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Meta cross post: Should we, the moderators, start moderating posts that use clickbait style titles in order to improve the quality of submission titles?

sillymod

November 23, 2014
41 upvotes
/r/MensRights

Discuss on /r/MensRightsMeta!

http://www.reddit.com/r/MensRightsMeta/comments/2n5tdt/should_we_consider_moderating_to_improve_the/

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Post Information
Title Meta cross post: Should we, the moderators, start moderating posts that use clickbait style titles in order to improve the quality of submission titles?
Author

sillymod

Upvotes 41
Comments 74
Date November 23, 2014 12:09 PM UTC
(11 years ago)
Subreddit Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link https://old.reddit.com/r/mensrights/comments/2n5tif/meta-cross-post-should-we-the-moderators-start-/
Archive Link https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/meta-cross-post-should-we-the-moderators-start.1623247
https://theredarchive.com/post/1623247
Top posts by sillymod

False flag efforts going on

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Actual censorship of /r/MensRights

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Offsite MensRights

227 upvotes
September 14, 2013
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Lots of trolling going on...

220 upvotes
June 16, 2014
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They don't seem to understand that lying about us actually drives visitors here.

214 upvotes
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A reminder that feminist care ethics states that "rules, rights, universality, and impartiality" are MALE ways of thinking that oppress women.

212 upvotes
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RoK and RooshV are not part of the Men's Rights Movement. Posts about their activities are removed from this subreddit as being irrelevant.

202 upvotes
February 4, 2016
/r/MensRights

Comments

[–]DaNiceguy14 points 11 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

It's up to the community to police itself in this regard. Members need to take some responsibility for what they upvote and downvote.

[–]XGC753 points 11 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

I don't see this style of policing improving journalism in the digital age. My intuition tells me it won't improve content here, either.

[–]Maartarder1 point 11 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

http://i.imgur.com/7qpGaTy.jpg

[–]DougDante5 points 11 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

No, because they work.

This. This so much has received a net of over 3,000 upvotes, made it into /r/all and probably the front page, and caused much consternation among our friends in /r/againstmensrights (see: "/r/mr shirtpost hits /r/all". do not vote there. No, I will not link)

Don't click on them if you don't like them.

Also, as a moderator of different subreddits, this is just another thing I don't want to deal with.

[–]5th_Law_of_Robotics6 points 11 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

As long as AMR is upset there is a good chance you're doing the right thing.

[–]JayBopara3 points 11 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

AMR must have amongst the most indoctrinated and ignorant people out there. Just read their side bar:

Due to MRA tactics of harassment, intimidation, and violence, we strongly urge readers to take measures to protect their personal safety before engaging with MRAs.

I guess their definition of harassment, intimidation and violence is disagreeing with someone. Funny, that's the same definition of "violence" feminists use if it's a man disagreeing with a woman.

[–]5th_Law_of_Robotics6 points 11 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Also they actually doxxed a guy. He told a rape joke so one of their mods stalked him in real life, doxxed him to reddit and his business associates, used their mod mail to spread the information around.

And they were all fine with it. The admins eventually had to step in and ban the offending mod. Who they immediately remodded after she returned with an alt (the admins got that one too but it doesn't scream "honest acknowledgment of wrongdoing").

So be careful with them. Don't give them any info to go on or they will dox you if you ever get in their bad graces.

[–]FallingSnowAngel2 points 11 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

And they were all fine with it.

Except those of us who clearly weren't. I took a vacation from AMR, because of it, and there was a thread about the issue posted by someone else...

And it was more than a rape joke - he forced his ex-girlfriend into sex, and described her tears after. He forgot to mention that they were both okay with this kind of edgeplay - what a hilarious joke.

I can see why it would appeal to your sense of humor.

Fortunately, his ex raised Hell over on AMR - she should have been contacted, before anything happened. The response to her, telling her that she had no right to define her experience, compared to a complete stranger, and then banning her, was shitty - it was AMR at it's worst.

And I'm still not okay with it.

But you can't just stick with an accurate report of it all, can you? There's karma calling you.

[–]ZorbaTHut5 points 11 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

I took a vacation from AMR, because of it

"I was so offended I left for a bit, and someone posted a thread. And then I came back. The end."

I can see that this incident shook you to your very core.

[–]5th_Law_of_Robotics3 points 11 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

So outraged that he laid low till things had settled down then came back like nothing had happened.

That's the harshest condemnation of their behavior I can think of.

[–]FallingSnowAngel0 points 11 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

I came back, because the MRM reminded me why I needed to vent in the first place.

[–]ZorbaTHut2 points 11 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

I left, but then I remembered I liked being there, so I came back.

Look, I've heard person after person after person tell me that (insert incident here) is such a damning situation that everyone should have left this subreddit and never returned. And here's a similar damning situation - so bad that you left! For days! (Maybe. Maybe it was shorter.) And then you came back 'cause you really liked the subreddit.

If the tables were turned, you'd probably be telling me that coming back to the subreddit was implicit agreement with the techniques used. Now, I don't actually think it was - but I do think this is a perfect example of the double standards applied to us versus you.

When members of our community do bad things, and we don't dump the group, it means we're awful people. When members of your community do bad things, and you don't dump the group, it's totes OK 'cause you really needed to vent.

And it's probably our fault anyway for being literally figuratively literally literally Hitler.

[–]FallingSnowAngel-1 point 11 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Actually, I've been completely consistent in arguing that the MRM ought to be doing more for men, and here's as good a place as any.

Meanwhile, your sidebar still links to the asshole who doxxed a whole bunch of women in order to scare the shit out of them. Curious, those double standards you seem to hold....

One man done wrong equals how many women?

[–]ZorbaTHut2 points 11 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

That's a hell of a subject change, yo.

Also, keep in mind I'm not saying you should have left that subreddit. I'm saying you're hypocritical for not doing so. I actually don't think the actions of a single person represent the whole, but that's one of the major AMR talking points.

[–]FallingSnowAngel0 points 11 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

So, basically, you're saying you don't blame me for the actions of others, even as you call me a hypocrite for the actions of others?

It's curious, over in AMR, I went out of my way to acknowledge what I like about Doug Dante, compared to way too many posting in this subreddit, while criticizing his post in this thread. I've even pointed out posts I like from The Pigman, as shocked as I am when that happens.

And I can even observe when a shit post is being downvoted by you guys, or the top commentors are calling bullshit on clickbait. I defend good arguments from the MRM with my life, even if I don't always like how they're presented.

But for folks who claim to be outraged by the whole "anti-feminist equals anti-women" argument, you're really quick to use my anti-MRM beliefs to just throw whatever you can imagine at me. It's a handy way to dismiss any criticisms I've ever made, I'll grant you...

But the hypocrisy is still disappointing, all the same.

[–]ZorbaTHut2 points 11 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

So, basically, you're saying you don't blame me for the actions of others, even as you call me a hypocrite for the actions of others?

Do you believe the actions of small numbers of a community reflect on the community as a whole?

Because if so, then yes, I'm calling you a hypocrite for your unwillingness to apply your beliefs onto yourself.

If you don't then you should be aware that you're hanging out with a bunch of people who do.

But for folks who claim to be outraged by the whole "anti-feminist equals anti-women" argument, you're really quick to use my anti-MRM beliefs to just throw whatever you can imagine at me.

I don't think I've once mentioned whether you like the MRM or not. To be frank, I don't really care.

But the hypocrisy is still disappointing, all the same.

Please demonstrate where I've been a hypocrite. If you can, then I'd like to stop being one. But I don't think you can.

[–]FallingSnowAngel0 points 11 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Do you believe the actions of small numbers of a community reflect on the community as a whole?

No. But I do believe that it's okay to worry about the influence some of those members have over the direction of the community - this thread providing examples. Or, if you prefer criticism of AMR, part of the reason I've been invited to stay in the subreddit, by members of AMR, was to call out the things I've seen which aren't okay - when empathy fails for people like me.

Because it will. We're all human.

Where I see hypocrisy, is that from the beginning, you've argued the MRM subreddit's anti-feminist jerk is completely different from what AMR is doing. Can't sign a petition, threads about serious men's issues are a grave yard, but it's all over finding flaws in /r/feminism, a subreddit so feminist, that there's a feminist subreddit dedicated to giving a place for banned feminists to complain about the patriarchy they've got going.

You also enjoy the "No True Scotsman", an awesome trick where feminists are responsible for repeatedly denouncing other feminists, without a handy list of everyone that needs denouncing, because that single word, feminist, means a 2nd wave sex negative TERF and a sex positive 3rd wave intersectional just have so much in common.

Way more than the redpill and this subreddit, no matter how many popular super hero cross overs occur, right?

These beliefs may not be outright hypocrisy, and may even bring up good arguments from time to time, but they're more convenient than they are intellectually sound.

[–]ZorbaTHut2 points 11 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

But I do believe that it's okay to worry about the influence some of those members have over the direction of the community

I agree. I don't think anyone's saying otherwise.

Where I see hypocrisy, is that from the beginning, you've argued the MRM subreddit's anti-feminist jerk is completely different from what AMR is doing.

Eh? Where have I done that? Can you give me a quote?

You also enjoy the "No True Scotsman", an awesome trick where feminists are responsible for repeatedly denouncing other feminists

Yes, I think it's important that people are willing to recognize bad people in their community. And I'm willing to acknowledge that there's some serious assholes in the men's rights movement.

Will you do the same for feminism?

These beliefs may not be outright hypocrisy, and may even bring up good arguments from time to time, but they're more convenient than they are intellectually sound.

It's not hypocrisy if I hold everyone to the same standard. Even if it's a standard you personally disapprove of.

[–]FallingSnowAngel0 points 11 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Eh? Where have I done that? Can you give me a quote?

One of our earliest arguments. Neither one of us was at our best, and we're both downvoted throughout the thread for it. At one point, we just give up on debate entirely and rewrite each other's words, while abusing caps.

A single quote would be cherry picking. Here's the link.

Yes, I think it's important that people are willing to recognize bad people in their community.

Of course.

But.

Do you know how many millions of feminists there are? You're claiming feminists are a united community, because we share a single word between us, and we're anything but. Do you make Unitarians apologize for the Pope? For each of the cardinals, the bishops? Where does it end?

Feminism is like the manosphere. How many names in the manosphere could I spring on you, if it had existed for the past hundred years or so?

will you do the same for feminism?

Show me the feminists you want me to denounce?

[–]ZorbaTHut2 points 11 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

A single quote would be cherry picking. Here's the link.

The point I was making there is that the MRM subreddit's anti-X jerk is small compared to a subreddit that was literally built for being an anti-X jerk. I wasn't saying that the mere existence was somehow fundamentally different.

I will also point out that you're the one who started criticizing circlejerks. Personally I don't think they're intrinsically awful. Not really a great way to get discussion done, but sometimes you don't really care about discussion.

If you hate circlejerks then maybe you should stop participating in them?

You're claiming feminists are a united community, because we share a single word between us, and we're anything but. Do you make Unitarians apologize for the Pope? For each of the cardinals, the bishops? Where does it end?

To be blunt, yes; if someone calls themselves a Christian, and at some point the actions of the Pope come up, I'm going to ask if they support the actions of the Pope. If they say "well the Pope isn't a real Christian" then I'm going to be very skeptical of that claim.

Feminism is like the manosphere. How many names in the manosphere could I spring on you, if it had existed for the past hundred years or so?

Probably a lot. And I could say "yeah, that person was a member of our group, but awful". I've noticed a curious refusal to do so with feminists; it's either "they're not a real feminist" or "they were just misunderstood" or "look over there, a three-headed monkey".

That's what I'm referring to with the no-true-scotsman issue. Criticism is dealt with, not by admitting there's a problem, but by claiming the person isn't really a feminist. In that light, "feminist" seems to be defined as "person who agrees with me". There's no need to ever recognize fault in a feminist because if there was a fault then they wouldn't be a feminist.

Show me the feminists you want me to denounce?

Any that you consider worth denouncing. I'm leaving the choice up to you.

Are there any?

[–]FallingSnowAngel0 points 11 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

The point I was making there is that the MRM subreddit's anti-X jerk is small compared to a subreddit that was literally built for being an anti-X jerk.

And my counterargument was that looking at the comments revealed upvoted posters trying to steer the conversation back to anti-feminism, with very little effort to turn all of this into something more constructive, or helpful to the men in need.

I will also point out that you're the one who started criticizing circlejerks. Personally I don't think they're intrinsically awful. Not really a great way to get discussion done, but sometimes you don't really care about discussion.

It's a problem when they claim to be something more than a circlejerk. If this was honest enough to call itself /r/antifeminist, I wouldn't keep coming back to break the jerk.

I meet too many in the MRM who think lies like "feminists don't believe in male rape" are sacred truths. And when they're told feminists hold all the cards, that nobody gives a shit if they die...

That's toxic as Hell.

To be blunt, yes; if someone calls themselves a Christian, and at some point the actions of the Pope come up, I'm going to ask if they support the actions of the Pope.

Yes, but that's not what's happening when I interact with the MRM. It's more like asking someone whether they agree with Fred Phelps, asking them why they haven't denounced every Christian in the streets, and not caring enough about Unitarians, despite the presence of Google nearby, to know they can't stand Fred Phelps, or vice versa.

At some point, I, as a feminist, and more important, someone with basic pattern recognition, assume you're intelligent enough to know that if I'm a male rape survivor who keeps talking about the need for male rape survivors to be recognized - I don't agree with the assholes who say a man can't be sexually assaulted.

And I'm a potential ally, on the issue, even if that offends you.

If you need to ask the question anyways, at this point, it's because you want to reduce me into the other, and turn me into the enemy. In which case, you can go fuck yourself.

Show me the feminists you want me to denounce?

Any that you consider worth denouncing. I'm leaving the choice up to you.

Are there any?

Sure. Right now, in what I'm reading. [Mhari] (http://clarissasblog.com/2012/02/21/and-this-is-yet-another-example-of-feminist-writing-that-annoys-me/) compares raping a man to kids forced to endure relatives kissing them. Gotta love that old time 2nd wave gender essentialist hate - many of the zombies still live, sucking out the souls of the unwary, and telling them they loved it. While shouting feminist slogans, no less.

Rape culture really needs an exorcism...

[–]ZorbaTHut2 points 11 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

And my counterargument was that looking at the comments revealed upvoted posters trying to steer the conversation back to anti-feminism, with very little effort to turn all of this into something more constructive, or helpful to the men in need.

I guess I don't see your point. Yes, jerks exist, and some of those jerks are trying to make this subreddit as bad as AMR. What are you trying to get at?

It's a problem when they claim to be something more than a circlejerk. If this was honest enough to call itself /r/antifeminist, I wouldn't keep coming back to break the jerk.

You realize it's possible to have more than one kind of discussion in a subreddit at a time, right? And that if your argument is "circlejerking sometimes occurs therefore the entire community is perpetually a circlejerk" then every community in the history of humanity is a circlejerk?

Yes, but that's not what's happening when I interact with the MRM. It's more like asking someone whether they agree with Fred Phelps, asking them why they haven't denounced every Christian in the streets, and not caring enough about Unitarians, despite the presence of Google nearby, to know they can't stand Fred Phelps, or vice versa.

And if apparently every Christian either pretended Fred Phelps wasn't a Christian, or claimed Fred Phelps was just joking, or got totally offended and called me a Christian-hater when I mentioned the existence of Fred Phelps, then I'd probably treat them differently. Thankfully, Christians don't do that.

It's amazing how few feminists I meet who can hold themselves to that lofty standard.

And I will admit that it's kind of a problem that feminists are being asked to prove that they're not "the other kind of feminist". Unfortunately, this is what happens with labels; if you associate yourself with a label, and lots of people with that label become toxic, then you're going to have a harder time demonstrating that you're not toxic. Same thing happens with the MRM.

I personally think this is kind of an unavoidable aspect of identity groups and mental shorthand. But if you think it's bad and worth trying to fix, tell people in AMR to stop grouping up all MRAs based on the actions of a small number of very loud people. See how well that goes.

At some point, I, as a feminist, and more important, someone with basic pattern recognition, assume you're intelligent enough to know that if I'm a male rape survivor who keeps talking about the need for male rape survivors to be recognized - I don't agree with the assholes who say a man can't be sexually assaulted.

Tribalism isn't that simple. There are plenty of people who seem to change their beliefs based on who's saying it.

Sure. Right now, in what I'm reading. Mhari compares raping a man to kids forced to endure relatives kissing them. Gotta love that old time 2nd wave gender essentialist hate - many of the zombies still live, sucking out the souls of the unwary, and telling them they loved it. While shouting feminist slogans, no less.

Thank you.

[–]5th_Law_of_Robotics1 point 11 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Can you denounce the feminists at AMR who support doxxing and who mocked male victims?

If you are allowed to criticize them please do so. By name.

[–]5th_Law_of_Robotics0 points 11 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

And I guess we have our answer.

[–]5th_Law_of_Robotics2 points 11 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Funny that you never feel the need to vent over AMR doxxing men and laughing at male abuse victims.

[–]FallingSnowAngel0 points 11 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

doxxing men

Doxxing one man, months ago.

laughing at male abuse victims.

When they think it's a false accusation, same as men's rights. And you're really going to claim I don't vent then, when you placed decent odds on me being banned for it? Still, overall, they have a better track record supporting male survivors than this subreddit does.

But it's okay - you guys are just trying to nuke everyone faking sexual assault triggers - who has time for basic human empathy?

[–]5th_Law_of_Robotics5 points 11 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

When they think it's a false accusation, same as men's rights.

Er, don't you guys call MR a rapist lobby and pack of literal rapists for questioning claims?

That's rhetorical. We both know you do.

And you're really going to claim I don't vent then, when you placed decent odds on me being banned for it?

So you're ok with their misdeeds because they will ban you if you disagree. What a principled stand.

Still, overall, they have a better track record supporting male survivors than this subreddit does.

Blatantly false.

But it's okay - you guys are just trying to nuke everyone faking sexual assault triggers - who has time for basic human empathy?

Empathy for who? People faking being a victim? Why should we have sympathy for them?

[–]FallingSnowAngel-1 point 11 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Empathy for who? People faking being a victim? Why should we have sympathy for them?

Right. Only fakers exist in your mental universe. I guess it's okay to minimize any men you harm, even identify them as the enemy, if they fit a certain profile...

Wow, that sounds familiar.

This is why AMR does a better job of showing empathy than you do. They just don't regard sexual assault triggers as big shiny red buttons they need to press.

Most of civilization got past that stage long ago - it's considered psychological abuse/torture, these days. If you absolutely need to use it, indiscriminately, sorry....you're not the good guys.

[–]5th_Law_of_Robotics2 points 11 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Right. Only fakers exist in your mental universe.

I swear you've circle jerked yourself retarded. Reread your comment. You were specifically talking about fakers.

This is why AMR does a better job of showing empathy than you do. They just don't regard sexual assault triggers as big shiny red buttons they need to press. Triggers are a joke now largely because of people like those at AMR using them passive aggressively in increasingly absurd ways. That's on you.

[–]FallingSnowAngel0 points 11 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

No, I said you guys are trying to nuke any and all fakers. If you needed me to spell the human consequences of that mentality, that's...really not a surprise.

You lack intuitive empathy. Thank you for the practical demonstration.

[–]5th_Law_of_Robotics2 points 11 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

No, I said you guys are trying to nuke any and all fakers.

You've yet to demonstrate why fakers deserve sympathy.

Also: your thoughts on SJWs turning triggers in to a joke by over/misuse?

[–]FallingSnowAngel0 points 11 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

You've yet to demonstrate why fakers deserve sympathy.

Let me dumb it down for you, again.

You're not just attacking the fakers, and you very clearly don't give a shit.

[–]5th_Law_of_Robotics1 point 11 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

You're not just attacking the fakers,

Citation needed.

Also are you able to admit that people who misuse trigger warnings, people primarily on the SJW side if things, Ste doing a disservice to those who actually need them?

[–]eletheros2 points 11 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

it was AMR at it's worst.

So it was a Tuesday.

[–]5th_Law_of_Robotics3 points 11 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Yeah pretty normal behavior for them actually. Difference was this time they got attention from outside their sub.

[–]ArchangelleDwarpig1 point 11 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

So it was a Tuesday day that ends in "y".

FTFY

[–]5th_Law_of_Robotics2 points 11 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Except those of us who clearly weren't. I took a vacation from AMR, because of it, and there was a thread about the issue posted by someone else...

You went back and never really criticized it. So that just looks like you were laying low till things settled down. Have any mods apologized for their role in this?

And it was more than a rape joke - he forced his ex-girlfriend into sex, and described her tears after. He forgot to mention that they were both okay with this kind of edgeplay - what a hilarious joke.

Actually she initially started stalking him over a fresh prince copypasta.

Fortunately, his ex raised Hell over on AMR

And was banned. Remember that?

  • she should have been contacted, before anything happened.

Why?

The response to her, telling her that she had no right to define her experience, compared to a complete stranger, and then banning her, was shitty - it was AMR at it's worst.

And again you are tacitly endorsing this.

And I'm still not okay with it.

Can you link to the posts you've made in AMR since condemning it?

But you can't just stick with an accurate report of it all, can you? There's karma calling you.

My report is quite accurate. You just retconned some things so you'd look better.

And with the exception of swore, who had to be removed twice by an outsider, aren't all those AMRers who supported it still around and in good stead? List the ones who were banned by the AMR mod team for supporting that.

Since AMR is a circle jerk not being banned implies community support.

[–]FallingSnowAngel1 point 11 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Actually she initially started stalking him over a fresh prince copypasta.

That was another part of it, yes.

Fortunately, his ex raised Hell over on AMR

And was banned. Remember that?

Since I even wrote about it?

she should have been contacted, before anything happened.

Why?

Because you don't act in someone's name, without even asking them a single question.

And again you are tacitly endorsing this.

By saying the exact opposite? Curious, that kind of behavior has won me bans elsewhere.

So, do you tacitly endorse everything this subreddit does? Do you tacitly endorse everything every subreddit you post in, does?

Or does AMR have special rules? I'm sure I can count on Men's Rights and AMRsucks for an objective opinion on the matter.

You've noticed I disagree with them quite often, whether or not you agree with me still disagreeing with you, as well.

dig up old drama for my popcorn

I'll pass.

[–]5th_Law_of_Robotics1 point 11 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

That was another part of it, yes.

Funny how you omitted that part. That is reminiscent of how swore deliberately omitted the punchline to drum up a virtual lynching if this guy. Can you acknowledge now that this is the joke I was referring to?

And was banned. Remember that?

Since I even wrote about it?

Doesn't speak highly of your peers does it?

Why?

Because you don't act in someone's name, without even asking them a single question.

But you guys knew the answer you wanted. Asking questions only dilutes the outrage. Moral crusaders have a responsibility not to allow themselves to be corrupted or distracted with facts.

By saying the exact opposite? Curious, that kind of behavior has won me bans elsewhere.

You're mildly criticizing it here. Over there where it matters you say nothing.

So, do you tacitly endorse everything this subreddit does? Do you tacitly endorse everything every subreddit you post in, does?

Not everything done in the sub, the stated beliefs of all the mods.

Swore wasn't a lone nut acting without approval despite your attempts to rewrite it. She was fully supported by that sub.

Or does AMR have special rules? I'm sure I can count on Men's Rights and AMRsucks for an objective opinion on the matter.

AMR is a circle jerk. If you aren't banned that means the community agrees with you. And swore was never banned by the community.

You've noticed I disagree with them quite often, whether or not you agree with me still disagreeing with you, as well.

You half assedly disagree then throw in a lot more nonsensical attacks on MR and men to compensate.

dig up old drama for my popcorn

I'll pass.

No need to substantiate your claims I guess.

[–]guywithaccount-1 point 11 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

No, because they work.

Ends and means?

[–]5th_Law_of_Robotics0 points 11 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

The bit being cited there is perhaps not the most intellectual debate but it's not spreading falsehoods.

Feminists have made great advances for their cause spreading outright lies in clickbait form. Is it so wrong to counter that with accurate clickbait links?

[–]guywithaccount-1 point 11 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

If clickbait is wrong, then clickbait in the service of a desirable political end is wrong. If clickbait isn't wrong, then complaints about feminist clickbait are hypocrisy.

More to the point, though, clickbait is annoying. If some part of the MRM wants to wallow in it, that's fine - but don't look for me there. How many /MR readers would you like to drive off, and how low do you intend to set the level of discourse? Have you considered just starting a Tumblr?

[–]5th_Law_of_Robotics3 points 11 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

If clickbait is wrong, then clickbait in the service of a desirable political end is wrong. If clickbait isn't wrong, then complaints about feminist clickbait are hypocrisy.

Clickbait isn't right or wrong. It's probably not the most sophisticated way to get a message across but really all it is is something simple that appeals to a lot of people. Thats advertising.

Using it to spread lies as feminists do is wrong.

How many /MR readers would you like to drive off, and how low do you intend to set the level of discourse?

Are you really driven away by the occasional post that you can ignore?

And setting too many restrictions on what is allowed will definitely drive people off. I'd rather scroll past a few low effort posts than turn in to a circlejerk like feminist subs.

[–]guywithaccount-1 point 11 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

And setting too many restrictions on what is allowed will definitely drive people off. I'd rather scroll past a few low effort posts than turn in to a circlejerk like feminist subs.

We're talking about requiring people to generate titles that are descriptive and reasonably accurate, not policing speech. Did you forget?

If someone can't figure out how to write a title as good as "another female statutory rapist slapped on the wrist" or "Challenges to Title IX" or "falsely accused of rape, need help" then they probably shouldn't post new threads.

[–]5th_Law_of_Robotics2 points 11 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

We're talking about requiring people to generate titles that are descriptive and reasonably accurate, not policing speech. Did you forget?

The problem is that A) that is policing speech and B) that is entirely subjective.

I've seen sensible enough rules used to create a circle jerk before.

[–]guywithaccount-1 point 11 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

The problem is that A) that is policing speech

No it's not - it's establishing minimum standards.

If I scribble a typo-laden rant about UFO people on a used napkin with a crayon and mail it to the editor of the paper and it doesn't get published, that's not censorship.

and B) that is entirely subjective.

Gee, well, good thing we're people and not robots!

I've seen sensible enough rules used to create a circle jerk before.

And do you, in your considered opinion, believe that the mods of /MR are going to abuse a requirement for substantive titles in order to turn /MR into a circle jerk?

Jesus, man. Put the keyboard down until you've had a warm mug of perspective.

[–]5th_Law_of_Robotics0 points 11 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

believe that the mods of /MR are going to abuse a requirement for substantive titles in order to turn /MR into a circle jerk?

Do you believe that without this rule MR will collapse in on itself?

[–]guywithaccount-1 point 11 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

How many /MR readers would you like to drive off, and how low do you intend to set the level of discourse?

[–]5th_Law_of_Robotics2 points 11 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

How many do you believe have been driven off by the lack of such a rule?

It's easy enough to predict doom and gloom if you don't get your way. Proving that will actually be the result (especially since it hasn't been) is a bit more tricky.

I could just as easily ask how many you want to drive away by creating a rule that allows arbitrary removal of comments among a demographic that values free speech very highly.

[–]guywithaccount-2 points 11 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

How many do you believe have been driven off by the lack of such a rule?

Impossible to say; that information's not available. But if the increase in clickbait represents a trend, I know of at least one who will be.

Also: why can't you answer the questions? How many /MR readers would you like to drive off, and how low do you intend to set the level of discourse?

I could just as easily ask how many you want to drive away by creating a rule that allows arbitrary removal of comments among a demographic that values free speech very highly.

All the ones who can't write a proper title. Exactly that many.

Although if it drove off one more who can't tell the difference between a requirement to give threads substantive titles and free speech violations and who thinks that the mods will use this opportunity to institute anti-free speech policies that turn /MR into a circle jerk when they've never done that before even though they totally could have all along, I'm starting to think that might be alright.

Also, no one is talking about removing comments.

[–]5th_Law_of_Robotics2 points 11 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Impossible to say; that information's not available.

But you're claiming this will be the case.

But if the increase in clickbait represents a trend, I know of at least one who will be.

And if they start arbitrarily censoring posts I will definitely leave.

So right now it's a net neutral.

Also: why can't you answer the questions? How many /MR readers would you like to drive off, and how low do you intend to set the level of discourse?

Because it's a dishonest question.

Why can't you answer my question: How many /MR readers would you like to drive off, and how low do you intend to set the level of open debate?

[–]guywithaccount-2 points 11 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Because it's a dishonest question.

I think you've got dishonest confused with inconvenient.

Why can't you answer my question: How many /MR readers would you like to drive off, and how low do you intend to set the level of open debate?

Well, I answered the first part in my previous post - check the edit - and the second part doesn't make any sense, so I can't answer that.

[–]5th_Law_of_Robotics3 points 11 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

I think you've got dishonest confused with inconvenient.

No it's dishonest because you're starting with a conclusion that isn't necessarily based on reality.

How many puppies are you willing to kill to enact your rule?

Why can't you answer my question: How many /MR readers would you like to drive off, and how low do you intend to set the level of open debate?

Well, I answered the first part in my previous post - check the edit -

I suppose I could reply in kind: if not being able to remove posts you don't like drives you away, eh I can live with that.

and the second part doesn't make any sense, so I can't answer that.

I think you've confused "doesn't make sense" with inconvenient.

[–]ThePigmanAgain5 points 11 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

As annoying as i find those fucking things, if they work, they work.

[–]rg575 points 11 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Yes. This is long overdue. The title should say SOMETHING about what the content actually is.

[–]superstevelive4 points 11 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Yes.

[–]konous3 points 11 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

I have no problem with us reviewing and even commenting on shit that is "click bait" because honestly, we need to stay informed of the perception the Feminist movement is trying to paint us as.

On the other hand, I don't like giving their advertisers cash, so I'll say that we should put http://archive.today/ in the side bar and maybe some new rule that anything that could be deemed as Click Bait needs to be either used with the Don't Link or Archive.

[–]sillymod1 point 11 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

I think that you aren't understanding the issue here.

This is not whether we should link to clickbait articles (like those published by Buzzfeed and Gawker sites, among others), but whether we should allow our users to write titles in the form of clickbait, uninformative titles.

[–]therealmasculistman2 points 11 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

What is clickbait?

[–]ImNotIntoPokemon2 points 11 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

You won't believe the answer to your question!

[–]therealmasculistman1 point 11 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Thanks for clearing that up.

[–]modern_rabbit2 points 11 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

If the article is good but the title is misleading, should that be an upvote or downvote?

[–]genmischief2 points 11 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

I think that would be pretty time consuming to filter and enforce.

So much content that flows through here IS provocative and click-baity.

[–]funk1001 point 11 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

I am totally in favor of increasing the moderation of this subbreddit. Its subscriber base has grown significantly, and the maturity of the overall subreddit has taken a hit.

Most of the high quality larger (100k+) subbreddits use some form of moderation against clickbait-style posts, and mensrights is no exception. It comes down to how we as a community want to evolve: be popular with more clickbait style posts (as /u/DougDante has illustrated the popularity of such posts), like /r/gaming, or less popular, highly moderated, and high quality like /r/Games.

[–]deathdragon58581 point 11 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Hard choice to make really. I can see the arguments for both as valid. I guess the real question would be what do we want? Do we want way more attention? If so that would involve clickbait in this idiotic world unfortunately. Also, would have to be more twit style, as many people can't be bothered to read more than a few sentences at a time, let alone a full blown article......

[–][deleted]1 point 11 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

It would be a pretty good idea. An article that calls attention to itself wouldn't need clickbait, so quality of posts would be increased.

[–]Hamakua2 points 11 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Disagree. A lot of the meat and potatoes of the MRM is very dry reading. It goes to the issue of conventional wisdom vs. Concision.

What's the law? To find the right answer on the internet post a wrong answer? "Clickbait" titles are read just as much because people want to call bullshit on the content as much as they want to see the drama. The biggest clickbait title of the few years? "Obamacare".

[–][deleted]1 point 11 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

I agree. Actually, upon reaching further in the thread, I meant to delete that comment I made earlier and I forgot to

[–]JohnKimble1111 point 11 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

The best improvement that could be made to this subreddit is for some guidance to be issued for how to submit posts about hateful content.

We shouldn't be giving all our traffic to organisations who make money out of misandrist click bait and instead the content should be archived so we can still read it without giving them traffic or improving their Google rank.

If the content allows comments then that's not so bad as we can at least potentially challenge the misandry, but I see zero value in linking to hate content which has no commenting allowed.

[–]sherpederpisherp1 point 11 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Yes. We should promote acccuracy and being factual. Circlejerking may feel good, but it doesn't get things done.

[–]intensely_human1 point 11 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

I don't really like clickbait as a phenomenon, but I would like to point out that it is very hard to define. One man's clickbait might be another man's informative title.

So my vote would be to leave this type of decision to the filtering process of upvoting/downvoting. Create a culture in which people will tend to downvote clickbait, or highly reward someone who re-posts clickbait without its clickbait title, and let the voting system take care of it.

It would be a little nice to not have clickbait, but it would be horrifying to think that moderators are using such a squishy, ill-defined concept as a filter to delete posts without our even being aware of them in the first place.

[–]StarOfAthenry1 point 11 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Yes, please. This subreddits feels, like most of reddit, as if it is trending to less valuable content.

[–]Deansdale-2 points 11 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Nope.

[–]freemale101-3 points 11 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

No.

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