On LTR game and positive beta behavior. (Understanding the pluralistic mating strategies of women).

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July 9, 2014

Anybody who follows what I write over the past 6 months would notice that I've been focusing on beta game recently, and have been publicly denouncing using the term "beta" as a pejorative, because the behaviors themselves are not inherently bad.

Why have we focused on alpha so much recently?

The tides have turned in our culture, shifting the sexual marketplace to demand more alpha qualities, and leaving anybody following the family provider life-plan in the dark, often doomed to a failure he will not recognize the cause of. But this is not necessarily due to the beta behaviors, but instead the betafication of the male, and the staunch misunderstanding of proper usage and correct timing of beta behaviors.

Rollo has written extensively about these shifting tides, but to paraphrase: the push in the west to allow women to fully realize their hypergamy while simultaneously failing to anticipate their future needs has rewarded the alpha to the detriment of women's own long-term mating strategy to look for providers.

Our reaction (or overreaction as it might seem) has been amping up the alpha to 11, and reaping the rewards. But these rewards are fleeting and I believe leave much to be desired- spinning plates can fulfill your sexual needs, but doesn't address men's desire to start a family, or find a life-long partner.

Now, before I begin I will start with a disclaimer. I believe that the marketplace has changed in such a way that regardless of what men want, long-term monogamy may very well be a pipe-dream, and the legal climate may have changed to the extent that the hope of starting a family is all risk and little payoff. I will not look past the fact that women have sufficiently changed the market to everybody's detriment. And no matter how much you may want some of the things I'm about to discuss, there may not necessarily be an option to get them. Nevertheless, the conversation should take place, because I don't see much about it here, and I've spend the past half of a year studying this in great depth.

Women's mating schedule

For those who have not yet read Rollo's series on Preventative medicine, you need to start there. This is absolutely crucial information that cannot be skipped. Anybody wishing to learn about the red pill needs to fully grasp female schedules of mating and related strategies. Rollo's series is the most thorough analysis of women's mating strategies, and the timeline thereof that I've ever seen, you will all do well to read it.


Part 1 | Part 2 | Part 3 | Part 4

Rollo has always focused on women's pluralistic mating strategy, colloquially phrased on this forum as "alpha fucks, beta bucks," but more kindly explained as women's need for obtaining the highest quality sperm for her offspring (alpha), and her need to provisioning to take care of her young (beta).

Women will seek out both behaviors, and optimally will try to find both in the same man. This can be seen when women try to tame the bad-boy. They've already obtained the alpha fucks, and will eventually try to tame him into the beta bucks (often unsuccessfully), and will eventually "mature" into a refined taste in men and end up with a man who is a much better provider to take care of her and her alpha-spawn.

Women will "settle" for a beta male, after riding the cock carousel- or after optimizing her strategy to obtain alpha fucks, but failing to obtain the beta bucks. The reason this is more common today, I believe, is that the matriarchy has not passed down the knowledge to women that they should be attempting to satisfy their beta bucks strategy during their peak, and they only realize this far too late- something previous generations of women did not suffer from.

We typically refer to women riding the carousel as sluts and consider them to be poor quality stock for long-term-relationships. And while many criticize us for this as "slut shaming" it holds true in a very real sense for men: Women who are settling down after the cock carousel may resent their "settling" afterwards- having not optimally found a combination of alpha and beta qualities in one male. Settling with a woman in this stage puts you at a disadvantage- she is an alpha widow, and you are the beta bucks. You will not gain her respect, and will most assuredly be in second place in her mind to the men she preferred to fuck (and still would be fucking had her looks not began to fade).

This problem exists because women in our culture have been encouraged to explore this portion of their sexual strategy with no holds barred, and with no understanding of their future needs nor the immediacy of their requirement to fulfill them. They've been lied to about their peak sexual market value and will formulate a less optimal strategy because of it.

So how does a man capitalize on women's pluralistic mating strategy?

Obviously, as a reaction to this change in the market, we've embraced alpha qualities to the exclusion of beta qualities. We see men embracing beta qualities and chastise them for it, as it appears sub-optimal given the current market.

But is there no other option?

Well, as I mentioned before, the answer to this might be no, or more likely it depends on your local market. But let's say for example that there were women who were either raised with a better understanding of their mating needs and timeline, if such a woman existed, when would be the optimal time to strike, and how would be the optimal way to do so?

These are the questions I would like to answer in a search for the long-term relationship.

When to strike?

First it needs to be said that women will be open to certain traits based on where they are in their schedule. Beta traits will be a positive for you when women are seeking them, but a hindrance to you if they're not. (sidenote, if they're not looking for beta traits, you are barking up the wrong tree for LTR). That said, it would be poor advice to aim for women in our culture who are in beta-seeking mode when they typically get there... approaching and after the wall.

Instead, consider when a woman is young. I've heard a lot of people on here go on and on about how they don't think a younger woman is "experienced enough" to carry on conversations or debate philosophy. But the fact is, you're looking for an optimal mate, not a guy friend. Women will grow and mature as the years pass, and you can learn to connect and have conversations. It is crucial that you begin the journey with a woman who has not yet been alpha-widowed, and has not passed her prime... for your own success. These are the important elements to look for if you wish to succeed at long-term-relationships.

I personally feel as though 21 is too late to begin with a woman, as she will have began to go to bars and recognize her sexual power and feast on the validation that thousands of thirsty dudes will give her. At this point, she is lost to the carousel, you will never compete for her fleeting and quickly-averted attention, as no single man can. You can recognize this in a woman when her attitude begins to change, she will act more experienced, or weathered. She will wear her experience as a badge, but it will sour her attitude. She will adapt more masculine behaviors and begin to self-handicap at this point, indulging in cigarettes, tattoos, and other risk-seeking behavior. Women may also begin to adopt a bold, careless, often bitchy attitude, getting rough around the edges. These are not good signs for a long-term investment, as these signify at what point she is at, and should warn you to stay away.

Before this point, you may find women to be more feminine- more soft spoken, kinder, gentler, and generally more pleasant.

How to strike?

With both alpha and beta game. As has been mentioned multiple times in this post and in the past- women want a combination of alpha qualities and beta qualities.

The alpha qualities that are important are most important during the attraction phase. Piquing her interest via game, dodging shit tests, and a generally cocky attitude is important. But the girl that you are looking to land in an LTR may require a slightly different approach, and may respond slightly differently. If she has an active interest in securing a long-term mate, she may be turned off by too heavy of alpha behavior, she may actually recoil at overt alpha behavior. While I do not believe making this mistake will hurt her actual attraction to you (gina tingles are gina tingles), she may have the self control to steer clear of somebody she believes to be a bad-bet. She may recognize over alpha qualities as too risky for her, and she may actually pass, or increase her compliance testing to ensure that you actually present long-term provider potential.

A woman who is actively looking for a mate will be testing for compliance. Now, we typically refer to compliance testing and shit testing as the same thing-but in the context of long-term mate selection, I will put forward that there is a stark difference, and that difference is the intention for which the test is given. While women will test an alpha's mettle by giving him shit tests to see if he fails to comply, a woman will test a man's potential to provide by testing his compliance and see if he intends to provide.

In this context, you should recognize compliance testing for what it is and learn to pass them while maintaining frame.

Your goal is to boost comfort and the feeling of security, but do not lose your alpha frame- as she is looking for both.

Some ways to accomplish this are to embrace Athol Kay's Captain/First mate dynamic. When a woman acts out, or throws a compliance test, it's important from an alpha standpoint not to be submissive, while from a beta standpoint you want the outcome of the compliance test to encourage her feeling of security- which is why she threw the test in the first place.

If a woman throws a compliance test, the best way to approach it is not to validate her test with a reaction (anger, surprise, validation, etc), but instead to take a proactive approach that establishes dominance, shows that you will not be manipulated by a test, but shows compassion and your willingness to lead.

For example, after initial attraction is established:

"You probably flirt like this with all the women..."

Alpha response: "Only the hot ones!" (Boost alpha frame, create insecurity)

Alpha+Beta response: "Only when I feel like it, and today I feel like flirting with you." (Maintain alpha frame, boost security)

Failed response: "Oh, no, I swear I don't. Only you m'lady!"

In this example, you haven't lost your frame, but you've put a little extra emphasis on making her feel good. You're communicating that you can flirt with others, but you've chosen to flirt with her. I wouldn't recommend proceeding with all tests like this, but pepper it in maybe 1/5 of the time to help her feel the security she's craving. She will try to full-on betatize you, and you don't want that. But going full alpha will also send her looking for a new branch to swing to if she's in beta-seeking mode.

A proper alpha-beta mate will maintain his frame but appear gracious and intentional with his affection. He is important, high status, and busy, but he wants to direct his affection towards his woman because he has decided that is how he will proceed. He does not seek validation from a woman, but instead validates his woman with a proactive, not reactive, form of affection to boost security and comfort while never communicating subordination.

It's important to take note here that a strictly beta male is submissive and subordinate, but that an alpha that adapts beta traits is not.

I will need to revisit the definitions of these terms in our glossary, because we have been using beta incorrectly. Beta traits are indeed important to embrace when women are seeking a provider. Alpha traits are important to embrace when women are seeking either sex or a provider. Beta is not bad in and of itself, but instead describes a list of provider traits. When not couples with alpha traits, beta traits are bad and communicate subordination. When coupled with alpha, you have yourself perfect long-term relationship material.

Good luck gentlemen.

As an aside, I will be adding a new LTR flair to the sub for more discussion on LTR game.

Post Information
Title On LTR game and positive beta behavior. (Understanding the pluralistic mating strategies of women).
Author redpillschool
Upvotes 247
Comments 71
Date 09 July 2014 04:11 PM UTC (6 years ago)
Subreddit TheRedPill
Link https://theredarchive.com/post/17711
Original Link https://old.reddit.com/r/TheRedPill/comments/2a8yu0/on_ltr_game_and_positive_beta_behavior/
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Red Pill terms found in post:

[–]Summertime_Dimes89 points90 points  (12 children) | Copy

To expand a little from personal experience, I think the ideal frame in an LTR is essentially "I can have whoever I want, I am choosing to spend time with you so long as you are worth my time." I never give the impression that I "will love you forever and ever no matter what happens." That is hippy-dippy feel good beta bullshit of the highest order.

Generally, I make it clear that I am willing to play by an established set of rules for an LTR so long as those rules ensure that we are BOTH satisfied and having our respective needs met. The other day a married guy hit on her. Ensued a conversation with me about cheating, and I said "his wife probably stopped fucking him, what is a guy supposed to do?" Seriously though, if a husband decided that he didn't like cheese anymore so HIS WIFE didn't get to eat cheese ever - she would be fucking pissed. And that is just stupid cheese, not sex - which is goddamn essential to functioning as a rational male.

She drops a classic shit-test "oh so if a wife doesn't feel like having sex that makes it ok to cheat?!" I said "no but it makes it ok to get a divorce. A woman who won't fuck her husband is not honoring the spirit of her marital vows and the partnership dynamic. She is making a decision affecting both people without taking into consideration the needs of her partner and is therefore being a bad wife. He should leave her fucking ass." I made my opinion crystal clear, and signalled to her that fulfilling sexual needs is an essential requirement. LTR did that thing where she pretends to be offended, offers easily rebuttable counter-arguments, and ultimately says she hadn't thought about it that way and she thinks I am right. I never backed off my position, and did not fall for that weird straw-man bullshit that they do.

Then she was super sweet and sent unsolicited naked photos...

Hold that frame, gents.

edit: words

[–]Lord_NShYH20 points21 points  (3 children) | Copy

Hold that frame, gents.

Yes. I turned my marriage around using that same frame.

[–][deleted] 20 points21 points  (1 child) | Copy

It's always refreshing to hear men on here say they've turned their marriage around with the help of TRP/game essentials. Gives hope for the future.

[–]Lord_NShYH0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Thanks! I am naturally pre-disposed to the 'Dark Triad', but full on darkness isn't the most sustainable strategy. So, I have had to randomly through in a dash of beta here and there. However, I make sure I choose when and how that glimmer of beta comes through only to be followed up with some more alpha behavior.

So far, the situation has greatly improved.

[–]Senior ContributorRedPope27 points28 points  (7 children) | Copy

"oh so if a wife doesn't feel like having sex that makes it ok to cheat?!"

Always convert hypothetical tests to specifics. When a woman poses a hypothetical scenario, she isn't philosophizing, she is concealing. Blow away all pretense by answering directly.

"Yes, if you cut me off, I will cheat. If you violate the contract, there is no contract."

Ever notice how a political candidate never answers a hostile question? Instead he just goes straight to whatever message he wants to deliver.

Reporter: "Any response to the allegations that you gave government contracts to your campaign donors?"

Candidate: "Thank you for allowing me to address that. I believe unemployment is biggest issue facing our economy, and that is why job creation is my campaign's top priority. My comprehensive plan to blah blah blah..."

Do not let her establish the boundaries of the conversation. In the example above, I ignore the slippery "wife doesn't feel like" bullshit, and re-frame the issue much more specifically: "if you cut me off." My rules, my terms, my boundaries.

[–]Modredpillschool[S] 10 points11 points  (1 child) | Copy

Do not let her establish the boundaries of the conversation. In the example above, I ignore the slippery "wife doesn't feel like" bullshit, and re-frame the issue much more specifically: "if you cut me off." My rules, my terms, my boundaries.

Well said, ♂

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[–]TRP VanguardJP_Whoregan1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

It is often said that he who controls the language controls the debate, and this is a great example of it. "Abortion" vs "Baby Murder", "Climate Change" vs "Global Warming", "Undocumented Worker" vs "Illegal Alien", "Homeless" vs "Bum", etc, etc. The very point when your counterparts get you to start speaking their language, you're operating in their framework of control.

[–]Summertime_Dimes2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy

I see the distinction you are drawing and it is a good one. I am not going to get married, so my views on a whitholding or cheating wife are all academic. My personal views differ slightly in that I don't feel like cheating is excused in a withholding scenario. I think separation and divorce are both warranted, so that was the position that I took.

I agree that when another party violates a contract, performance under that contract is excused, so no judgment. My preference would be to split up before looking for new ass but opinions vary. Appreciate the response, chief.

[–]∞ Mod | RP Vanguardbsutansalt2 points3 points  (2 children) | Copy

"Yes, if you cut me off, I will cheat. If you violate the contract, there is no contract."

♂ I agree 100%. I've said similar, that when sex is withheld you're by definition no longer in a monogamous relationship as monogomy is predicated on the social contract of having a sexual relationship with only one partner at a time. If there's no sex then it isn't monogamy.

[–]throw8way00 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

bsutansalt, this is throw8way0. Enjoy the orangered. It makes a nice change to the red.

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[–]veggie_girl29 points30 points  (0 children) | Copy

The effective self-improvement approach I see here is similar to what the military does. If you haven't had success with women, completely tear down your old self. Redefine yourself as purely alpha, and then throw in only the essential beta traits if a LTR/Family is your goal. The 4/5 Alpha and 1/5 beta analogy in the OP is excellent.

[–]TheRationalMale.comRollo-Tomassi28 points29 points  (4 children) | Copy

You may want to read this post before you put too much emphasis on over playing your Beta traits:


Up the Alpha

I’ve written this before, but it bears repeating: for men wanting to change their lives and relationships, working up from Beta to Alpha is a far tougher road to hoe than tempering Alpha dominance with a personalized touch of Beta. […]

It is a far better proposition to impress a woman with an organic Alpha dominance – Alpha can only be a man’s dominant personality origin. There is no Beta with a side of Alpha because that side of Alpha is NEVER believable when your overall perception is one of being Beta to begin with. This is why I stress Alpha traits above all else. It’s easy, and endearing to ‘reveal’ a flash of Beta sensitivity when a woman perceives you as predominantly Alpha. If your personality is predominantly Beta, any sporadic flashes of Alpha will seem like emotional tantrums at best, character flaws at worst.

Women may love the Beta, but they only respect the Alpha.

80%+ of men are Betas, and /or subscribe to a blue pill conditioning. Their problem isn't being a more calculated Beta in order to capitalize on women in their Epiphany Phase. Their problem is believing that their provisioning capacity is in any way arousing to a woman.

[–]1PaulRivers102 points3 points  (2 children) | Copy

I think the the OP is saying almost exactly the same thing as what you quoted.

[–]Senior ContributorRedPope14 points15 points  (1 child) | Copy

He is, but Rollo correctly points out that:

  1. Most of us will have a far, far more difficult struggle reaching and maintaining alpha dominance. Climbing the mountain is hard. Taking a couple steps down from the peak is trivial.

  2. If she needs it, she will hamster her own beta image for you, whether you provide it or not. She will invent some reason to justify her attraction. "You don't know him like I do. Deep down, he's really nice!"

I've made similar arguments when guys worry they'll go too far when imitating dark triad traits. Consciously changing your personality is incredibly hard. Most people fail, even when assisted by doctors and medication. Making a true and lasting change will take all your focus and drive. If you go past your comfort zone, stepping back is a lot easier.

I'd even go as far as arguing that most of us are starting so low down the mountain, burdened with a lifetime of beta indoctrination, that our accidental and subconscious slip ups will provide more beta proof most women will ever require.

P.S. Everyone really needs to read the links redpillschool and Rollo posted. It is brilliant stuff, and includes some post-graduate level thinking that 99% of TRP has barely scratched.

[–]Modredpillschool[S] 10 points11 points  (0 children) | Copy

I would agree with the assessment that it's better to err on the side of alpha than to mistakenly do what Rollo's saying-

"If your personality is predominantly Beta, any sporadic flashes of Alpha will seem like emotional tantrums "

So, what we're talking about in this thread is certainly not beginner stuff- and I wouldn't recommend it to anybody who hasn't already learned to spin plates. But once you do, and you learn the downsides to being uncompromisingly alpha, you learn that you do need to scale it back a little to make a relationship work.

Women who are seeking betas will fuck you, but eventually move on if they don't feel they can sufficiently betatize you.

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy

Marriage should be about genuine love and affection. Much of the expression of love in a relationship i.e. thoughtfulness, kindness, generosity, selflessness, sacrifice, etc I believe is what you are describing as beta sensitivity

In my own anecdotal experience is that exhibiting these behaviors in an honest way can spur on and enhance sexual intimacy. Of this I am quite sure.

However, it must be exhibited in the proper rational context. If the man exhibits these behaviors outside the proper context then he's going to get a very unfavorable reaction from his wife.

How a man conducts his life, how he earns a living, how he interacts socially with others, his display of wisdom and intelligence, how he takes care of himself physically, his ability to limit the intrusion of others - the very effort which he puts into his own life - plays a heavy role in a man's more serious romantic relationships.

I often preach self respect and state that respect is something that a man gives to himself. The foundation of self respect is built upon the choices he has made both historically and in the present day to day life of the man. He demonstrates to every person in his sphere the level of respect he should command in the actions he takes. How a man conducts his life serves as an unspoken method of communication to others of what his boundaries are.

A man who has built himself the proper foundation and demonstrates rational self esteem and self respect while effectively setting the proper boundaries with the people in his life can show genuine love and affection to his wife without much concern for a loss in relationship status.

It's often repeated that women are sexually attracted to masculinity, strength, confidence, wit, efficacy and of course physical attractiveness.

If a man were so inclined to live his life out as a bachelor then all he would need would be these things.

However, in marriage things things only take a man so far. Marriages have to last indefinitely (or at least they should). In order for a lifelong partnership to exist, security and trust must be very solid between the partners.

This is when thoughtfulness, kindness, generosity, selflessness, sacrifice, etc becomes important. If a man truly loves the woman he marries then giving in such a manner is not contrived. It's easy.

A married man needs to have the alpha's strength and the beta's capacity for love. He needs to know when these things can be appropriately applied/exhibited.

It's a treacherous landscape out there for the contemporary man.

The wisdom that it takes to comprehend these things and make them work is not something that can be easily assumed.

That's why sometimes marriage is hard and prone to failure.

[–][deleted] 28 points28 points | Copy

[permanently deleted]

[–]Modredpillschool[S] 6 points7 points  (1 child) | Copy

Think of it this way: Alpha is the lure, beta is the reward. Display Alpha to change her behavior, display beta to encourage more of that kind of behavior in the future (when she gets it right). At an instinctual level, she will feel that she is training you in beta behaviors, but you've flipped the script.

Spot on assessment.

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[–]bleh3210 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Great point.

To bring it down to simplistic levels for LTR

  • Alpha to change behaviour = Withdraw attention
  • Beta to encourage behaviour = Give attention

Always withdraw attention from your plate/LTR/wife/mistress/slut/cow if she displays bad behaviour/disrespect

[–]ManowaR148824 points25 points  (6 children) | Copy

I think it would be hilarious if that timeline became the /r/TheRedPill banner at the top

[–]CptDefB-1 points0 points  (4 children) | Copy


I think it may be a little fat for the header... but I'm sure some magic could be done.

[–]∞ Mod | RP Vanguardbsutansalt1 point2 points  (3 children) | Copy

Done. It's just temporary though.

[–]CptDefB0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

I didn't expect this to go anywhere, that is dope.

I will suggest;

  • Cut off some of the left side.
  • Perhaps move "The Red Pill" logo to the bottom left like RM opposite.

It should line up better for those that don't run max view size all the time. It should also shift the image enough so that the top grey text is visible since "Beta Long Term" sits neatly under the flair icons.

[–]throw8way00 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

bsutansalt, this is throw8way0. Enjoy the orangered. It makes a nice change to the red.

[–][deleted]44 points45 points  (0 children) | Copy

LTR Flair is a great idea and long overdue. Spinning plates is great and where I am now, but I do want a family and LTR content from a red pill perspective is always welcome.

[–]lucyintheskyofdenver28 points29 points  (0 children) | Copy

Relevant story time:

At girlfriend's, she catches me staring at a female roommate's ass. I wasn't being discreet at all. The booty was too hypnotic.

Later on in the night-

Gf: I saw you staring at bigbootybitch's ass.

Me: yeah, it's pretty nice.

Gf: do you know how annoying it is to see you look at other girls?

Me: listen- of all the asses I could've had- I COULD have, I chose yours.

She then proceeded to give me head. It was awesome.

This shit is too easy.

[–]MrsStrom10 points11 points  (1 child) | Copy

I think you're take on compliance testing is a little off. First, Athol Kay's terminology, loyalty testing, is more accurate. Also, the intent is inherently different from the shit test. When the woman is loyalty testing, the overall attitude will be different. Taking your example "I'll bet you flirt with all the girls this way" can be a playful jab to escalate relations (flirting), hostile (shit testing), or melancholy (loyalty testing). The first two have been covered in depth so I'll examine the loyalty test.

During a loyalty test, her eyes won't meet yours long, if at all. Her whole demeanor will be submissive. She isn't trying to aggressively challenge your authority like during a shit test. Instead, she's trying to illicit a caring and nurturing response. Been playing dread game lately? Its time to ease up and let her know that while other girls have been trying to flirt, you're happy with her. "Nah baby. That cake you baked last night was pretty damn good", with a smile and a wink. Now is a good time to escalate to sexy times you seal those loving feelings.

If you fail too many loyalty tests, she will view you as too alpha to settle down for long and simply give up. Know the difference between your tests. Your ltr depends on it.

[–]Modredpillschool[S] 7 points8 points  (0 children) | Copy

I think you're just saying what I did with different words. Yes, compliance test in my text here is referring to your loyalty test.

[–]The_Fart_Of_God6 points7 points  (5 children) | Copy

a few thoughts:

You got to balance your alpha and your beta traits but don't always use the same ratio (4/5 alpha - 1/5 beta) or she will notice. Once the gig is up it loses its charm. The hardest part to keep the spark is to be hard to read, to predict.

Beta game : most of us can run it very naturally or know what it's about, it's easy. Alpha game : not so much, it's harder to do, even more so when you're not used to it. That's why there is so much emphasis on alpha when speaking about social dynamics in this sub or elsewhere.

the "I chose you" bit is gold and works very well, especially when she rationalize being with you among her friends who know you're a player (you see among all the girls he had and could have he chose me!)

LTR are great when you work as a team. First mate/captain is a valid strategy but there are other options of course.

[–]Senior ContributorDemonspawn11 points12 points  (4 children) | Copy

the "I chose you" bit is gold and works very well, especially when she rationalize being with you among her friends who know you're a player

This bit worked gold with Digits and I. The first night we met, when I was inside watching Hockey, two other guys explained to her the "game" I was running on her. What she later told me she was thinking at the time was that I was apparently a guy who can get whatever woman he wants and I was choosing her, which made her feel special and caused her to want me more.

[–]fftsteven10 points11 points  (3 children) | Copy

Those two guys are pricks...trying to sabotage.

[–]1Ill_mumble_that8 points9 points  (1 child) | Copy

And ironic it had the reverse effect. They made him look like a master of seduction because he held frame.

[–]1KyfhoMyoba1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

I've explicitly TOLD women HOW I was gaming them AS I was gaming them.

They loved it. One would always ask me, "Do that connection pattern thingy again!"

[–]1PaulRivers104 points5 points  (3 children) | Copy

Good post, though a little tl;dr lol.

A woman who is actively looking for a mate will be testing for compliance. Now, we typically refer to compliance testing and shit testing as the same thing-but in the context of long-term mate selection, I will put forward that there is a stark difference, and that difference is the intention for which the test is given. While women will test an alpha's mettle by giving him shit tests to see if he fails to comply, a woman will test a man's potential to provide by testing his compliance and see if he intends to provide.

In this context, you should recognize compliance testing for what it is and learn to pass them while maintaining frame.

Your goal is to boost comfort and the feeling of security, but do not lose your alpha frame- as she is looking for both.

I've written this before, but it's still true and relates to your topic.

In relationships, women take the follow role.

And as a follow, girls looking for a relationship are looking for 2 contradictory things:
1. A high value lead 2. Influence over their lead

It gets crazy because high value leads don't let people have a lot of influence over them. And the women is trying to figure out - what's your value? To much influence and you come across as low value. To little influence and you're the boss in a "terrible bosses" movie.

I really got to write a whole topic on this sometime...

[–]ford_contour4 points5 points  (2 children) | Copy

It gets crazy because high value leads don't let people have a lot of influence over them.

I would insert the word reactionary in there somewhere. People hate following reactionary leaders.

But great leaders are also great listeners. Great leaders coordinate many people to accomplish many things that those people each wanted anyway, but all in a way those people didn't quite coordinate on their own. In return for this service, the leaders own goals are naturally prioritized and accomplished.

Tl;dr: Snapping to comply with requests is servant hood, but leadership involves listening (often without reacting) and (eventually, ultimately) seeing to the real (often unspoken) underlying needs.

You should write another article on the topic. I look forward to reading it.

[–]1PaulRivers100 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy

Interesting, I hadn't thought of it with "reactionary" rather than "influence" before, I'll have to give it some thought.

I keep meaning to write an article, but then...you know, I have real life things to do. :-) Keep meaning to though, like your comment is something I hadn't thought of before on the subject, hmm...

[–]1PaulRivers100 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

I was thinking about this, and I think your point is a good addition, but it's an addition rather than a chance of what I wrote.

Perhaps what I would would be more accurately phrased as "It gets crazy because high value leads don't let people have a lot of influence over them without those people earning it and proving their value".

[–]Olipyr2 points3 points  (5 children) | Copy

Really wish I had seen this sooner.

Almost positive I drove a great woman from my life by over-doing it and being seen as too risky and a bad bet. Can't believe it's affecting me this much...opening old, very deep seated scars apparently. I won't lie, I'm a little scared of losing this chick, and I hate it. Shit sucks and I'm having a very hard time controlling my emotions right this moment. Bad thing is I fell for her quicker than I thought and we've not even done anything sexual aside from some very light petting.

I feel pathetic as a 27 year old going through this. Thought I had better control. GOD DAMMIT!

The thing that scares me most and what I think causes me to drive people away is the fact I fell for a woman hard and deep years ago. She took that and completely destroyed it. The lowest of the low point in life and I stuck a gun in my mouth and pulled the trigger. I'm scared of going back to that place and therefore scared to allow myself to get close to a person again like that.

Yes, there will be more women. I honestly hate going through the bullshit to find a good one, though.

Anyway, had to get that out. This topic was somewhat relevant to how I fucked up a good thing. I guess that's why I posted it here.

Find out Saturday, I suppose. Any tips would be appreciated.

[–]heist_of_saint_graft3 points4 points  (3 children) | Copy

You shot yourself in the mouth and lived?

[–]Johnny10toes0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy

Hey it worked for Tyler Durden didn't it?

[–]WallPhone0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Something like 5% of firearm suicides take multiple shots. Met a pastor once who blew off his jaw with a .30 riffle.

[–]mods_ban_honesty0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

ya i am too much an asshole...apologies to my lovely gf

[–][deleted] 3 points3 points | Copy

[permanently deleted]

[–]mods_ban_honesty0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy

ya ,i hurt my gf the same way, being an asshole is not really lovable

[–]Johnny10toes0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Things similar to this have been on here for quite some time. You have to dig a little. MMSL is thrown around like 48 laws. Little excuse to have not seen it. I mean they talk about plates for crying out loud. Have you ever saw an act where they spin plates? All the plates do not make it to the end. They fall and break. Sometimes because of this or that and sometimes because he's not beta enough.

[–]HatchbacksandTattoos4 points5 points  (7 children) | Copy

Excellent Post. In regards to the shifting tides in our culture I think you are spot on.

Something that scares me a little and I haven't seen it talked about too much here is what will happen as more men learn about the TRP, and at the same time are graduating college with more and more student loan debt than ever. This should cause men to put off any prospects of marriage until much later as they cannot afford it, as well as the TRP knowledge to work on yourself (Lift, Read, Learn, etc.)...both make the thought of marriage daunting to say the least IMO. I am definitely in this boat right now.

Any thoughts?

[–]Senior ContributorRedPope6 points7 points  (2 children) | Copy

The guys who learn, gain, improve, and wait will build themselves into men of genuine value. When/if they choose to settle down, they will have the knowledge to select and the ability to acquire a young, loyal, feminine bride.

You are worried that too many men will find TRP and follow this path? Accomplished men partnering with loyal women. Sounds like the foundation of a very strong society.

[–]HatchbacksandTattoos0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy

I am more thinking the "when/if" with an emphasis on the if part. The more that learn about TRP and the true nature of women, combined with the mountain of debt, I just have a feeling the marriage rate will plummet at a rate not seen before. Sounds a little paranoid I know.

[–]subcover0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Rationally if both a man and woman are in debt, and they like each other aside from the debt, they can pair up and be in debt together. But it makes more sense to do a LTR other than marriage, if marriage means each becomes legally responsible for the other's debt as well as their own.

Weigh this against the joint tax filing and insurance coverage benefits of marriage, which especially kick in if one partner works and the other stays at home (e.g. with kids.)

[–]ford_contour4 points5 points  (2 children) | Copy

For some encouraging context, I got engaged after graduating with $40,000 in student debt, and after we were married my wife's salary paid my student loans off.

Some people would have called my starting posture poor, but I knew what my skills were worth, and I made sure she knew too.

Tl;dr: You don't have to wait as long as you might think to start an LTR, if you've been applying the self improvement principles and know (and advertise) your game plan.

[–]subcover0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy

That's impressive, we keep reading about men who are pressured to pay off wife's (or girlfriend's) student loan debt.

[–]anonlymouse1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

It's not necessarily a bad thing. My dad offered to pay for my mom's education, she declined because she didn't want to mooch off him. Our family would have been better off in the long term if she'd accepted the offer.

That's hindsight of course, and education was way cheaper back then, but if you have the money to spare, why not invest in your wife?

[–]subcover0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Women will be in debt too.

It could further encourage "overseas game" where you marry a girl who doesn't have US school debt because she's not from here. As well as she's less likely to be a used up whore, and she'll appreciate your SMV as a good American man more.

[–]cray-cray-cray1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

Didn't you just delete a conversation I started regarding LTRs the other day?

[–]Endorsed ContributorRedBigMan0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

tl;dr - To secure a woman's interest long term you need to satisfy both schedules of mating by tuning your approach with an appropriate level of Alpha and Beta qualities.

That said when in doubt more alpha can never hurt. Remember she can and will try to beta-ify you and you can slip in some beta behaviors to make her think she's succeeding in some small way.

As always LTR is TRP on Hard Mode. Not something beginners will want to start at unless they're forced to (IE. Via Marriage Contract).

[–]whoacalmdownthere0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Good read, thanks for posting man.

[–]ben0wn4g30 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

So I think the last girl I was with ended it with me because I wasn't beta enough. Good post.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

So should you be alpha-beta 1/5 of the time starting when you first meet her, or once you establish exclusivity.

[–][deleted] 0 points0 points | Copy

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[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (1 child) | Copy

Okay we're not trying to get people arrested here.

[–]gyffyn-3 points-2 points  (0 children) | Copy

Jesus replied: “'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.' This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”

You can kill a man, but you can't kill an idea.

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