It's great to read the trials and tribulations of guys here that have gone through the gauntlet and to remind ourselves that marriages go through semi predictable failure routines and they are mendable, to a certain degree.

There is great debate to whether or not one should "stay for the kids." That is up to the individual. But one thing that I think should be clear and nipped in the bud is the assertion the kids "will be fine" or that they would be "better with two happy parents."

Now in a recent thread, there was a link to a study that mentioned that there was only a smaller percentage of kids that ended up being directly damaged by the divorce.

These studies you have to remember first and foremost are almost always leaning left, blue pill you could say. But suffice to say, finding evidence against this study is NOT difficult. Essentially the entirety of research in this segment are in agreement, kids from families of divorce are the most likely to end up in dysfunctional relationships themselves, have a host of behavior issues, do worse academically, have worse career outcomes. Hey, it turns out, having a family is a super important part of human development, maybe it's even hard wired into us.

That's aside from the well understood point that many of the guys that land in TRP or MRP come from families of divorce, or one where the father was weak or the mother was overbearing. This point is not counterintuitive. This point is not to be understated.

The impact on children in this situation is significant. Children need role models all the way until they become adults.

"Separately, we are doing the job we should have been doing together."

KNOCK KNOCK Who's there? HAMSTER HAMSTER HAMSTER

I've heard it, I've seen it, I've LIVED IT

If you are really honest with yourself and you keep your eyes peeled, and you watch the impact on the families involved, and the kids, they will not be "alright." They will be drastically impacted, and the level of mitigation to that will be the dedication you guys give to them and their own innate ability to overcome this.

Listen, I came from the family that did this. It was as amicable as it could have been, despite it being a divorce rape scenario. My mom did a 180. It didn't help ultimately. It took decades to understand the toll it took, and didn't become readily apparent until I was deep in my own marital issues. It got traced alllll the way back for both of us, even though her family never split up.

I can't spend two or three days writing this all out, but if this post has ANY significant amount of support from the guys with kids that REALLY GET IT, I will continue to add to this post as it gets referenced.

Suffice to say, once you get out of the "lead and the kids follow" mindset and understand that there are huge milestones that they need to hit, you should understand just how complex getting a kid to college is. And not in the "they got into XYZ Uni!" type of way. But in the, they're ready, well adjusted and prepared to find a long term mate, and make it work, type of way.

Enormous amount of effort and work to get to that point.

Listen, everyone has a limit of what they'll put up with. I've been fighting the battle against a woman with BPD for over a decade. That'll sharpen up your shit boy.

Just don't delude yourself into thinking that you're going to be the exception to nearly every study ever done on this. Your kids are going to be fucked up and you'll be doing your best to pick up the pieces and put it back together into something that resembles what they were before you broke them.

Do you even remember what it was like to understand the concept of mom and dad?

"They'll be happier with two happy parents" is literally the stuff I digested and lied to myself about when I was 12. This is shit a twelve year old believes and a blue pill therapist tells you.

It is NOT reality and it is NOT red pill. It runs against what this forum is all about, which is dispensing away with the bullshit and living in a pragmatic reality, allowing you to fix what you broke by adopting blue pill dogma.

If you can not take it anymore or you want to be happier, and are willing to understand that involves damage to your children's lives then so be it.

That's red pill, no moralizing here. You want to fuck up your kids lives because your wife is a mess, I get it. Trust me, I get it. The idea that no woman is ever at fault here is bullshit, there are women that are lost causes. There are women that are truly, without question, fucking nuts. But that means you're a headcase too! If your wife is BPD, that mean's you're likely NPD.

You can bullshit yourself, but don't come on here and bullshit us and then posit that I am moralizing. I'm not.

Here is my a priori argument

• If you think there will be a net positive for your kids, you better justify it.
• If you truly truly can justify it, you probably can get full custody.
• If you don't think you can get full custody, then she isn't that bad.
• And if she isn't that bad, your kids will be better off.

which means

• If she is that bad, you should be trying to protect them by staying in the house and working on tail on the side or negotiating it.
• If any of this is true, but you still want to leave, you want to leave because you'd rather be happier than your kids be healthier.

YOU DO YOU. But don't come on here bullshitting users giving them justification to destroy their families under the notion it will help or won't hurt. That's what women do.

"Oh Tom? Yeah, you need to leave that guy, you'll be waaaayyy happier without him."

Some reading for the TIP of the iceberg, I will continue adding to this ad nauseum if the post reaches any popularity, because there is NO shortage of the huge and detrimental effects of this

Hetherington EM, Stanley-Hagan M. The adjustment of children with divorced parents: a risk and resiliency perspective. J Child Psychol Psychiatry 1999;40:129 -40.

Wallerstein JS, Blakeslee S. Second chances: men, women and children a decade after divorce. New York: Ticknor & Fields, 1989. Kimball G. How to survive your parents' divorce: kids' advice to kids. Chico, Calif: Equality Press, 1994.

Hartnup T. Divorce and marital strife and their effects on children. Arch Dis Child 1996;75:1- 8.

Krementz J. How it feels when parents divorce. New York: Alfred A. Knopf, 1984.

Thompson P. Adolescents from families of divorce: vulnerability to physiological and psychological disturbances. J Psychosoc Nurs Ment Health Serv 1998;36(3):34 -9.

Emery RE, Coiro MJ. Divorce: consequences for children. Pediatr Rev 1995;16:306 -10.

Pruett MK, Pruett KD. Fathers, divorce, and their children. Child Adolesc Psychiatr Clin N Am 1998; 7:389 -407.

Kelly JB. Marital conflict, divorce, and children's adjustment. Child Adolesc Psychiatr Clin N Am 1998;7:259 -71.

Roseby V, Johnston JR. Children of Armageddon. Common developmental threats in high-conflict divorcing families. Child Adolesc Psychiatr Clin N Am 1998;7:295-309.

Wolf AE. Why did you have to get a divorce? And why can't I get a hamster? A guide to parenting through divorce. New York: Farrar Straus & Giroux, 1998.

Lansky V. Divorce book for parents helping your child cope with divorce and its aftermath. Minnetonka, MN: Book Peddlers, 1996.

Furstenberg FF Jr, Cherlin AJ. Divided families: what happens to children when parents part. Cambridge: Harvard University Press, 1991.

Ricci I. Mom's house, dad's house: making shared custody work. New York: Collier Books, 1980.