Q4ALL: Why when women try to be beautiful, they blame society, but if men try to be handsome, its toxic masculinity?

Atlas_B_Shruggin · 2017-08-02T03:08:54+00:00

where has ANYONE called men trying to improve their physical appearance (be HANDSOME) "toxic masculinity"?

Electra_Cute · 2017-08-02T04:05:33+00:00

This is asinine, how did you even come to this conclusion?

Anarchkitty · 2017-08-02T03:09:07+00:00

I've never heard of a guy wanting to be more handsome being part of toxic masculinity. Are you sure you know what that term means?

Battle-Scars · 2017-08-02T03:36:40+00:00

Anytime I've increased my masculinity I have had nothing but positive responses from women.

sublimemongrel · 2017-08-02T03:04:25+00:00

You think our desire to be beautiful and skinny is "society's fault?" "Society" may drill it in us that that is important, but we don't try to be beautiful for "society." Well, at least I don't. Beauty is also power, let's not forget.

Also I have never heard of a guy who wants to get more fit and "pretty' being accused of toxic masculinity. I've heard that (on the internet, never IRL) for men who do "manly" things that might be counterinituitive or "bad" for him (i.e., shirking the doctor, starting fights, etc.).

crumblesnatch · 2017-08-02T03:00:50+00:00

nah, if she tries to be beautiful and everyone around her is ugly, suddenly she has low self-esteem and needs to learn to love herself.

"you can afford one doughnut" = BE FAT LIKE USSSSSS

Pope_Lucious · 2017-08-02T03:40:39+00:00

Wut?

[deleted] · 2017-08-02T03:43:57+00:00

I think you are saying being masculine is the same as being handsome. And while masculinity is attractive, these aren't the same thing.

Women are gossips and bullies to each other in large part because mediating the flow of power through the female social matrix improves their relative SMV. Still nobody encourages girls to call each other sluts and lesbians or make up silly rumors.

Do you see what I'm getting at?

Butt-Factory · 2017-08-02T04:03:19+00:00

What?

BiggerDthanYou · 2017-08-02T07:15:39+00:00

Learn what feminist concepts mean before you use them.

and therefore the patriarchy's fault and therefore men's

That's a wrong interpretation of patriarchy based on the name solely.

No one says that only men are to blame for patriarchal attitudes in cultures.

it's the fault of his own toxic and fragile masculinity. Right ?

That's a wrong interpretation of toxic masculinity based on the name only.

They aren't talking about things inherent to men. They are talking about the societal attitudes that push men to be like that.

In feminism/gender studies the various masculinities (along with gender) are social constructs. They are talking about how various people (people includes women) define masculinity, but not about the state of being a man.

In other words they are talking about that pressure.

crumblesnatch · 2017-08-02T11:13:18+00:00

Er, sort of...? I mean, I don't disagree that people say that, but I think in actuality it's kinda backwards when you look at the extreme cases.

When women try to be too skinny or too beautiful (think body dymorphics who overdose on plastic surgery, anorexia nervosa, etc.) people tend to blame society/patriarchy, yes. I personally think that's bullshit, or at least a vast oversimplification of the issue. "The patriarchy" is one of those causes that gets proposed for every problem, and that's just lazy. Sure, anorexia is socially influenced; before the advent of fashion models, it was "starving for God" and called anorexia mirabilis. There are social elements to these things, because individuals act within a society, but apparently, some ladies are just prone to starving themselves. There are observable brain differences between normal people and anoretics.

When a man tries to be too manly, people tend to call that "toxic/fragile masculinity" (think steroid abusers, guys who die from preventable cancers because they were "toughing it out"). He does get the idea that unhealthy habits are "manly" from society. There are no real inborn brain differences between a guy who lifts to get a more masculine physique, and the guy who takes steroids and lifts because he's a Real Man. I suppose you could argue testosterone, but there are plenty of high-T guys who are capable of making healthy choices without worrying they look like a sissy.

Those are the extremes, obviously. In general, there are societal benefits to being good-looking. There are also societal benefits for a man who acts masculine, and for a woman who act feminine. Beauty/handsomeness are socially influenced, but people generally prefer visible signs of health and symmetry, and will use make-up or working out to achieve that. Nothing wrong there.

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RockinSocksII · 2017-08-02T03:22:19+00:00

More like forced to be beautiful and forced to be manly. No one gives a shit about other's choices to be better.

Dominic_Badguy · 2017-08-02T04:00:30+00:00

Body image issues have seemed to be the focus of women, but in the past few years there has been a push in regards to male body image issues.

wtknight · 2017-08-02T11:12:35+00:00

The women who I've ever been in LTRs with have never tried to strongly conform to social standards of femininity and have laughed at or criticized behind closed doors women who are like this rather than saying they are some kind of victims of patriarchy. I don't think it's some kind of universal belief among people that women who concentrate so much on their beauty and weight are some kind of victims.

BookwormJane · 2017-08-02T13:37:03+00:00

but if a guy feels pressured to be a manly dude, it's the fault of his own toxic and fragile masculinity.

Which are generated by patriarchy as well.

shoup88 · 2017-08-02T14:35:51+00:00

People have already torn into your first misconception - trying to be handsome is not toxic masculinity - so I'm going to focus on your other one.

Toxic masculinity does not come from within the man himself. It comes from societal pressure to behave a certain way. You're literally describing the same thing for each gender here.

[deleted] · 2017-08-02T15:12:08+00:00

Link to someone saying that men trying to be handsome is toxic masculinity first, then we can talk.

Merger-Arbitrage · 2017-08-02T03:53:30+00:00

Uh, so is the guy trying to be handsome or masculine? There's some overlap there, but masculinity is a far broader term.

I've never heard the term "toxic masculinity" uttered in real life (I've lived in the US for 11 years now).

Additionally, the only time I've been criticized for trying to look good (dressing slightly above occasion, for example) it was usually by a bunch of losers (friends of friends) who've had zero or almost zero (literally - like no kiss) success with women.

pinkgoldrose · 2017-08-02T06:02:41+00:00

I'm still not clear on what exactly is toxic masculinity, but I'm pretty sure it's not that.

To me toxic masculinity would be a culture that pushes you to do something that's bad for you or for other men in order to conform to your gender role. So it would be stuff like getting into fights, making homophobic jokes, not seeking mental health help. By the same logic, toxic femininity would be a culture that pushes you to do something that's bad for you or other women in order to conform to your gender role. So maybe it's stuff like wearing heels or avoiding a career path specifically because you don't want to appear less feminine. The thing is, it seems like these behaviors are all driven by men. Like men make more homophobic jokes between themselves and in manly environments, but women wear less heels between themselves.

Title	Q4ALL: Why when women try to be beautiful, they blame society, but if men try to be handsome, its toxic masculinity?
Author	BisquitBill
Upvotes	1
Comments	141
Date	August 2, 2017 2:59 AM UTC (8 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/PurplePillDebate
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/6r1d5g/q4all_why_when_women_try_to_be_beautiful_they/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/PurplePillDebate/q4all-why-when-women-try-to-be-beautiful-they.266639 https://theredarchive.com/post/266639

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