"Man Child"

YetAnotherCommenter · 2013-03-02T04:38:17+00:00

"Man child" is just a form of gender policing.

For men, "grow up" and "man up" are relatively similar demands. This is because gender roles were influenced by how people perceived and interpreted biological maturation. Women's biological maturation was relatively obvious - breasts grew, hips filled out, mensturation began and the young woman could start bearing children. Girls, in short, just "became" women. Male biological maturation, however, isn't as physically obvious, and any specific man's ability to perform the socially-prescribed gender tasks is far less biologically assured than any specific woman's ability (relevant article of mine - http://www.reddit.com/r/masculism/comments/11w04k/separating_the_boys_from_the_men_male_heirarchy/ ).

Being called a "man child" is being called a "boy" is being gender policed. The terms are equivalent - for men, maturity is something proven and demonstrated through complying with the social demands placed upon the man. Earning one's maturity is earning one's socially-accepted manhood.

Females, on the other hand, naturally become "real women" (i.e. able to fulfill society's accepted female gender role, which is motherhood) with the passage of time. They don't have to earn it.

So yeah, the "man child" thing is just sexist gender policing. If you don't "start being responsible" (which seems to be defined as "getting married and having kids and devoting all your time to career advancement") you aren't being a good hunter-gatherer-provider and thus aren't being a "real man."

It really shows how deep these assumptions are rooted in our culture - we (correctly) jettisoned the assumption that a woman's natural place is barefoot and pregnant, but we're still living with the near-unquestioned assumption that a man's natural place is spending most of his time making money which in turn is mostly spent on people other than himself.

But yes, I share your frustration at phrases like "man child" (or "boy" as a form of contemptuous address). They're no more than gender policing. But from an intellectual perspective they are quite illustrative of our society's gender role origins.

chocoboat · 2013-03-02T00:31:20+00:00

This is a really good point and I'd say it's worth adding to the "list of the ways in which men are discriminated against." that's in the sidebar.

"Man child" has turned into an insulting term that gets used against men who openly admit that they have an interest in things like video games and sci-fi, instead of either shamefully hiding, or having society-approved manly interests like sports and music.

Women with the same interests? They're cheered for doing what they want despite it being a mostly male territory. They're not children, they're young at heart!

I don't mind the term man child being used when appropriate- for someone who doesn't grow up, doesn't have a job and can't support himself, etc. But it's getting used way too often as a stupid insult lately.

n0t1337 · 2013-03-02T01:16:01+00:00

You know, this to me just reifies the ideas of female hypo agency and neoteny. Men can't act like children because we have obligations, or at least we should have obligations, to women and children. Trying to use the term woman child would be meaningless, as they're lumped in with the children anyway.

tyciol · 2013-03-02T03:19:22+00:00

I also hate this term. There is something to be said about a lack of "womanchild" or whatever insults among the ladies.

Honestly there really is no defining thing that adult men should like or not like, just like there is no defining thing that male minors should like or not like. Same with ladies and young girls.

The whole 'insult the manchildren' thing is pretty much in line with the "grow a pair" and "man up" insults. I think these are also levied by guys who tend to be insecure to some degree and want to elevate themselves by putting others down via pointing out how others are inferior.

When we look at guys on the top of their respective game like Anderson Silva, he happily admits to being a superman fan. Guys like John Cena, though they will engage in sexist rhetoric to get a rise out of the audience, will (OOC, during interviews) admit to being fans of anime.

I'm glad there are shows out there like Comic Book Men that help show the human side of this, especially since everyone but oldbeard all have a spouse, showing comic guys can have relationships.

Heck, one of these days I'll even get around to watching a fansub of Hello Kitty and possibly enjoy that. Not right now because well... it just isn't one of the more appealing series out there, but I'm not going to rule it out because it's not manly. I have enjoyed some Pokemons and Digimons and Dragonballs and Sailor Moons in my day.

Part of this I think is because men are supposed to like utiliarian things. Stuff like carpentry, competetive sports or fighting, working. Things generally based on stereotypical things, often including providing for women.

Engaging in fantasy is generally only tolerated if it's a father catering to a child's wishes. Consider for example that commercial for Doritos where the men play tea with the guy's daughter so they can get some of the cheesey chips: this is only accepted because of the appeal to gluttony (a thing we embrace as manly indulgence) and parental involvement.

But if these guys were simply having tea on their own, or heaven forbid, wearing dresses or letting anything else take priority over a game of tackle football, they would be persecuted for it. Women having tea is considered cultured. Men having tea generally a source of high-class comedy (Frasier) or only tolerated if it's some kinda badass like Sean Connery playing that guy in League of Extraordinary Gentleman (ie he has to shoot a bunch of armored machine gunners to compensate for the tea).

Datz I think there might be some tricky but happy medium behind the accepting of the term and the taking issue with the term and the ignoring of the term.

I haven't mastered it yet, but basically we don't utterly ignore it (that looks defensive too) but try not to let it make a huge splash, contradict it by example, and embrace our passions but not that these passions are inherent to children.

One thing I suggest we not do is focus to excess on 'manning up' a hobby. For example, pointing out how people get killed in Batman comics so 'batman isn't for kids'. That's defensive and insecure, and it ignores that stuff like Batman is about more than that, and we won't convey this to people simply be whining about how it's got adult aspects. People can find this out for themselves if they want to, and if they don't want to, they will find ways to ignore sensible arguments and take potshots.

Greyfeld · 2013-03-02T03:50:15+00:00

As a 27 year old male who enjoys video games, anime, star trek, star wars, urban fantasy novels, Magic: The Gathering, Dungeons & Dragons, and other such "nerdy" pursuits, I understand where you're coming from. I've struggled with this in the past, and I'm sure plenty of other men and boys have as well.

And so, as somebody who is experienced in this area, I feel it's my responsibility to point out that you have a third option - grow thicker skin.

It's currently socially acceptable for people (not just women, but other men as well) to disparage males over their hobbies and interests. Until that changes, your best approach is to pretend that it doesn't bother you. I prefer going the path of owning the comments, usually by saying something like, "What can I say? I'm a child at heart!" and giving them a saccharine smile to illustrate how little their shit bothers me. There are other methods, of course, but I've found that owning their commentary tends to throw them off and discourage continued verbal abuse.

Obviously, this is easier said than done, and I wish that it was something we didn't have to resort to. But it's the best of a bad set of options, and it's something I would suggest you practice for the foreseeable future.

rightsbot · 2013-03-01T23:54:18+00:00

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Super_delicious · 2013-03-02T00:48:45+00:00

My husband is a man child meaning he's a kid at heart. That's why I love him, he's a big cuddle kid a lot of the time. I don't see how that's bad.

The_Cockpit · 2013-03-02T00:54:27+00:00

Fuck em. If they don't respect your Simpsons figures Star Wars memorabilia and Xbox, show em the door. Try hookers. They can work out cheaper, there's more variety and they tend not to be so judgemental.

Zuke88 · 2013-03-02T04:15:35+00:00

this insult "man child" is something ironic for me, because its based off the assumption that being a "child" is a bad thing; or in the words of C. S. Lewis: “Critics who treat 'adult' as a term of approval, instead of as a merely descriptive term, cannot be adult themselves. To be concerned about being grown up, to admire the grown up because it is grown up, to blush at the suspicion of being childish; these things are the marks of childhood and adolescence. And in childhood and adolescence they are, in moderation, healthy symptoms. Young things ought to want to grow. But to carry on into middle life or even into early manhood this concern about being adult is a mark of really arrested development. When I was ten, I read fairy tales in secret and would have been ashamed if I had been found doing so. Now that I am fifty I read them openly. When I became a man I put away childish things, including the fear of childishness and the desire to be very grown up.”

here we have the same situation; anyone who uses the term "man child" as an insult (regardless of gender), is immature themselves....

sanity · 2013-03-02T00:15:53+00:00

The accusation of being a "man child" is a loaded question in disguise: answer in the affirmative, even sarcastically, and one has accepted the label as interpreted by one's adversary. Answer in the negative and one is put on the defensive by denying it.

The best option is to ignore the accusations; here, the winning move is not to play.

johnmarkley · 2013-03-02T04:12:20+00:00

"Man child" is on my list of terms that I use to filter out people who aren't worth engaging with. It's like "mansplain" or "jewsmedia"- it's not impossible for someone who uses it as an insult to actually have something of value to say, but the odds are sufficiently poor that it's not worth the time and energy it would take to find out.

Nomenimion · 2013-03-02T05:06:52+00:00

Ironic that society continues to scream at us to "man up!" -- while simultaneously removing all incentives for us to do so. Why "man up" when you're just going to get mauled by our feminist-informed legal system, precisely because you tried to be responsible?

Just look at men who make the mistake of getting married to an all-too-typical selfish, greedy woman! They end up in child support purgatory because they decided to "man up."

nicopolitan · 2013-03-02T05:08:48+00:00

Just playing devil's advocate here, but is there a similar social implication with "man child" as with the term "girly girl"? I think possibly it could.

Note: speaking as a dude

TheCameraLady · 2013-03-02T10:36:31+00:00

Man Child implies a male who is physically an adult but not mentally, with the side-implication that traditional adulthood is a positive thing.

With men stepping away from marriage (and some even from women in general due to a lack of reproductive control), this leaves a lot of women who want to marry and reproduce in a bind. How do we get men to return to the table? Either offer incentives to do so, or offer detriments in not doing so. Modern neo-feminists have chosen the latter option, and one of the many ways in their multi-pronged attack is the demonization of anything considered not traditionally adult in the male population. The thought is that, if those childish impulses and behaviours are removed, the male population will finally grow up and take their place within marriage (as long as the woman wants him in that place.) Hence things considered traditionally immature like scifi, videogames, etc? Accepting them is damaging towards the ultimate goal, and the shaming tactic of "Man Child" is born.

It's a tiny cog in a very large machine, though.

Maschalismos · 2013-03-02T18:01:07+00:00

I think you guys are missing the real point of the insult. "man-child" is ANY man who is not devoting his resources, time, and essence into becoming a willing pack mule for a woman.

In a woman's eyes, if your work doesn't directly benefit a woman, it isn't work at all, and you are just playing. THAT is the point of 'man child'

2013-03-03T03:45:10+00:00

As a wise man once said, "When a boy becomes a man, it it time to put away childish things, such as the fear of being thought childish by others."

tyciol · 2013-03-02T02:47:29+00:00

Right off the bat, "Fuck them" is the right response. You might ask "Why?" This is what is called 'the red pill' and it will show you reality. Notice that they have no real criticism outside of calling you names. This is called shaming language and women use it in an attempt to force men into subservience. If you think this is extreme, consider that you yourself spend your money on YOU and not HER. You can guess what her preference is.

What you have really discovered is that most women are disagreeable, if not actually hateful. This is unvarnished feminism. Why else would they want to deliberately hurt your feelings? Women are pretty wretched creatures and societal damage is how they inflict their hate and discontent.

Find a nerd chick, put her in the baby business and have a happy life going to scifi conventions.

subzero_600 · 2013-03-02T02:49:03+00:00

You have to look at the people who are throwing the terms around. The ones that seem to o use the term "Man child" seem to mostly be women who are turned off by the concept of men that enjoy past times that are typically classed as nerdy and geeky. Turning that around to the women that take even a passing interest in those past times, the reason men seem to chase after them is simple; get rejected for your hobbies often enough and you start seeking out people that share even a remote liking of the same things.

Cosplay just comes down to what they wear. A lot of them are rather revealing and anytime a woman wears somthing revealing, there is another to call her a slut behind her back. Warranted or not.

Workchoices · 2013-03-02T02:57:08+00:00

Their thinking is because you are wasting your time and money on games and shit instead of recreational activities that will help you meet a woman, or at least make you more desirable if you do run into one e.g sports.

You are also ( according to them) being selfish by spending time and money on yourself instead of "maning up" finding a woman to worship.

Keep doing your own thing mate, ignore the remarks. A man who ignores others and persues his own happyness is very desirable to some types of women.

Fogwa · 2013-03-02T04:32:52+00:00

Dude, life is too short to try to please others. The desire to conform to norms in order to find happiness is just something that we have all been socialized into. It's just an idea. It is not real. It only feels like it does if you let it. I suggest you move to a major city, you'll find plenty of people who understand you. It's the law of large numbers.

Don't let the term offend you.

In my mind, as long as you:

Are financially independent of the government.
Commit no crimes.
Stay politically active (simple as staying informed, and voting in major elections). Our political system is designed to be an activist democracy.
Contribute a portion of your income to to a noble cause (child hunger, ending cancer, etc.)

Then you are a model citizen, better than the vast majority of your fellow Americans. Hold your head high. Don't let other people get you down...because they don't approve of your hobbies!

thetrollking · 2013-03-02T11:43:05+00:00

Manchild basically just describes someone who has abandoned, for the most part, the male gender role/sex role.

The reason it has become a trope is due to the fact that society needs men to be disposable for society and women.

HDATZ · 2013-03-02T02:35:05+00:00

I always thought a man child was a dude that is just huge for his size. Like high school football prospects that are ripped as fuck and 18 years old or something like that. I've actually never heard it used like you describe, thanks for this!

sagashiteiru · 2013-03-02T03:43:22+00:00

you say "man child", i say "child at heart". It all depends on how you look at it ;)

coffeeinvenice · 2013-03-02T04:21:00+00:00

The only way that trading card games, card collecting, comic books, action figure collecting, playing video games, liking Sci-Fi or Fantasy, etc., could be described as 'man child' activities is if the person indulges in them (particularly computer games) to the extent that they become a substitute for having a social life or start to affect one's job. Other than that, shaming people for having these hobbies is just an attempt to devalidate men by devalidating what they like.

Men have ALWAYS liked collecting certain things and playing certain games, even if as commercial products they are/were originally directed at sales to children. Think of baseball cards, model airplanes, high-end small model cars. And since surgeons and soldiers play some computer games, these can hardly be called 'childish'.

Crimson_D82 · 2013-03-02T08:12:18+00:00

This is just women bitching because these things take attention away from them. "Stop playing that stupid card game and do things for meeee!"

DougDante · 2013-03-02T12:15:22+00:00

You wrote: "There's no winning there, either. You either accept the term and become an emasculated, seemingly undesirable nobody, or you take issue with the term, and you are then either "throwing a fit," "can't handle the truth,""

The winning move is to not to interact with people who demean you and don't respect your feelings.

luxury_banana · 2013-03-02T21:09:43+00:00

Basically the complaint is that you aren't out there toiling to generate resources that someone can steal from you.

2013-03-03T20:54:24+00:00

Any man spending time on his own interests and hobbies and not providing for women will be shamed by feminists who realize that without men, they have almost no money.

audiomodder · 2013-03-04T21:54:17+00:00

so i might be in the minority, but there is a "man child", but it's not what you've described.

there are a group of men that go to work, come home, watch tv/play video games and that's it. this group of men rely on a woman to do everything in the house. i know, my father was one. both he and my mother worked a full time job, but she got off work, picked us up from daycare, got home, cooked dinner, did dishes, cleaned the house...while my dad watched tv all night after getting home.

my dad is a "man child". and i intend to not be him.

GODZILLA_BANKROLL · 2013-03-05T07:44:29+00:00

call them out for having "princess syndrome"

probably the closest equivalent

Diogenes33 · 2013-03-02T13:37:00+00:00

You're right that a woman should also be called "woman child" (or something similar) when she does the childish things you mentioned.

You either accept the term and become an emasculated, seemingly undesirable nobody, or you take issue with the term, and you are then either "throwing a fit," "can't handle the truth," or must obviously have a complex of some sort or another.

Or you grow up.

Title	"Man Child"
Author	HDATZ
Upvotes	63
Comments	98
Date	March 1, 2013 11:52 PM UTC (13 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/mensrights/comments/19hsmq/man-child/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/man-child.1607315 https://theredarchive.com/post/1607315

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