but I don't understand why I can't have a calm reasonable debate on a subject. I come here and I immediately feel attacked. Of course I have a concept of proportion, why immediately jump to that kind personal insult, can't we discuss this rationally?

And simply because MRAs haven't passed a law hurting women, that doesn't mean that some of them haven't had any damaging effects on women: fighting to maintain misogynistic attitudes, perpetuating myths, demeaning and threatening women who are speaking out for their beliefs. My point is we can throw insults and point fingers at each other all day, but when we get down to it, I agree with a lot of the meat behind many Men's Rights claims and I believe many men can see the veracity behind many feminist claims so why can't we really tackle what's damaging us, such as strict gender roles and overwhelming socialization by the media.

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Yes, I'm sure that all of those boys getting raped in prison give a fuck about you fighting gender wars.

Get some perspective on this issue. On most, you'd be right. But people's lives are at stake when it comes to this. Balancing the scales by adopting the adversarial system is too important.

To hear you all tell it, the defense shouldn't even bother to help their client, because after all, finding the truth is more important than preserving his rights. But yeah, that's not how the justice system works.

Edit: let me boil this down. If one side cares about winning, and the other side only cares about making sure the game stays even, who is going to win? We all know the answer to that. Now, is this is a children's game we're playing here, where the results don't matter so long as everyone has fun?

I don't think it is. If one side plays to win, then both have to play to win, or the side that doesn't will get slaughtered.

[–]CremasterGuy 1 point2 points3 points 13 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]Ding_batman 0 points1 point2 points 13 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Title	A new era: it is acceptable to openly mock anyone who expresses concern about punishing innocents accused of rape
Author	PierceHarlan
Upvotes	233
Comments	72
Date	June 27, 2013 12:18 PM UTC (13 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/1h69uw/a_new_era_it_is_acceptable_to_openly_mock_anyone/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/a-new-era-it-is-acceptable-to-openly-mock-anyone.1170069 https://theredarchive.com/post/1170069

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