One of the constant back-and-forth battles of TRP vs. TBP is how much muscle is necessary to woo the ladies.

While obviously there are individuals with personal preferences ["I like fat hairy men with mediocre lives and mediocre bodies"] both sides usually admit that having SOME muscle is better than having none. The question is “How much is too much?”

TBP believes Reds focus too much on gaining size, doing PED's [Performance Enhancing Drugs, of which steroids is one variety] and getting massive/swole/#YesIDefinitelyLift. They maintain it is in fact the elusive OTTER BODY that women actually find most attractive, which is less huge, more sleek, and pointedly Zac Efron-esque.

On the other hand RedPill says that while being toned and having abs is fine and dandy, women have yet to come with X-Ray vision capable of seeing beneath clothing. Nobody wants women to have a “DYEL” look on her face when you say you go to the gym pretty much all the time.

I think the biggest problem is that most people have no idea how lifting, genetics, or muscle growth ACTUALLY work.

Ladies, use your imagination for a moment. Tell me what you think of when I describe myself from the perspective of a gym rat.

"I'm 6 foot 2, 200 pounds. I am large and very muscular. I go to the gym multiple times a day almost every day, and everyone says I'm big. I drink protein shakes on a regular basis ad have a strict chicken diet. I'm a regular steroid user."

What pops into your mind?

Is it something like THIS?

Maybe THIS?

Would you be surprised then, if the guy I was talking about looked like THIS?

The truth is all that ALL of my examples could fit my description if we substitute different heights and weights. The reason for that is because they are ALL professional bodybuilders. They lift heavy shit up and put it down for a money. These guys are NOT normal.

So what do normal weight lifters actually look like? Here are some examples.

  1. Here
  2. And here
  3. Here's one
  4. Another
  5. The Ultimate Bro
  6. This guy Here is on the upper end of what your average frequent weight lifter looks like.

Many men are capable of getting significantly bigger than this with time and training [GLO is an example] but for the severely overweight, underweight, or perpetually skinny fat, these pictures represent likely outcomes after months or even years of work.

So you still might be thinking to yourself: "Ok, so maybe these guys won't become the mutated fallout victims I originally thought they would. But the otter body is still waaaay better than the guys above. Shouldn't that be the preferred option?"

Well, you might be right. But there's a few problems standing in the way of men trying to achieve Zac Efron mode.

The first is how we're genetically hardwired. While everyone has the ability to lose weight and gain muscle, how we carry that muscle on our bodies will differ from person to person based on our genetics.

Here's an example from the legendary r/bodybuilding artist Chick McFugget that illustrates my point.

http://imgur.com/YXOpEFc

Take a close look at those two body types. It isn't just that one is bigger and one is smaller. The muscular structure is completely different! This is an accurate reflection of why it is difficult for men who are in the chunky category to ever be ottermode.

"OK, but what about the sleek group? RP doesn't differentiate and tries to get everyone to put on mass!"

Very true, hypothetical audience member asking convenient transition questions. The reason for that is because ottermode dudes usually have a strong base for strength, and oftentimes athleticism. Their bodies aren't shaped like that for no reason.

Even an ottermode body like Beebs aka Justin aka Is his dong photoshopped to be bigger? likely works with many personal trainers in order to craft his body into the most eye-pleasing shape possible. He’s not visiting his local YMCA and doing crunches with a shady trainer/drug dealer who keep dimebags in his headband.

For a RedPill man making the transition from no exercise at all, this can be an almost unattainable goal to shoot for.

However, there are men who CAN attain ottermode relatively easy. Usually these are skinnier men putting on weight for the first time. In my opinion, if you have the Zac Efron-esque face to pull off the Zac Efron body, then go for it! With the right sort of tight shirt it could actually help you stand out. But if you’re goofy looking or hideous, you've got to get ladies to peel their eyes from your disgusting mug and onto your enormous pecks. Or wear a mask or something. Shit.

Thoughts? Opinions? Concerns? Questions?

TL,DR: TRP wanting to lift heavy weights and become big does not mean they will or even want to be steroid pumped freaks. Those men are professional bodybuilders who have elite levels of training and supplements. Ottermode is not attainable for many men, and getting big is the aesthetically better option. Even if you do have an otterbody, you usually won't look any different from a regular person.