Do you think "women supporters" in general place you somewhere you don't even want to be in?

Own-Opportunity4100 · 2024-08-06T02:31:33+00:00

Not to completely wash off all the positives of being a feminist or a supporter of women, but for me, a former feminist activist, I lost all my enthusiasm for...

[–]WerevulviPurple Pill Woman 10 points11 points12 points 1 year ago (2 children) | Copy Link

Yeah, I definitely do. I'm not a feminist though. The more I've looked into it, it seems most of feminism wants equity and basically coddle women and treat us like perpetual victims who can do no wrong. But mostly I'm just tired of the victim mentality and taking away of women's agency. It kinda ironically feels more misogynistic than the supposed opposition sometimes. I also really dislike how so much of feminism is just about hating on men, and walking over men to lift up women. I don't want to be uplifted at that kinda cost.

Although I'm also against the traditionalist conservative mindset around women. I don't really believe gender roles are innate or anything. I don't think there's any one size fits all women. I kinda just wanna be treated as a person first and foremost, and want equality of opportunity. Like equal rights and equal responsibility. No special rights. That just makes me feel like I'm seen as inherently less capable.

I consider myself egalitarian, and against all forms of sexism, ie both misogyny and misandry. I believe that true equality cannot exist unless the issues of both sexes are being addressed. So I do also care about men's rights and ideally want to work together with both men and other women for that gender equality. I'd also say I'm centrist/libertarian. So I'm right-leaning but very barely. I'm generally for capitalism (only really because I think socialism is even worse though) but I don't think the extremes of it (like mass production) are sustainable.

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[–]AngeCruelleBlue Pill Woman: The insufferable virgin strikes back 11 points12 points13 points 1 year ago (9 children) | Copy Link

No. I didn't even grow up in an environment where feminism meant much beyond "Congrats on your right to vote and work part-time to kinda supplement your husband's income if you feel like it. God bless America." (Yes I'm Gen Z but also from the Bible Belt.) Women in my own family were among the exceptions, being very ambitious and career-driven, and that inspired me a lot. They aren't "miserable." The career, the degree, the money aren't their entire identity. They love their families more than anything. My mom couldn't make it to every school event, but when she did come she would light up the whole room and everyone, including the kids and other parents, wanted to be around her. One of my favorite memories is the time she came to read a book to my class (parents signed up on a schedule to do it). And on top of that she brought candy and bubble wands for everyone. That was such a wonderful day.

This may come across as a surprise but I actually don't spend that much time on social media. I'm not entirely sure how girl/woman boss is defined or if the women in my family would be considered as such. I just know I want to be like them.

[–]Own-Opportunity4100Purple Blue Leaning I'm better than you pill[S] 1 point2 points3 points 1 year ago* (8 children) | Copy Link

"Money isn't their entire life" means that they most probably had money in the first place cause that's just how it is; money is nothing when you have it, but it's everything when you don't.

And that's fine, being privileged is not a crime but I think it means that privileged person have more of an obligation to use this privilege to uplift those who are unprivileged, and I don't think giving working-class women delusions and telling them the only way to become independent is to marry your job (which often results in them becoming individualists more than independent) waiting for the day that they'll finally become "the boss," is helping that much. A person with such message is still a disconnected privileged person who fails to understand the circumstances of these women in the first place, and it's a bigger problem if it's an entire group or a big portion of a group.

Also, yes, it does come as a surprise. With all due respect, you keep saying that you're not online that much and this is probably the third time that I read you saying that and I keep seeing your comments all over this sub

Not that it matters but that's a bit much for someone who's not online lol

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[–]Own-Opportunity4100Purple Blue Leaning I'm better than you pill[S] 0 points1 point2 points 1 year ago* (0 children) | Copy Link

I respect your decision and it's fine but in my defense; I did read your comment and understand it despite having a language barrier and you just proofed what I said right here in that one. Your family was privileged to have a great-grandfather like yours who's more progressive than any conservative or even liberal during his time with the decisions he made.

And hey, congrats on all your family's achievements! This doesn't make it any less impressive and I'm not saying that your great-grandfather should take all the credit for it or some weird shit like that, but all I'm saying is that they (the women in your family) don't fall under the same category as most unprivileged women who are born with misogyny plaguing their family since birth.

Those women resort to external support systems as an alternative, such as feminist movements and initiatives like the ones I worked with throughout the years and I explained in great detail my criticisms of said movements cause I frankly think the end result of everything we did is women being fed into this capitalist, LinkedIn job market place hell that we're living under that I myself am trying to break out of despite all the "success" (boss applauding) that I'm having, so it doesn't make sense for me to still be active in such spaces.

It's not that big of a deal actually cause all I'm saying is I don't think said movements need men like me anymore who can only provide with what they know and have experienced in the job market place, but you're bound to have weird, lowlife Reddit activists like the one who replied to your comment freaking out about this cause that's all they do to make themselves feel like they're doing something.

Again, there are positives but I think the end result is mostly not allowing those women to think or see themselves past the line drawn to suppress their true potential, that sells them delusions and that doesn't tell them about the realities of that system.

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It goes with everything and has nothing to do with gender. We take the things we have for granted, and we don't feel their impact until they're gone.

Money and class, however, are bigger issues than whatever some might take for granted. You can't be a privileged wealthy person and put yourself in the same category as someone who's poor, you can't preach about "money is not everything" to someone who might die or lose a loved one because they can't pay their medical bills. That's just how it is.

I think you can find common ground in anything else other than having money or being privileged.

Money is the #1 reason why people have trouble with relationships. You can think of it however you want, but how I think of it is if money wasn't a problem for any man, they will have all the time, mental capacity, stress free and feeling so fucking powerful and confident to focus and take care of themselves and the way they look.

Any man who has the money to dress properly, have the time (time is money and money is time) to focus on their hair, skin and the way they look, groom themselves properly and hit the gym (knowing they're able to afford their daily calories and deal with having to treat any injuries without the cost of all of that ruining their lives) - I think any man who has all of that shouldn't have anything to complaint about when it comes to relationships and they're definitely the problem if they do.

And sure we can talk about being disabled and stuff like that, those people under any system of the economy (socialism would be better cause sex work will be safe and regulated) can still pay for it and fuck the prettiest sexiest women because he can afford it, and I'm sure most of these women will be more than happy to do so especially because that person is disabled and they can help with that while still getting paid for it.

Money, class differences and the capitalist system of the economy are the #1 issues causing most of the problems we have in terms of relationships, and most problems that our world is facing currently in general.

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feminists don't want more hierarchy, feminists want to end hierarchy and live in communities where people care about each other, not where the powerful coerce the rest of us into doing what works for them

My mom is a feminist, 2nd wave. I grew up around feminsts and I have this kind of general rule for how I deal with people. I stop listening to what they say, and then I watch what they DO.

I see a lot of very intelligent and generally thoughtful feminists and what the DO is put themselves at the top of heirarchies and oppress people below them. They also from an ideological standpoint, completely ignore anyone's problems that are not their own, or someone they cannot use to further their own goals.

This is why I consider myself a gender egalitarian, because I actually care how people are doing regardless of their gender and if a group is struggling I have a desire to help them.

and i agree w this, feminists aren't perfect angels, just like any group there will be corruption and we have to figure out how to deal w this

but no one hides corruption better than 1) churches and 2) families

both will coddle predators and villify victims

I worked in politics. There are lots of men like Harvey Weinstein who abuse their positions of power. I'm sorry to say this but I was working in a mayors race and I had heard some rumors that our candidate had a prediliction for young boys of a particular ethnicity. This rumor went around rapidly and then a boy came forward. The woman from the campaign who went to threaten him and who also worked with media folks to bury the story was our most radical feminist. To this day she still says that the boy was lying even though it all came out nearly a decade later.

I've been there, I've seen how power works. When you have to choose between having someone in power who will advance your cause, and taking a huge reputation hit, and potentially losing that powerful champion, you know which one they always choose. Everyone does this... even churches and families.

[–]apresonlyFeminist Woman 🌹 karma is my boyfriend 🌹 1 point2 points3 points 1 year ago (5 children) | Copy Link

This is why I consider myself a gender egalitarian, because I actually care how people are doing regardless of their gender and if a group is struggling I have a desire to help them.

good. men shouldn't call themselves feminists. no offense intended, i just don't believe in allies (i dont call myself a gay rights ally, for instance, even though this is a deeply personal cause for me, bc i am not gay).

that abysmal post from a male feminist yesterday is a great example of why i think this, if you need one.

I worked in politics. There are lots of men like Harvey Weinstein who abuse their positions of power. I'm sorry to say this but I was working in a mayors race and I had heard some rumors that our candidate had a prediliction for young boys of a particular ethnicity. This rumor went around rapidly and then a boy came forward. The woman from the campaign who went to threaten him and who also worked with media folks to bury the story was our most radical feminist. To this day she still says that the boy was lying even though it all came out nearly a decade later.

she should be in jail. prison. locked up. have a sex offender flag that lets everyone know she is a dangerous person to be around.

I've been there, I've seen how power works.

in a capitalist hellscape.

maybe there's a better way. maybe we are FUBAR. I can't say. 🤷‍♀️

Everyone does this... even churches and families.

ESPECIALLY churches and families, those places are ground zero for hiding predators.

both froth at the mouth to defend predators in their ranks but will tell victims to shut up and get over it.

I have seen that one study where people shocked a person they couldn't see that seems to show that we're all susceptible to abusing others when in power. i would think thats a great argument for restructuring power not based on plausible deniability (maybe the leader might do wrong, but we'd have to prove it) but based on the idea that people WILL abuse power and how we can keep leaders accountable with that knowledge.

[–]Jaded-Worldliness597Red Pill Man 0 points1 point2 points 1 year ago (4 children) | Copy Link

good. men shouldn't call themselves feminists. no offense intended, i just don't believe in allies (i dont call myself a gay rights ally, for instance, even though this is a deeply personal cause for me, bc i am not gay). that abysmal post from a male feminist yesterday is a great example of why i think this, if you need one.

No offense taken. I used to think of myself that way when I was young, but now I just consider myself someone who partially agrees with them.

I completely agree with you regarding the term "ally", but perhaps for different reasons. I am deeply skeptical of anyone who uses it because I think it's mostly used to gain status.

I think that building walls between people based on identity experiences makes people lose empathy in the long term. We forget that despite all the differences we are all human and have shared feelings and needs. However, Im not explicitly against it because it can remind us of the way we are not the same. I know it sounds like I want it both ways... I just believe balance is crucial.

she should be in jail. prison. locked up. have a sex offender flag that lets everyone know she is a dangerous person to be around.

Um... It's possible that she was the person who gave the media the greenlight to run the stories during a primary years later. The thing is that if you want the govnerment to do something... you have to be willing to work with terrible people and put your morals aside. There is no government ever made that isn't like this... at least that I have seen. The more power you give to people in government, the more they abuse it. The more the people around them abuse their power to cover for them and gain access to that power.

in a capitalist hellscape.

maybe there's a better way. maybe we are FUBAR. I can't say. 🤷‍♀️

In my opinion, human nature makes perfect systems impossible. However, we can certainly do better.

I don't think with our current culture we can move forward though. Most ancient philospophers who lived through such periods all tend to agree that wealth destroys nations, and we have been very wealthy for a very long time. So, this period should be viewed as the decline of the west. What comes next is probably outside of our lifetime, but I suspect it's a return to the normal of dictatorship, but this time ideological dictatorship.

ESPECIALLY churches and families, those places are ground zero for hiding predators.

both froth at the mouth to defend predators in their ranks but will tell victims to shut up and get over it.

I have seen that one study where people shocked a person they couldn't see that seems to show that we're all susceptible to abusing others when in power. i would think thats a great argument for restructuring power not based on plausible deniability (maybe the leader might do wrong, but we'd have to prove it) but based on the idea that people WILL abuse power and how we can keep leaders accountable with that knowledge.

To be blunt, the church faces a two fold issue. On the one hand, parishioners hold inherent trust in their leadership, and at the same time if a scandal breaks out it hurts the whole organization. My daughters mom is very active in a church, and they lost a leader to an affair with the church secretary in 2019 and it was so devastating that my daughter stayed with me for a full month while her mom helped people work through the issues from it. I think since the Catholic Church scandal, everyone has been on edge for this sort of thing.

Families... every family is different. My aunt married a pedophile and had two kids. My parents where totally unaware. They even had the guy babysit me at a time when his son was showing signs of abuse. I remember my grandmother showing up out of nowhere to collect me and bring me back to her place. I didn't understand until YEARS later when my grandmother had told me she was suspicious of the guy from day 1. Families are totally crazy.

I think leaders should be held to a high transparency standard. If we could take their presumption of innocence away that might be helpful, but it also might be used by dishonest ambitious people to take their place. Power is a ruthless game.

[–]apresonlyFeminist Woman 🌹 karma is my boyfriend 🌹 [score hidden] 1 year ago (3 children) | Copy Link

I completely agree with you regarding the term "ally", but perhaps for different reasons. I am deeply skeptical of anyone who uses it because I think it's mostly used to gain status.

yes. this is one of the main reasons i am against it. the other being that the best information will come from the people actually affected.

I think that building walls between people based on identity experiences makes people lose empathy in the long term. We forget that despite all the differences we are all human and have shared feelings and needs. However, Im not explicitly against it because it can remind us of the way we are not the same. I know it sounds like I want it both ways... I just believe balance is crucial.

if things started off equal, i'd agree with you.

but the point is that women (and other groups) were not treated equally, so we had to work together (and label ourselves) in order to describe the problem and try to change things.

Um... It's possible that she was the person who gave the media the greenlight to run the stories during a primary years later. The thing is that if you want the govnerment to do something... you have to be willing to work with terrible people and put your morals aside. There is no government ever made that isn't like this... at least that I have seen. The more power you give to people in government, the more they abuse it. The more the people around them abuse their power to cover for them and gain access to that power.

i agree to an extent. i think fixing things on a community level would work better, but the bad guys are so rich and powerful they would just trounce us.

I don't think with our current culture we can move forward though. Most ancient philospophers who lived through such periods all tend to agree that wealth destroys nations, and we have been very wealthy for a very long time. So, this period should be viewed as the decline of the west. What comes next is probably outside of our lifetime, but I suspect it's a return to the normal of dictatorship, but this time ideological dictatorship.

yeah, i agree. our culture is very very sick.

I suspect it's a return to the normal of dictatorship, but this time ideological dictatorship.

i mean trump says this is the last time people will have to vote for him, so that sounds like an ideological dictator to me.

To be blunt, the church faces a two fold issue. On the one hand, parishioners hold inherent trust in their leadership, and at the same time if a scandal breaks out it hurts the whole organization.

churches promote this tho. i literally this weekend read a church's "about me" section and the first belief they list is to assume the best of others. this is cult like and not biblical. jesus wanted people to be discerning and not fall for the pharisees bullshit, not to just believe everything religious leaders tell them.

My aunt married a pedophile and had two kids. My parents where totally unaware. They even had the guy babysit me at a time when his son was showing signs of abuse

🤮

I think leaders should be held to a high transparency standard. If we could take their presumption of innocence away that might be helpful, but it also might be used by dishonest ambitious people to take their place. Power is a ruthless game.

we put people on the moon, i believe we can figure this out

for instance, i am always fine w transparency in my relationships. there's nothing that someone (once we have built trust) could ask me that i wouldn't share with them because (while i am fallible and make mistakes and am immoral sometimes) i generally do the right thing because i want to be able to respect myself and live without the anxiety or drama of being shady.

leadership isn't for everyone and people who want to lead should be able to be transparent. i can't see how transparency would be a bad thing or even weaponized bc in elections its not a perfect person contest, it's either/or. you don't have to be a perfect human being, you have to be better than the other guy so we are comparing two imperfect human beings to each other.

[–]Jaded-Worldliness597Red Pill Man [score hidden] 1 year ago (0 children) | Copy Link

yes. this is one of the main reasons i am against it. the other being that the best information will come from the people actually affected.

There is an important human skill we are missing here. Listening to what other people say is just step one. The second step is to really do your best to put yourself in that person's shoes and see the world through their perspective while understanding and removing as much of your own bias as possible. The third step is to then be able to judge that person's viewpoint and your own from as non biased way as possible.

Most people can't even get to step 1 today, while you can see from political speeches of the past that the majority of the voting population was in step 3 until at least the 1950s.

if things started off equal, i'd agree with you.but the point is that women (and other groups) were not treated equally, so we had to work together (and label ourselves) in order to describe the problem and try to change things.

They did this in the late 1960s, by using the communist oppressor/oppressed framework to basically expand tribal thinking to a wider group. That moral framework has been the driving force of the greatest atrocities of the last 120 years. It's caused more deaths than any idea or belief structure in the last 1000 years combined. Really only the Mongol conquests come close.

It also hasn't achieved much, beyond increasingly making people hate each other irrationally. The great achievements were almost exclusively made by people like MLK jr who sat down and understood that the primary driving force behind racist descrmination was fear. This is why his non-violent approach worked amazingly well, and was able to translate into legal achievements that even today seem quite amazing.

I think people focus too much on his "I have a dream" speech and miss his most powerful and animating idea, which was that of forgiveness.

We often talk about the things of the past without a solid understanding of why people did what they did. It isn't surprising to me that they were able to take entire sections of Hitler's Mein Kampf, change german to women and Jews to men, and then get it published without issue in feminist academic journals. That should be a clear sign of a problem, but thus far no feminist has really done anything to change the situation.

i agree to an extent. i think fixing things on a community level would work better, but the bad guys are so rich and powerful they would just trounce us.

If you think of our current situation as tribal, and the people at the top of each tribe as rich, powerful bad guys... then I think you start to understand the problem more competely. Most of us are still stuck in this idea that our bad guys are good, and the other sides bad guys are horrible. Instead we should be thinking which group of bad guys would be easiest to push around once in power.

[–]Jaded-Worldliness597Red Pill Man [score hidden] 1 year ago (0 children) | Copy Link

i mean trump says this is the last time people will have to vote for him, so that sounds like an ideological dictator to me.

I hated that guy since the 1990s.

churches promote this tho. i literally this weekend read a church's "about me" section and the first belief they list is to assume the best of others. this is cult like and not biblical. jesus wanted people to be discerning and not fall for the pharisees bullshit, not to just believe everything religious leaders tell them.

How much do you know about theology? This is actually very insightful.

we put people on the moon, i believe we can figure this out for instance, i am always fine w transparency in my relationships. there's nothing that someone (once we have built trust) could ask me that i wouldn't share with them because (while i am fallible and make mistakes and am immoral sometimes) i generally do the right thing because i want to be able to respect myself and live without the anxiety or drama of being shady. leadership isn't for everyone and people who want to lead should be able to be transparent. i can't see how transparency would be a bad thing or even weaponized bc in elections its not a perfect person contest, it's either/or. you don't have to be a perfect human being, you have to be better than the other guy so we are comparing two imperfect human beings to each other

It some ways putting people on the moon is easier than dealing with human ignorance and selfishness.

I think that people are so vulnerable to propaganda and biased information that whatever solution is created must take this into account... and if you look at how the US was created, they made it crazy hard to change anything in a big way and so that it takes very large coalitions to get anything done. They also separated the powers and tried to create checks and balances. All of these things modern people hate unless it benefits their ideology.

Since I don't hope for positive changes, I just live my life the way I want and adjust what I do according to the ever changing rules. Once you understand a system it becomes easier to gain advantage within it. That is the best way to live.

I also want to say that you are a very good person. I don't know your experiences, but I suspect that you have had some rough times and it has hardened you against certain things. I understand that. I wish you the best in acheiving your happiness in this world.

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I was talking to a rabidly anti-porn woman on Reddit last night. She linked a study that showed porn was addictive but also showed all obese people are addicts and have brain shrinkage in areas of the brain involving judgment. I pointed this out to her and she said I was body shaming. It’s literally what her study she provided said. Endogenous addictions include all obese people studied and most porn consumers.

It seems to be alive is to be addicted. I don’t think we need to ban twinkies just because apparently America is filled to the brim with addicts who have shrunken brains.

But I also enjoy pornography and it’s helped my sexuality a lot. So perhaps I’m biased. Idk. I bet social drinkers would be against going back to prohibition too. I wouldn’t care because I don’t drink…well, don’t care other than the organized crime that would inevitably follow.

[–]apresonlyFeminist Woman 🌹 karma is my boyfriend 🌹 1 point2 points3 points 1 year ago (3 children) | Copy Link

She linked a study that showed porn was addictive but also showed all obese people are addicts and have brain shrinkage in areas of the brain involving judgment.

its not wrong just bc it says there are other ways to achieve the same effect?

most of our culture is deeply unhealthy and the brain is part of the body, so it is affected by us being unhealthy.

I pointed this out to her and she said I was body shaming

well thats stupid

It seems to be alive is to be addicted. I

i agree

bc our society is so unhealthy and most of us do not get our basic needs met as children, the vast majority of people need unhealthy coping mechanisms to survive and just sitting still and being alone w our thoughts is intolerable. this is kinda preachy, but a great read on the topic (he's a dead head so it's also not as formulaic as it appears based on the awful title and book cover): https://www.amazon.com/RECOVERY-2-0-Beyond-Addiction-Upgrade/dp/1401944485/ref=sr\_1\_1?

I also enjoy pornography and it’s helped my sexuality a lot.

interesting. i have actually never heard anyone say this.

could you tell me specifically what has helped? just seeing other people be into what you're into?

[–]IcyTrapeziumBlue Pill Woman 0 points1 point2 points 1 year ago* (2 children) | Copy Link

It helped in two ways:

1) introduced me to what I’m into. Like what puts me into full on sub space. I’m using a word from BDSM because it is the best description of how much of a trance like state I get into. But it’s not BDSM. It doesn’t matter what it is but it isn’t that. I don’t want sex negative feminists assuming I’m a sub “eroticizing my own oppression.” Not kink shaming here but that’s just not my bag.

2) usually I’m in the moment with the man, but if something is off and I feel like I can’t orgasm, I just flip through my mental highlights of the porn I watch and I orgasm within seconds. I only do this when something has thrown me off. I make it a habit to not do this all the time because it’s fun to be present. But once I’ve orgasmed once I’m back into the sex and can almost always orgasm again without the porn reel in my head.

I honestly think porn is why I orgasm so easily from sex. It makes me not think of myself as the object. Men are the object. I think a lot of women see themselves through the male gaze and objectify themselves. For some women that gets them off. But for a lot of women that causes anxiety and they worry about how they look.

When I hear women say “women can’t orgasm from penetration” I’m shocked. I have to hold off a bit sometimes so I don’t get sensitive too quickly. I always climax during sex since discovering porn.

eta: I don’t deny my partner’s subjectivity when I say he’s the object. The point is I’m not objectifying myself but instead focusing on him as the “object” of desire.

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Conflating pornography with the sex trade is like conflating work with slavery.

This is so bizarre, wtf do you think the “sex trade” is? I said “sex trade”, not sex trafficking, as in the entire market for sexual services.

Modern day slavery exists (think about that any time you eat chocolate since a child slave probably was involved in its production) and sexual slavery exists, but not all work is slavery.

Oh boy oh boy, Vaush is that you? This dude argued that buying a computer is equivalent to watching child porn with this exact same reasoning, do you believe that to be true? If you believe that sexual exploitation is justified by the presence of other exploitation, then you’re not actually interested in making the world a better place and can’t be taken seriously.

Plenty of pornography is made by couples at home

Cool, so what? You know you sound like the “not all men” types right?

or by feminist companies

Oxymoron. This has made literally no difference, exists in the same industry with the same market, and still clearly has no qualms sharing a webpage with the abuse and assault in question.

and plenty of sex workers aren’t abused.

Unwanted sexual contact itself is abuse, in any contact; money changing hands doesn’t make it ok, which is precisely why this industry leaves so much trauma in its wake (ask me how I know).

I’ve been a sex worker.

Cool, so have I, and it was some of the most miserable months of my life! Let me guess, you sold feet pics on OnlyFans and act like that makes you an authority on everyone else’s experiences?

When SWERFs want to tell me about my life I just nod and smile. I was always treated with respect and care.

I’ve also been an Amazon warehouse worker and it was surprisingly great, I was never made to piss in a bottle. Your point? Using your own personal anecdote to speak over others being exploited is NOT leftism at all. That is right wing bullshit. It is the same sort of “fuck you, I got mine” logic of capitalism and the bootstraps bullshit that Republicans use to justify cutting food stamps and shit. 🚮

Not all feminists are sex negative, hence the term sex positive feminism.

And I’m saying the term “sex negative” (and “SWERF”) is loaded ideological propaganda meant to frame opposition in a derogatory way. It is the equivalent of the anti-abortion crowd talking about “killing babies”.

Nothing is more “sex negative” than sexual commodification, if we are talking about consensual, enthusiastic, healthy, joyful experiences rather than simply the raw number of sexual encounters. When women are being traumatized by prostitution at rates exceeding Vietnam war veterans and young girls are getting anal tears and prolapses from their porn-addled boyfriends pressuring them into replicating the butt stuff seen on the Hub, how is any of this supposed to be “positivity” about sex? The ideology and industry you are pushing under the guise of “feminism” is directly responsible for many terrible sexual experiences and warped views on sexuality. And that is what a self-proclaimed “feminist” should be worrying about more than making it easier for men to get their dicks wet at women’s expense.

And I notice you haven’t even responded to me pointed out what socialists actually believe on this issue. I guess because you know you can’t continue your LARP. Believe what you want, just don’t pretend it is “anti-capitalist” or “leftist”, and don’t act indignant at the libs when you are one of them 🤷🏾‍♀️

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For what it's worth I agree, I think. I just don't really understand how progressives get around the exploitation and coercion of women that is inherent to all sex work without massive cognitive dissonance. It's one of the very few "progressive" things I just don't buy into, that seemingly most other progressives uncritically support. It makes me feel like a crazy person whenever it comes up. lmao

Like, it's good to want sex work to be decriminalised and regulated to protect the workers which are mostly women. That is feminist. It's another thing entirely to pretend that sex work as a concept isn't inherently harmful to all women when it's so self-evident that it is.

I understand the concept of sex positivity but I just don't think it's consistent with progressive, feminist beliefs, at least not in the real world where women and their bodies are incessantly objectified and commodified. It's like the one aspect of late stage capitalism that you're not allowed to criticise. It's just weird, and imo too convenient.

I don't think it really benefits women much if at all. If anything, it just seems to make the exploitation that is happening even easier and optically more ethically grey in a way? Because now every sick freak can cite a belief in things like sex positivity and women's (sexual) liberation and empowerment, as they coerce women into sex that they don't really want but maybe now feel compelled to engage in, exploiting them just the same as in previous decades.

I don't know. I'm not a woman, so it doesn't directly affect me apart from the people I love and my empathy and sense of justice for the other half of the world population. I just think given the patriarchal power dynamics between men and women, it's especially cringe when progressive guys like Vaush speak in favour of sex work and porn and such. I don't think it comes from a place of malice at least with him, but it just comes across as sleazy, or at best willfully ignorant. Like maybe some things should just be left to women themselves to advocate for.

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Oh I didn't say I stopped being a feminist, it's not something I can just switch off, I said I stopped being an activist in it's current version which is the most popular, at least where I live. Feel free to share of you know any Marxist feminist initiatives.

I explained my experience more here in this comment: (TLDR; most feminist movements don't seem to be Marxist but the complete opposite):

"I'm not blaming anyone for them having trauma or mental health issues and it's never the same reason.

I know exactly what you're talking about because, again, I used to be a feminist activist and spreading mental health awareness was an essential message.

However, and I'm a simple human being and that's just based on my own experiences and what I saw and encountered over the years, all I saw for the most part was women getting the message, which is great, but then they become their traumas and it's their whole personality, and because of how the whole thing is packaged they think the next big move and the solution is to marry their careers and I see them become more miserable and confused in real time.

And just to be clear, marrying your career isn't necessarily a bad thing cause people operate differently, but what's bad is if it's a shitty exploitative job, and the problem is most of these women are unprivileged, working-class women (which is probably why they needed our free services in the first place).

Also I feel like there's always a misleading blend of women's independency and individuality (which I'm completely against; individuality), and the two are completely different; you don't have to be an individualist to be independent."

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Feminism can in fact only exist in a capitalist system. Without capitalism, the labor that is overwhelmingly performed by men that keep society running can no longer be abstracted away from the relationships that women need to maintain with men. That is to say, you cannot just pay taxes for a police force to keep you safe, you cannot just hire a contractor to fix your house, and you cannot just pay a grocery store to have access to fresh food. You would have to build relationships with men that have the abilities to protect, construct, and provide, which highlights the physical inequality between men and women. This would foundationally challenge the basic tenets of feminism, which is that men and women are somehow fundamentally fungible because they are equals. But this belief would be untenable when every day women are confronted with men who are stronger than her performing labor that require strength in order to keep her alive.

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We already DID try it. Iceland had a "Women's Strike" to protest sexual violence and unequal pay, as well as to show how important women's work was to society. Paradoxically, it showed that society didn't suddenly collapse from the lack of female workers -- in fact, the entire economy just bounced back after the strike. There were strains on banks as the bank manager had to work as tellers, newspaper were unavailable, theaters shut down from the striking actresses, and men brought their children to work -- but overall there were no lasting effects from women disappearing from the workforce.

In comparison, let's theorize what would happen if all MEN stopped working for even one day. I say theorize because we can never allow this to happen -- it would cause irreparable and catastrophic damage. Some of the most male-dominated occupations are firefighter, police, paramedics, security, shipping, aviation, trucking, sewage maintenance, Internet infrastructure, water treatment, agriculture, and manufacturing, and any one of these industries shuttering for just a single day would cause insurmountable amounts of economic damage, destruction of existing infrastructure, as well as loss of life. Let's take just a light look at some of the effects:

With regards to emergency services, in California alone, for 2024 year-to-date there have been 361,691 responses by the fire department, of which 4,886 were wildfires and 2,736 were structure fires. It has been 218 days since 2024-01-01, which means on average there have been 1,659 firefighter responses every day, of which 22 were wildfires and 12 were structure fires. Can you imagine 22 wildfires and 12 buildings fires being called in, and only the 5% female firefighter force were available to fight the fires? And this is only in the state of California for one day. It would be impossible to prepare for this event across the United States even if you knew ahead of time that there was going to be a Men's Strike -- wildfires will be uncontained, buildings will burn until they collapse, and people will die.

And considering that in the United States, the police is 86.7% male and paramedics are 68.4% male, and that in California alone there are 78,000 emergency calls per day; with the overwhelming majority of emergency responders being men, it would be absolutely catastrophic if men took even one day off of work -- The number of fires, crimes, medical events, and other emergency situations that would go unanswered would cause untold amounts of economic damage and death.

And now, with regards to shipping, the majority of the world's goods are moved from port-to-port via massive container ships, and then brought to their destinations by plane and truck. The percentage of people working in the maritime sector as seafarers who are men is 98%. The percentage of pilots who are male is 94%. The percentage of truckers who are men are 90%. The majority of those doing the manufacturing are also men. The entire chain of manufacturing goods, shipping them as cargo overseas, flying them to an inland city, and trucking them to their fulfillment centers, before being delivered to a warehouse, a store, or your home, would be entirely untenable if men stopped working, essentially halting the global economy of goods and causing untold economic impact. And this is not including the impact on passenger transportation, since you would generally lose access to all forms of non-personal transportation. And of the industries that would not fail within the day, it is primarily because men have designed sufficiently robust systems with safeties and redundancies such that they do not fail without human intervention, i.e. data networks, nuclear power plants, sewage systems, etc.

So yeah, if the labor from male dominated fields just stopped one day, none of the other work matters -- because the work that is done by teachers, nurses, childcare, administrators, human resources workers, dental assistants, dieticians, secretaries, speech therapists, health informaticians, hairstylists, and medical assistants literally become valueless without the structure, security, safety, and provision resultant from male-dominated labor that provides the skeleton for a functioning society.

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There's a good reason why generally women don't become loggers, oil riggers, soldiers, firefighters, construction workers, carpenters, etc

Because the men in them go out of their way to make the jobs more dangerous for themselves and the women. Male soldiers rape their sisters-in-arms. Male Firefighters terrorize the females.

And even of the tools we have, who do you think invented, manufactured, and utilize those tools?

Men and women. Like this woman, these ones, these ones, etc.

Kevlar, circular saws, central heating, fire escapes (you know, to make firefighters jobs easier?), chemotherapy, the vast majority of the backbone of computer software, the vast majority of the backbone of wireless transmission software, some used variants of rocket fuel, molecular sieves, way more space-related physics and science than I am able to count, many different parts of trains (especially parts that make them quieter and safer), solar thermal storage.

Given that women are basically the primary inventors of computers and wireless software, with most of the male inventors just being whatever one or two random men on the team get the credit over the women, and the fact that the vast majority of hard labour jobs require computers to run the big fancy machines... or even before computers, animal husbandry (what we used before the big fancy machines) was mostly done by women...Sure, some man probably slapped his name on "Crawler Crane", but most inventions are made up of a combination of things invented by men and things invented by women.

It's not a competition. It's a group effort. We work best when we work together. There's a reason we don't use brute strength as our line in the sand of value as a human- we're physically weaker than most other animals of a similar mass to us. Our strength comes from our ability to work together. If we never worked together, we wouldn't have "Crawler Cranes".

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I'm saying that capital allows you to abstract the higher physical labor of men into a monetary amount that obfuscates how disproportionately men are the ones keeping society afloat on the level of security, infrastructure, and provision. The lopsidedness of how much men have to do was historically always understood, but now Karen in her HR office sitting in a climate-controlled administrative building thinks her job is worth more than the men who actually constructed her HR office from wood and metal because she gets paid 4x more than he does.

Market forces that dicate where money goes is not proportional to the actual criticality of a job to society. So while the entire world would ground to a halt if all of the top male-dominated jobs just stopped working (sailors, truck drivers, powerlinesmen, sewage workers, etc.), the amount of money and respect that men receive for the work that they do is incongruent in comparison with the women whose jobs' existence are being subsidized by the men. After all, where would nurses work if men didn't manufacture every piece of equipment in the whole building? Where would teachers work if men didn't construct the entire school from the ground up? And where would HR Karen work if men didn't keep the electricity running to her air conditioner? All of this nuance can only be lost in the presence of capital, where women think they don't need men while their entire livelihood is subsidized by male labor.

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can you link us to or mention a feminist and what they are arguing for that you are against?

women are bigger consumers bc they generally do the grocery shopping/all the shopping for their household.

men spend more on themselves, women spend more on their family.

"In comparison, male vs. female shopping statistics from Capital One show women do shop more than men, but 89% claim responsibility for daily household shopping compared to 41% of men. Plus, it found the average millennial male spends 59.9% more on clothes and shoes than his female counterpart.

Research from market data firm Gitnux echoes this, finding men more likely to make impulse purchases than women, with 54% compared to 45%. It also found women spent less on alcohol, footwear and electronics while spending more on groceries and personal care items."

https://www.scrippsnews.com/life/money/do-women-spend-more-than-men-untangling-gender-based-money-myths

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I'm not blaming anyone for them having trauma or mental health issues and it's never the same reason.

I know exactly what you're talking about because, again, I used to be a feminist activist and spreading mental health awareness was an essential message.

However, and I'm a simple human being and that's just based on my own experiences and what I saw and encountered over the years, all I saw for the most part was women getting the message, which is great, but then they become their traumas and it's their whole personality, and because of how the whole thing is packaged they think the next big move and the solution is to marry their careers and I see them become more miserable and confused in real time.

And just to be clear, marrying your career isn't necessarily a bad thing cause people operate differently, but what's bad is if it's a shitty exploitative job, and the problem is most of these women are unprivileged, working-class women (which is probably why they needed our free services in the first place).

Also I feel like there's always a misleading blend of women's independency and individuality (which I'm completely against; individuality), and the two are completely different; you don't have to be an individualist to be independent.

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Title	Do you think "women supporters" in general place you somewhere you don't even want to be in?
Author	Own-Opportunity4100
Upvotes	0
Comments	116
Date	August 6, 2024 2:31 AM UTC (1 year ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/PurplePillDebate
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/1el6i0c/do_you_think_women_supporters_in_general_place/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/PurplePillDebate/do-you-think-women-supporters-in-general-place-you.1526469 https://theredarchive.com/post/1526469

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