Is there a paradox in learning seduction?

YetzirahToAhssiah · 2013-07-29T04:14:12+00:00

The way I see it, is that you are interested in the outcome, but not DEPENDENT, it's not going to hurt you if you don't get the outcome that you want. Obviously you have a goal. It's just that if you fail, you can meet someone else and try again.

TheCuriousDude · 2013-07-29T02:13:06+00:00

I think it's comparable to money. The idea of "money isn't everything" is a lot more understandable to someone who grew up comfortably. However, if you tell it to someone who grew up in poverty, they're likely to disregard it as nonsense and ignore you. If you tell a dude who is having trouble getting laid (i.e. many subscribers of /r/seduction) "sex isn't everything", you would get a similar reaction. It is possible for one in a scarcity situation to understand that what they're missing isn't everything, but it would be a lot easier for them to get what they seek in order to understand such an idea.

The way to reconcile outcome independence with wanting the actual outcome is having fun during the process, not giving a fuck, and not tying your self-worth to your success. In an actual game or sport, well-adjusted people will feel bad after losing, but they don't beat themselves up forever. They pick themselves up and try to get better.

The sad thing about /r/theredpill is that even if you ignore all the bitterness, misogyny, and psuedo-science, the members spend so much time jerking over "being so fucking red pill alpha" that there's little actionable advice in the subreddit. Their tagline is "Discussion of sexual strategy in a culture increasingly lacking a positive identity for men." I'm looking at their front-page right now and few of the current top posts talk about sexual strategy at all. If I wanted to talk about men's rights (I don't; I don't feel particularly oppressed or whatever), I would go to /r/MensRights. And what's the point of another subreddit about sexual strategy (if /r/theredpill actually discussed sexual strategy) when /r/seduction already exists?

^{^{^*typos}}

Gelnn · 2013-07-29T03:09:51+00:00

The Investment Paradox, as Mr. Manson refers to it.

CaptThack · 2013-07-29T09:12:21+00:00

One of the best ways of getting good in game while not wanting too much from women is by divorcing the entire idea of value. I know it sounds hard, but once you make efforts to see the world outside of the "does this action increase or decrease my value" you begin to develop an odd sense of freedom in your sets and interactions. Its like all of a sudden you have the freedom to make mistakes and you remain calm because you know what works and as long as you keep pushing the right buttons and moving the interaction forward you'll get where you intended to be.

This also works well with the HB scale. Why would a man rate the beauty of one woman to another for the sake of informing other men. If I'm attracted I'll approach, of not i wont.

frogma · 2013-07-29T01:49:06+00:00

I think the idea of "calibration" is pretty much the opposite of "not giving a shit." If you were to completely stop giving a shit, you'd be a psychopath. If you did the opposite, you'd be a little bitch in every situation, constantly sucking up to people, constantly being submissive.

"Not giving a shit" is good for various reasons, in various situations. But also, "calibration" is pretty damn important in various situations. You need an ability to not care about the outcome, while also not overstepping various social/legal "laws." It's probably best to have some sort of middle-ground. Either way, when it comes to "not caring," that only really applies to the outcome, not "in general."

Gamma_Male_ · 2013-07-29T05:30:47+00:00

Is there a way to reconcile outcome independence with, you know, wanting the actual outcome?

Of course you want the actual outcome of getting women, you work for it and show persistence if needed but you don't tie your self-worth and self-esteem to getting them.

nittutt · 2013-07-29T07:47:32+00:00

The better you get, the less you care.

centurijon · 2013-07-29T13:33:51+00:00

I would say that the paradox of true seduction is the lack of seduction. Once you master the principles of seduction you cease to seduce. You simply honest. I simply say the things that are on my mind and women are attracted to me. I find that honesty is the most powerful tool that I cam use to seduce women

2013-07-31T09:13:14+00:00

I used to have a friend who's entire "strategy" with women was to just stride right up to them and go "woah, you're hot!" or whatever the fuck came into his head. Now on the face of it, thats a terrible line; don't ever compliment a woman was what I'd read in the guides at the time, don't give away your value blah blah

But contrast here: On the one hand was him, walking up to girls with his shit eating grin and just going with whatever, and on the other hand was me, standing around with my dick in my hand trying to come up with the perfect opener that showed that I was alpha and into her-her-but-not-too-into-her-look-how-high-value-I-am.

Which of us was more desperate?

I havent really posted on pick up boards in years and it was that example, along with a few others (mainly noticing that the stereotypical chest beating "alpha"s I was seeing didn't do nearly as well as I was lead to believe they're supposed to) that changed it. I realized at some point that the less I cared about strategy, and the more preconceptions I dumped, the better I did.

I do believe that there is a degree of skill in picking up women, but the way PUA typically frames it is as if its some ultra difficult kung-fu lifelong journey to the top of the mountain type shit, as long as you're buying into that then yeah, you're gonna overestimate its significance in your life.

"what is alpha? Alpha is any trait that displays high value to women. Beta is any trait that displays low value to women."

Thats a tautology, anything thats attractive is alpha, anything thats alpha is attractive.

Logically, that makes the term "alpha" totally redundant. Doubly useless even since the term carries so much additional baggage that "attractive" doesn't.

TRP spends so much time getting their knickers in a twist about whats "alpha" and whats not that it gets bizarre and weird and hateful.

horrific_advice · 2013-07-29T17:07:54+00:00

When you start you are so nervous to achieve what your trying to accomplish that your thoughts and actions work against you. Eventually after some small successes, you will accumulated more enamored women than you can logistically handle. Suddenly you can choose to have one or more women on any given day depending on how much time you have left for yourself and the idea of another approach neither scares or inspires you. At this point, you give not a single fuck, and the women will flock towards you in an attempt to validate their own attractiveness and social value. With the mystery and appeal of any given random woman deteriorated by the endless worthless sexual partners and continuous laborious text messaging and bullshit, you are left just wanting that one loyal, beautiful woman that you neglected and dumped in high school, when you were so drawn to the echo of the high heels down the hall from your english class.

itsmevichet · 2013-07-29T19:00:31+00:00

Life is paradox. Your effectiveness at being alive will be based on knowing when to give a shit, and when to let things slide.

It seems like so long as a person is in "the game", so to speak, they would not be able to escape basing their entire validation on the opinions of women.

That's like saying a star basketball player can't retire - and also is misunderstanding whether a star basketball player, if he loves what he does, would even WANT to retire.

That's the thing about the game: when you're doing it right, as a woman or a man, you'll be having fun. You'll feel like the part of the world that is in your life is something that you have a hand in shaping. You feel like you have choices, instead of grinding through a series of scripts because there are no options.

To beginners, the game is torture. When you start to get the hang of it and start fixing the problems you never knew you had, the game becomes FUN.

centurijon · 2013-07-29T19:54:41+00:00

The endgame of seduction is to get women. Of course. That's the whole point.

Not necessarily.

The endgame of seduction is to be attractive to women. What you do with that attraction is completely up to you.

Case in point, me: I've had a lot of fun, I've tallied up a good number. But right now I'm not looking for more, I'm using what I've learned in seduction to keep someone that I feel is right for me.

Back to your point: On the surface it is a dichotomy, but it is also necessary.

Outcome independence kills neediness. Very few people are attracted to someone who is needy. It's a way of communicating "I'm not going to put up with crap just to sleep with you." (more on this at the end).
Women (and men) often want what they can't have, or can't get easily. More specifically, they want what they have to put a little effort into getting. Women tend to generate this by playing hard to get. PUAs tend generate this by making someone validate themselves. When it is done right the investment that they put in you adds to attraction. Being outcome independent achieves this by making others feel like they need to prove themselves to you, rather than the other way around.

"what is alpha? Alpha is any trait that displays high value to women. Beta is any trait that displays low value to women.

Many people on reddit would agree with that because the term has been thrown around casually enough that the definition has become twisted.

"Alpha" is about displaying leadership, independence, and congruency. And it has nothing to do (necessarily) with women. It is attractive to anyone.

Is there a way to reconcile outcome independence with, you know, wanting the actual outcome?

Yes. In fact, seduction teaches this.

Demonstrate your intentions.

There's nothing wrong with letting someone know that you're attracted to them and you want to sleep with them. But if that doesn't happen then you move on. You don't link your self-worth to your ability to get women. Don't make others feel like you're needy. That is what outcome independence prevents.

matrix2002 · 2013-07-29T03:17:49+00:00

Is there a way to reconcile outcome independence with, you know, wanting the actual outcome?

In a word, no. You have to get value from your inner self. You have to see yourself as having intrinsic value no matter if you are rich, poor, have 3 girlfriends, zero dates or whatever.

"what is alpha? Alpha is any trait that displays high value to women. Beta is any trait that displays low value to women."

Alpha is whatever you think it means. For me, it means being your own man. It means creating my own definitions. It means nothing.

Seduction, like any other goal worth striving for, is a journey. And you learn a lot about yourself in the process of learning seduction.

Dating higher quality women consistently is just a part of me.

Why does the runner run?

Why does the fighter fight?

There is no reason, they just do it.

"Seek paradox, there lies truth." - Osho

Title	Is there a paradox in learning seduction?
Author	pre_nerf_infestor
Upvotes	67
Comments	58
Date	July 29, 2013 1:17 AM UTC (13 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/seduction
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/seduction/comments/1j8xcr/is_there_a_paradox_in_learning_seduction/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/seduction/is-there-a-paradox-in-learning-seduction.1356097 https://theredarchive.com/post/1356097

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