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Lessons from two divorce cases

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May 14, 2018
54 upvotes

This probably isn't on-topic enough to be MRP-worth, so here it goes on AskMRP. I've handled two cases recently that are pretty interesting, and I know that every third guy I've PMed with on here claims to be self-employed, so this might be valuable.


CASE 1: THE WIFE

In the first case, I'm representing the wife (62). She's nuts. So is the husband (67). If I had to guess, she has PTSD and OCD and he has Narcissistic PD. Kids are all adults.

This wife has a horrid case of retroactive emotions. She talks about month-long vacations to the Bahamas as if they were the worst days in hell. Why? Because she feels like today is her worst day in hell. Divorce sucks. The guy is a hard-core dark triad follower over the last 30 years, but has pretty much sucked in his profession because he's a lazy bum, so he has no real money to show for it - maybe $50k/yr. He does have a nice $30k/yr social security income though. Wifey never worked in the 30 year marriage. He won a big case back in 2008 and has been living off of that, and the money ran out last year.

What does wifey do as soon as the money runs out? Divorce. What else does she do? Gets a chemical peel, shores up her diet, starts exercising and basically maximizes her SMV for her age group. She certainly doesn't look like she's in her 60s. AWALT.

What's her deal with this divorce? Well, that guy's solo practice is worth squat. What's his strategy? Claim he's about to retire and therefore can't pay her any spousal support. Our strategy? Get all her money up-front using his last 3 years of tax returns. Instead a 50/50 split of the assets, we're working with her getting 70%. This puts her about $250,000 ahead. Given that he's got liver cirrhosis and still drinks a 6-pack a day, she thinks he'll only make it another 7 or 8 years. In her mind, that's around $2,750/mo during what she expects to be his lifetime. If I calculate the numbers traditionally, she'd probably get somewhere closer to $2,000 (worth about $150k over the same period if we account for taxes). She's making bank on this deal and he's too stupid to realize otherwise.

Why else is this such a great deal? Because: (1) present dollars are worth more than future dollars, (2) cash-in-hand guarantees against the risk of him dying early, (3) cash-in-hand is post-tax, instead of pre-tax support that the $2,000/mo would have been ... and the list could go on.

Moral of the story? Just because you made it 30 years doesn't mean AWALT is no longer true. Also, hire a divorce attorney who actually knows how math works (which is shockingly rare).


CASE 2: THE HUSBAND

In the second case, I represent the husband. It's essentially the same set-up, except:

  • Instead of a big case in the past, my client was a brilliant engineer who resorted to being an embezzling swindler who live for years off of stealing from his old employer before turning himself in to avoid going to jail. In the end, he's still broke just like the other guy.

  • Instead of having NPD, this guy's just a straight up beta.

  • Wifey in this case is a lot crazier than in the other case - making up all kinds of things that have clear evidence proving she's wrong, yet she can't drop it.

Wifey's so psychotic that she's lost touch with reality. She is the definition of what we describe when we say women will believe what they want to believe regardless of the facts. She's manipulative to the core - even to the point of threatening in front of the children and extended family at Christmas, "Sign over everything we own and agree to take all the debts and to pay me $5,000/mo in spousal support or I'm going to start stealing property from the marital estate and giving it to my family." That didn't go over so well with the judge - especially when she actually went through with it.

Husband's response? He withdraws the case initially and tries to reconcile with her. It was never going to happen. When the case was withdrawn, that was her cue to start transferring the property away because the restraining order was gone. Two months later he realizes he got played and re-files the case.

Where'd the negotiations end up? Well, he didn't want to have to pay spousal support because this harpy would have brought him back for contempt every single month he didn't pay. So, he cooks up a deal to give her all the assets and he takes all the debts and she foregoes spousal support ... basically the same thing as above. I help him do it.

What happened here? He actually has the capacity to go earn $200,000/yr again, but now will never have to pay her any support on it (yeah, we made that order non-modifiable!). Also, he's going to file bankruptcy on 85% of the debt because that's what was in his name already. Oh yeah, and he qualifies because he doesn't have any assets to offset the debts (which is why we gave them all away), but for bankruptcy purposes there was a legitimate equitable exchange in the divorce decree and we used language distinguishing it from a domestic support obligation, so they can't say squat about it. He's going to walk away with a $200k/yr job in a year and no debts to worry about. Sure, he lost about 500k in assets, but he'll easily make that back.

Moral of the story? Do your math. The same deal that can cripple one guy makes another man laugh all the way to the bank.

Moral of both stories? If you're about to get divorced and you're self-employed, tank your income for 3 years before the divorce. If you can't feasibly do that, make large business expenditures on things that have low resale value. This decreases your income by virtue of adding large deductions, while having only a nominal impact on the value of the business, but at the same time increasing what you can potentially earn after the divorce is over because you've just invested all that money into your company.


Post Information
Title Lessons from two divorce cases
Author Red-Curious
Upvotes 54
Comments 54
Date 14 May 2018 08:26 PM UTC (2 years ago)
Subreddit askMRP
Link https://theredarchive.com/post/204497
Original Link https://old.reddit.com/r/askMRP/comments/8jfkke/lessons_from_two_divorce_cases/
Similar Posts

Red Pill terms found in post:
betaAWALTdark triadsexual market value
Comments

[–]SteelSharpensSteelMod / Red Beret18 points19 points  (9 children) | Copy

Dang. You must seriously see red pill stuff at your job pretty frequently.

Good tips for the self employed. And learn math. Always important.

[–]Red-Curious[S] 10 points11 points  (5 children) | Copy

Every. Single. Day.

[–]SteelSharpensSteelMod / Red Beret5 points6 points  (1 child) | Copy

So then how does "be attractive, don't be unattractive" play out in the courtroom? I would think that if you are attractive, you are perceived as more intelligent - as a example.

[–]Red-Curious[S] 18 points19 points  (0 children) | Copy

The court cares more about what you do than what you look like. OYS, for example, plays out super well. Having rippling muscles can give them the gut impression that you're an abusive douchebag. WISNIFG stuff comes off like pure gold to a judge - especially fogging and negative inquiry. A DNGAF attitude will likely lose you your case. It's all hit or miss and knowing how to paint yourself. Moderate charm works wonders. Too much and it backfires, too little and they think you're just disinterested.

It's important to remember that your judge is 95% or higher likely to be a career beta man or an empowered feminist - both groups who are incredibly resistant to RP attraction methods. The men just don't function like that biologically, and the women judges (although preferable to men judges) will resent you and themselves that they're attracted to what all their peers would call chauvinism when they see it. Either that or they just legit don't like guys like that. The courtroom is a lot like the stage. You have to know your audience and play the part they want to see.

[–]DanceMonkeeDanceRed Beret3 points4 points  (2 children) | Copy

More than just math. Basic economics and accounting. Most people are illiterate about this stuff.

[–]SteelSharpensSteelMod / Red Beret3 points4 points  (1 child) | Copy

Present value, people, come on. Learn to use the financial formulas in Excel - they're well worth it.

[–]DanceMonkeeDanceRed Beret2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy

Excel is useless if you don't know what it means. Or where the concepts even come from.

Had a great discussion with my teenager last week about opportunity costs. Once you know what it is, it's always in your toolkit.

[–]resolutions3165 points6 points  (2 children) | Copy

This is a question I’ve been mulling over - IS this red pill stuff?

Or are both of these cases of horrible people fucking horrible people?

I mean, OP calls them out as all having personality disorders - that shit is not gendered, nor does it have to do with sexual strategy. Yes, the women in the stories are maximizing their outcomes through divorce, but the men are trying to do the same.

I wonder how often we attribute shitty human behavior to “RP truth” - and end up obscuring he truth in the process.

Like, is the lesson here “AWALT”? Or is the lesson “don’t marry terrible people”? Is there a difference between those two takeaways, and does which one you choose affect how you maximize your sex life within your own marriage?

This is a literal question, by the way, not internet arguing via shorty rhetorical question.

[–]PersaeusRed Beret2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy

that shit is not gendered

actually it is. there are large variances in mental illness by gender - just one article but they all say the same thing.

At it's most basic level - the red pill is about seeing reality versus the mirage using a praxeological method to maximize male sexual strategy. The italicize is because we all know the same methodology can be applied, to great affect, to all interpersonal interactions.

i think the AWALT lesson here is your burden of performance and the transactional nature of relationships never ends

OP gives some pointers on how to end a sexual relationship with minimum damage.

[–]SteelSharpensSteelMod / Red Beret0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

When I asked this, my question was more around his viewpoint on the male/female interactions between himself and his clients, his clients and their ex's, viewing the downfall of what got his clients into that situation in the first place, his clients not being fit or in shape, his interactions with the female judges, etc - all the normal male/female dynamics that you learn about.

Generally, once you take the red pill, you can't unsee stuff.

Yes, people are horrible, but that's not red pill. But the predictions that red pill has on behavior (witness the AWALT from the older woman) - well, that's not surprising.

The lesson here is hire a good lawyer. Red pill lets you understand, but a good lawyer that goes to bat for you is worth their weight in gold.

[–]PersaeusRed Beret6 points7 points  (0 children) | Copy

If you're about to get divorced and you're self-employed, tank your income for 3 years before the divorce. If you can't feasibly do that, make large business expenditures on things that have low resale value.

playbook my dad ran on wife #2. sold me many of his assets at a loss which i sold back to him a few years later. worked great.

[–][deleted] 3 points4 points  (2 children) | Copy

What’s your office number? Asking for a friend.....

[–]Red-Curious[S] 2 points3 points  (1 child) | Copy

Hah ... send me a PM. I try to avoid doxxing myself.

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy

Totally. I’m not in need, just impressed with the combo of law and finance to get to a good outcome for the second dude.

[–][deleted] 3 points4 points  (0 children) | Copy

Nice post. Well worth the time to read it.

[–]broneilbro2 points3 points  (3 children) | Copy

How should one setup a go plan that is always ready? I have seen that but it seems like one would have to approach it in a way to minimizing co-mingling of assets.

If we have a joint account that I feed into I would be responsible for that amount I feed in correct?

[–]Red-Curious[S] 4 points5 points  (2 children) | Copy

It depends on the state you're in. I live in a state that assumes all property acquired during the marriage is joint and marital even if you keep it separate, so there's no helping there. The best way to fool-proof yourself is to get your wife a job earning comparable income to you. Just get filthy rich and pay someone to do all the housework for you. If you want a wife who stays home, that's fine ... but expect to be paying spousal support if it ever ends.

[–]broneilbro2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy

Copy. We live in FL and while we have a prenup I am selling some homes and looking in a way to protect myself because she is getting AWALTy if that makes sense...or maybe I'm becoming woke and seeing shit that might not be there or could be there. Fuck this rabbit hole

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Just an add...... access is key.

Example: Everything is joint, she clears out all the accounts and rides off with Chad on his Harley. Good luck paying the bills for a while. Good luck paying your lawyer's fee. Yeah, baby needs new shoes......

Example: You are ready to walk. You have your money in separate ownership accounts. Now you have the "fuck you fund" needed to file on her, get another place and get set up.

Again, access is important, regardless of how a court will eventually split your assets. How many guys never got the dog, or the big screen TV that was awarded in the settlement? Access....

[–][deleted] 3 points4 points  (22 children) | Copy

great post is there a reason you placed it here rather than mrp it seems out of place

[–]Red-Curious[S] 8 points9 points  (21 children) | Copy

It seemed too niche for MRP. It doesn't have mass appeal - only to those who are self employed and contemplating divorce. I used to clog MRP with lots of stuff like this, some even lower quality. I'm trying to avoid that nowadays.

[–]Rian_StoneMod / Red Beret[M] 6 points7 points  (0 children) | Copy

cross posting it anyways. It's the best field report I've seen in a while

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (19 children) | Copy

ah

[–]simbarlionRed Beret1 point2 points  (18 children) | Copy

there are more posts here on ask in the last 24 hours than in the last 7 days on MRP.

[–]SteelSharpensSteelMod / Red Beret0 points1 point  (17 children) | Copy

Not if you count the ones the mods deleted. Gotta have quality to go on the main sub.

[–]red-sfpplusHard Core Red4 points5 points  (16 children) | Copy

This is a real struggle on the main sub TBH.

Even Rollo who is God among men....i feel his posts are to far in the ether now. I dont comment on them, and TBH dont read them as often anymore. And based off how few people comment, I dont think I am alone on this.

What he talks about is so deep. So fucking deep. Its like when people talk about there being a matrix inside of the matrix and that is how Neo had powers in the “real” world.

Fuck man. The movie was enuf. Now you are telling me Zion was just another matrix one level deeper? And they were all still inside the Matrix.

Damn it.

[–]SteelSharpensSteelMod / Red Beret1 point2 points  (5 children) | Copy

That is some Inception-level shit right there.

And yeah. When I look back at some of the quality posts years back, they were always on point. Rule zero. But now? Not nearly as much.

[–]ReddJiveRed Beret2 points3 points  (3 children) | Copy

Few are pushing theory any more. It's just regurgitation of the already known principles. I blame veterans and flared men here for that.

In many respects we are not offering ourselves up to the crucible and vetting a theory or idea. Pushing the boundaries of Red Pill. For that matter FRs are only success stories, and lately only if they are massively successful.

Its not all nearly figured out. There is more to learn from each situation.

[–]weakandsensitive1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy

Read more OYS and less main page posts.

[–]TaipanshimshonRed Beret1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

after a while I find myself repeating what I already said time and time again.

Maybe I should dedicate like an actual set time to it. Because honestly, most people don't post. they just read the comments, sigh, and turn on pornhub.

[–]SorcererKingMod / Red Beret1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

You know how this goes: if you have ideas, you have a theory to test out, post it. Complaining about no one doing something you find worthwhile is also complaining about yourself.

[–]red-sfpplusHard Core Red0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

You want to go down the rabbit hole, go google matrix inside of matrix theories. Fucking nuts.

[–]simbarlionRed Beret1 point2 points  (6 children) | Copy

I agree.

In my head i differentiate the two as :

MRP - theoretical / lessons learnt / Field Reports from anyone >6months

ASKMRP - Newbies, rubbish post / other basic shit

Now TBH I can get most of whats in MRP from the books. Except I think things like 60DoD which is very real world, i have benefited greatly form each one.

But ASK is much more paticipatory. Throw ideas around, hear people problems.

It is a bit like Time magazine versus Who magazine. I need ot sit the fuck down and concentrate on Time magazine, WHO magazine is good for a browse and light entertainment.

And you (red-spplus) chose to post about the party in ask! What does that say! (EDIT I lied, it was posted in MRP)

[–]weakandsensitive1 point2 points  (5 children) | Copy

Really simple stuff... MRP focuses on value add for the reader. I delete all sorts of low value, low quality content. If I'm honest, the greatest thread on MRP is the weekly OYS thread. Everything else is pretty much fluff - some higher tier than others.

AskMRP is more about value add for the poster.

With that distinction in mind, this post would pass that test no problem.

The only thing I have to add is that Case 2 seems more like a Pyrrhic victory. Sure, no long term spousal support, but also being forced to work for 10+ years at 60 seems like a pain in the butt, especially considering potential assets shuttled. Unfortunately, /u/Red-Curious was probably beholden to a life long beta who played to reconcile instead of playing to destroy his stbx.

[–]simbarlionRed Beret0 points1 point  (4 children) | Copy

[–]weakandsensitive4 points5 points  (3 children) | Copy

Because it hasn't been removed yet you needy fuck

[–]Rian_StoneMod / Red Beret0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy

Makes sense. Even my new ass can see it. Theres only so much shit to know, afterwards, you're throwing shit against the wall to see where it sticks, or re articulating someone elses concepts.

It's a good thing I guess, it means we aren't doing rocket science here, and constant iterations are where the focus needs to be

[–]RuleZeroDADRed Beret1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy

Any reason to disavow the flair? New Reddit blues? Navy not so important anymore? Protesting the Royal Wedding?

[–]Rian_StoneMod / Red Beret0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

? My flair? I haven't touched it, probsbly the new reddit

[–]ReddJiveRed Beret1 point2 points  (8 children) | Copy

I have recommended bankruptcy a couple times to friends of mine. Since 2008 or so it's been nature's do over. Doesn't carry the stigma it once did. A buddy of mine got in a bad spot. I convinced him to file.

In the end he got to keep his house (which he didn't expect), and walk out owning only 8K of a massive debt he was staring at.

Granted....he was stupid and got himself into trouble still I am shocked at how much redundancy there is in modern life.

[–]Rian_StoneMod / Red Beret0 points1 point  (7 children) | Copy

how does that work with the mortgage? They just refinance with a new amount and eat the loss?

[–]ReddJiveRed Beret1 point2 points  (6 children) | Copy

he had the advantage of being upside down. The bank didn't add it to his possible assets as a result. As Red-Curious points out having a lawyer that can do math helps. My buddy did.

[–]Rian_StoneMod / Red Beret1 point2 points  (5 children) | Copy

Damn, when Torontos market crashes, I do hope it takes out the condo market. I would gladly take an 8 year blacklisting to sign off that debt

[–]ReddJiveRed Beret2 points3 points  (4 children) | Copy

seriously.

People criticize Trump for multiple bankruptcies but the fact is in today's world it's a viable tactic. The stigma is almost gone from it. Amoral as it were. Back when the US housing market crashed short sales were, and to some degree still are, all the rage.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

I would say the stigma is gone from it.

Credit cards are available within a year, mortgage within 3 years IF you file before your credit score tanks. If you see the writing on the wall relatively early you can avoid almost all of the previously typical repercussions of bankruptcy. And the social stigma is nil since the only public announcement is in the printed newspaper classifieds and who the hell reads those anymore?

Call it a Defensive Bankruptcy or whatever you like, it is a viable option.

[–]Aechzen-1 points0 points  (2 children) | Copy

People criticize Trump for multiple bankruptcies

Because people understand that people can make mistakes, and the market can turn through no fault of your own. That house that was a great investment during a rising market turns upside down.

But to have it happen repeatedly across multiple business cycles suggests bad judgment.

[–]ReddJiveRed Beret0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy

personally i think trump only succeeds because he has so much money and influence. not because of his skills.

[–]BewareTheOldMan0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

You are in fact correct - in a documentary prior to the November (2016) Election, there was a an anecdote where a group of investors loaned him money despite knowing full well Trump was near bankruptcy. The money was advanced for a major project based off his name-recognition.

He was able to work the deal, but if it went bad the investors would have lost millions.

[–]InChargeManRed Beret1 point2 points  (3 children) | Copy

Since this is relevant, here is a post I made a while back regarding a small business owner and his divorce rape.

**Quoted from post**

As a student I was mentored by a man who had an engineering business that was primarily based on consulting (Edit for clarification: their typical customer would pay his company to design then arrange manufacturing for products, but sometimes they would only deliver IP to be integrated by the customer). He had a small office building he rented, a little equipment for prototyping, and 1 or 2 employees. He has a strong reputation and did lots of work for larger companies. Generally he was very successful, and although his income would fluctuate year to year, was able to bring in at least as much as he would have made as an employee at a large company, usually more, but probably not orders of magnitude more.

His story went per usual: He was married, had kids, used the money he earned to buy a nice house and toys for his wife and kids to enjoy while he is working. After 10-15 years the house is fully paid, kids are going off to college, and he has some decent savings. Then, as it goes, he and his stay at home wife divorce (I don't know the details, she may have cheated).

The caution: Because he "owned a business" the lawyers were able to put a "value" on his business ridiculously high. Keep in mind, his business was essentially consulting work, he had few assets, no significant IP, pretty much just his reputation. As you may be aware, there are many ways to determine a company's value. In this case they did some multiplier (probably 3X - 4X if I had to guess) of the revenue. I don't know the exact value (I do know it was well more than $1M, since he said that once), but imagine if his annual revenue was $400k, his company might have been valued at $1.6 Million.

How he got fucked: As you probably have deduced, when all assets were tabulated, cars, boat, house, savings, etc. and his company, they figured out that to do a 50% split, you can't split the company, so the best thing to do was give her EVERY FUCKING THING and he gets....his job. Plus he has to pay for the kids college and alimony.

He got fucked so hard it is really sad. If he just had a regular job (which is pretty close to reality realistically, essentially he was a consultant) he would have still been fucked like all guys are, but in this case it was a nuclear fucking. He slept in his office (literally had a laundry basket in his office) and had to essentially start from scratch plus making payments to his wife.

Lesson: I've been struggling to come up with a lesson beyond don't get married. Probably better lawyers could have helped. Beyond that, it seems like the best approach might be to include specific language regarding how assets like a business are handled/excluded in a prenup.

TLDR: Guy starts a small business, uses it to buy expensive houses and shit, wife gets it all in the divorce and he gets to keep his job so he can make alimony payments.

[–]BewareTheOldMan1 point2 points  (2 children) | Copy

It's unfortunate, but the key in the 21st Century is to ensure the wife is ALWAYS employed and working at least a part-time job so that if everything goes sideways, she has some form of income and the higher earner is not left holding the bag.

Full-time employment is even better as it generally comes with medical and dental benefits - something that ex-wives fail to think about while they're out there having sex with other men and eventually divorce their reliable provider-husband.

I've heard stories where women make unilateral decisions to stop working and expect the husband to accept the situation. When wives suddenly terminate employment, that's a man's immediate cue to initiate divorce proceedings because the wife-initiated divorce is coming at some point. It's the basic tactic of not having an income for a two to three-year period and then go into divorce court demanding a ridiculous amount of alimony.

Most guys don't see this coming. They think they're giving the wife a well-deserved break, but she's setting the husband up for the big payout.

[–]InChargeManRed Beret1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

Yep, I've never been a fan of the SAHM concept anyway. Once the kids are in school she needs to be out there earning her keep.

[–]catchpull0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Damn insightful!!! Thank you.

[–]ITouchMyselfAtNight0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Why don't these people just move to another country?



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