Men are not more naturally individualist than women

Mr_Smoogs · 2019-01-25T05:51:00+00:00

The research is pretty solid on this.

https://opentextbc.ca/socialpsychology/chapter/person-gender-and-cultural-differences-in-conformity/

Women are more likely to conform and have in-group bias.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/15491274/

So there’s no way to challenge the opinion that something is or is not a natural desire. It’s a unfalsifiable claim. To prove such a claim would require unethical human experiments.

But we do see that cross-culturally, men are more likely to be individualists while women are more likely to conform.

[deleted] · 2019-01-25T05:42:24+00:00

The safer a situation is, the more individualist a man can be, whereas that impact is far less operative for women because they still need protection from some men. The military is a situation of danger or anticipated danger and thus lends itself to collectivism.

whichbladeN · 2019-01-25T05:42:10+00:00

Individualism isn't even popular in most non-western countries.

Japan is all about making self sacrifices for the family and community.

wingbark · 2019-01-25T05:41:44+00:00

I think what’s meant is that men compete with one another in the SMP/RMP. So from that standpoint, it’s individualist. I can be your friend and stand by your side as soldiers together, but when it comes to dating it literally is every man for himself

Scatre · 2019-01-25T05:51:46+00:00

Your political analogy seems short-sighted. Of course the left is going to be considered more collectivist than the right, but that's not because the left is more "feminine". Policies pushing for social welfare is inherently collectivist.

The military is collectivist because it's the most effective way of engaging in combat. That's also why it's mainly male.

Individualism is considered more masculine, because masculinity has traits of self-reliance and competition. You don't see as many women fighting as hard to get higher paying jobs. You also don't see huge male-only support groups or any significant men's rights movements.

DXBrigade · 2019-01-25T09:44:55+00:00

It's true that women (and minorities) are more left-winged. Women are also more social than men and also likelier to be caretaker. So I am not surprised if we were more collectivist.

Men on the other hand are more competitive and more work-oriented. So yes probably more individualistic.

I don't see what is wrong with either collectivism and individualism both have pros and cons.

[deleted] · 2019-01-25T13:55:41+00:00

This is by far one of the most ahistorical things manosphereans say and frankly it only serves to push a certain political narrative. (right-wing politics are "masculine", left-wing politics are "feminine". Of course the fact that right-wingers also promote certain types of collectivism is largely ignored)

No, this is just a fact. Look at any research. Men are way more individualistic than women. It has nothing to do with political leaning. Why do people keep saying TRP is a political movement? It is not. It is just a tool to get sex, for fucks sake.

Masculinity is just as collectivist as femininity. Just look at one obvious example: the military. The military is almost exclusively male and its structure is obviously collectivist.

Hum... Yeah. and they are broken by this. This is what my instructor said. To break the new recruits at my compulsory year in the military. They are still individualists. But forced into service. We are in real danger of death or torture otherwise. It is like saying that a tiger is collectivist by doing tricks in a show. No, he is broken.

The truth is that "individualism" in the way these people mean it, is a very recent idea and also largely nonexistent outside of western culture.

You spouting nonsense. I am from Brazil and I am a descendant of South Native Americans. Our original village always had individualistic people and always understood individualism, do you understand why our ancestors did everything by themselves is because they did not want to deal with other people, right?

The difference is that in small tribes of hunter gatherers you are family to the tribe and you need each other to survive, we are a social species, but not a entirely social, like ants, we have individualism and collectivism in ourselves. The fact do not change that most men are more individualistic regardless of where tho.

Individualism is ancient. Socrates talk about it. And is not related to western cultures, as mongols, indians and chinese also had this characteristics (it was just not prevalent). The difference is that the west has less of a subjugated mentality because of the "we are all equal humans" mentality, instead of "plebeians and nobles" of the rest of the world. Most societies would want individualism, it is just not possible. For example. If I could I would not trade my eggs with the neighbor for some cow meat. I would love to grow all meat for myselt to eat. But I can't. So I am forced as meat is too expensive for me to buy.

BobApposite · 2019-01-25T20:51:33+00:00

You make a good argument, here.

I'd say you're probably right.

Which means whatever forces dictate "individualism" versus "collectivism" might have little-or-nothing to do with gender.

I think people just tend to gravitate toward gender as an "easy"/"lazy" explanation - because we don't really have any other framework.

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analt223 · 2019-01-25T14:15:38+00:00

I think the question is, do others allow men and women to do the opposite as much? For example, men who don't stand out among the crowd (preferably in a good way) usually don't get sex.

Women who want to be go getters and stand out (unless its through being hot) usually don't get the commitment from a high value man.

So did we evolve this way over time? Were we always like this? Its perhaps biological now.

People fear dying alone/being replaced/being deemed obsolete by others, so are men and women acting this way to stave off obsolescence?

WhyMeThough1 · 2019-01-25T16:00:29+00:00

I mean you can literally Google that shitt and see the scientific reasoning behind it but no, that's too much to ask I guess

gasparddelanuit · 2019-01-25T16:19:18+00:00

I agree and disagree with you.

Where I disagree is that I believe masculinity is more individualistic than femininity. Men simply have a greater capacity for independence, both physically and mentally, which speaks to that individualism.

However, where I agree with you is that I don't believe that left-wing politics is inherently feminine. Men are the inventors of both left-wing and right-wing politics. These strands of political thought have largely been conceived and developed by the intellectual efforts of men, not women. Women's only significant theoretical contribution has been what has emerged as a consequence of feminism, but the left-wing tradition was established by men, well before feminism came along. Prior to feminism, left-wing political philosophy has predominantly been driven by rationality, which is a very masculine proclivity. Right-wing politics has traditionally been lighter on intellectual rigour and driven by emotion to a greater extent than left-wing politics. Also, there are many aspects of right-wing politics that are collectivist, such as a strong belief in nation states or enforced homogeneity in areas of ethnicity and religion.

The fact that 53% of white women voted for Donald Trump also reveals that significant numbers of women prefer and benefit from right-wing, traditionalist or conservative systems. It's marginalised groups who are more likely to opt for a change to an established right-wing status quo, not necessarily women. The established status quo, when it comes to political power, is still right-wing and excludes a lot of people of colour, so it makes sense that fewer women of colour voted for Trump.

Having said this, I believe that women are more likely to favour systems which give them greater security, but this is not the exclusive preserve of the left. Some women may feel that traditional conservative systems provide the greater security.

Lastly, I will say that there is not homogeneity on the political left or right, so people talking as if these political wings are monolithic does a disservice to the complexity and truth of political matters.

StopTheIncels · 2019-01-25T17:18:41+00:00

I don't know where the study or book I read it from, but if you put a group of boys versus a group of girls and have them complete the same task as a group, the boys will splinter off into functional groups (almost without any instruction and work on their specific part of the task) while the girls will gather and hold a larger group to decide who does which tasks and try to delegate out the responsibility as per the collective decision.

Not sure if this answers the questions completely, however it demonstrates an example of the male:individual (or individualistic part) of a whole versus female:collective (or group) conformity to a whole.

Eartherry · 2019-01-25T06:59:48+00:00

Being that we're a social species individualism is counterproductive to our survival. True individualists either go nuts from isolation or are rightly determined to be mentally ill.

Intellectualbeing93 · 2019-01-25T06:54:42+00:00

Sounds like an expert. Pad or tampon?

GuyWithTheStalker · 2019-01-25T05:49:35+00:00

Almost totally ignoring what you said, I'm gonna go off on a tangent.

The other day an ass intentionally bumped into me and went on several rants.

In one of them she noted that Jordan Peterson is wrong about absolutely everything in everyway possible and that anyone who agrees with him on any part of anything he says is necesarily and ironically a "beta male/female."

Interestingly, she apparently went waaaaaayyy out of her way just to tell me this AND for all I know, made the trip alone.

I said that Jordan Peterson is at least partly right about a few things, but I honestly could not come up with a single example on the spot, even after looking through youtube for a minute or two.

So I leave you with this:

Do "Alpha Females" travel in packs?

...

And where does Kevin Lee fit into all of this? 😏

Pastelitomaracucho · 2019-01-25T05:50:17+00:00

B-but the military is not a male organisation...

[deleted] · 2019-01-25T11:34:55+00:00

I disagree it is a western idea. People started going their own way thousand years ago in the east.

Title	Men are not more naturally individualist than women
Author	[deleted]
Upvotes	17
Comments	91
Date	January 25, 2019 5:32 AM UTC (7 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/PurplePillDebate
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/ajlw5v/men_are_not_more_naturally_individualist_than/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/PurplePillDebate/men-are-not-more-naturally-individualist-than.257637 https://theredarchive.com/post/257637

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