CMV: Men are more entitled than women.

betterdeadthanbeta · 2015-09-14T01:26:25+00:00

In order to compete, men need to believe that they deserve it. Entitlement is a natural result of this.

I think this is the central flaw in your logic/post. Entitlement is the opposite of competition. If you're entitled to something you don't have to compete for it - it just accrues to you automatically since you have an inherent right to it. This is why govt benefits, for instance, are "entitlements" - you don't work or compete for them, they're yours by right.

And this is also why entitlement is usually seen as a bad thing. People feeling entitled to things is bad since they will A) not work to earn them and then B) complain when they aren't handed them. If you want to redefine entitlement to include things that people actually have worked hard to earn, that negative connotation kind of vanishes... And so does the general context of the debate on who's more entitled.

If entitlement is a positive, including virtues like hard work and assertiveness in negotiations, suddenly it's not a "debate victory" to label men the entitled party. If you get my gist here. Maybe you're ok with that though OP.

relationshipdownvote · 2015-09-14T00:20:30+00:00

However, my point is that men feel more entitled to more pay for the same amount of work than women.

TIL negotiation is entitlement.

dakru · 2015-09-14T00:18:31+00:00

Men are more likely to see dates with more desirable partners as their courtship entitlement; that is, they are more likely to put themselves forward as potential dates for my (fictive) ad placers when, an independent panel of judges determined, they would not be deemed sufficiently desirable partners for them.

I don't understand this one. Why does responding to someone's ad get interpreted as entitlement to that person? Entitlement would be something we'd see in their reaction if they get rejected (getting angry and being rude, for example).

[deleted] · 2015-09-14T00:30:11+00:00

I don't think that this gender difference is because we socialize men to be more entitled. Rather I think it is a biological result of men being more competitive in nature.

Yeah, this is also what I think. FWIW (and I don't offer this as 'proof') my experience is that men are generally more entitled than women. I find that it's men who tend to get righteously angry when they don't get something (raise, girlfriend, grade etc.) they want and women who tend to blame themselves for not getting that thing. Has this been a 100% black and white gender split? No, and I don't base my interactions with individual men on these experiences either. The men who I've come across who seem 'entitled' haven't been many in number, but there have been more of them than women.

beachbloke · 2015-09-14T01:56:48+00:00

Men feel more entitled to higher salaries. Now most people agree that when controlling for other variables such as career choice and time taken off work, the wage gap is much smaller than 77 cents on the dollar. It's more like 95 cents on the dollar. But what is the reason for this 5 cent difference? Women don't negotiate as well. Why? For the same amount of work, women believe that they are owed less than men do. Men feel entitled to more money, so they find it easier to negotiate higher salaries. There is nothing wrong with this of course, actually men have it right. They should fight for the most money that they can possibly get. However, my point is that men feel more entitled to more pay for the same amount of work than women. Source Men feel more entitled to better grades for less effort. A collection of students were asked how much they agree or disagree with statements of the following type. "The instructor of this class should bend the rules for me" "The instructor in this class should modify course requirements to help me." "I should only be required to do a minimal amount of thinking to get an A in this class." " I would confront the instructor in this class to argue about my grade. " Men were reported to more strongly agree with these statements than women. To quote the article...

These do not indicate entitlement. Entitlement is thinking you have a right to something. If you demand something you have an entitlement to it. Men did not demand the things in the studies you listed. However, men did pursue without shame. The attributes these studies indicate is that men pursue what they want and women do not. Women are more passive. I just read something about that in another thread... https://www.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/3kpgpe/question_for_women_of_all_pills_how_often_are_you/ ... women do not make advances on their desires and hate being rejected. Men do and are less concerned about rejection. This is red pill theory.

Drenzard · 2015-09-14T03:49:05+00:00

Entitlement is all but arbitrary and abstract if not reduced to wanting something, but being unable to acquire it. That's all entitlement is. If someone is able to get what he wants, he is no longer "entitled" to it because he manged to accomplish it.

When you deconstruct semantics, there is absolutely no objective difference between wanting something that you fail at getting and thinking you "deserve" something that you don't have. How much you think you need to work is irrelevant, if people could only work for things as much as they think realistically, everyone would be a demi-god waving his hands to spawn things.

I'd absolutely love that. I think every woman I meet should have sex with me too. Entitlement? I don't think any man wouldn't want that if it was a possible, or any woman with the reverse for that matter.

What happens in practice is what matters. I think I'm "entitled" to a raise for no reason. I ask the boss for a raise, the boss thinks there's no problem with doing it, I get the raise. By definition I am no longer entitled, as I was already granted what I wanted. I earned it by succeeding in my endeavor. But let's say I work what seems to me to be pretty hard, and I ask the boss for a raise, and for whatever reason the boss doesn't think I deserve it yet. But I am absolutely convinced I do, so now I'm "entitled" to a raise, as long as I am not given it but think I should receive it.

hippydipster · 2015-09-14T13:16:45+00:00

The word "entitled" was already well on it's way to having no meaning whatsoever, but this paragraph:

Now most people agree that when controlling for other variables such as career choice and time taken off work, the wage gap is much smaller than 77 cents on the dollar. It's more like 95 cents on the dollar. But what is the reason for this 5 cent difference? Women don't negotiate as well. Why? For the same amount of work, women believe that they are owed less than men do. Men feel entitled to more money, so they find it easier to negotiate higher salaries. There is nothing wrong with this of course, actually men have it right. They should fight for the most money that they can possibly get. However, my point is that men feel more entitled to more pay for the same amount of work than women.

Put the nail in the coffin. Does Macy's feel "entitled" to more money for their items than Walmart? Does this question have any meaning? Nope.

dakru · 2015-09-14T00:12:11+00:00

The important question is what comes after entitlement. The male response to quelling this entitlement is TRP. Learn to be a better man, learn how to get what you want from women sexually, and learn how to deflect their bullshit.

The female response to their own entitlement (which is just as potent in its own way)? Feminism. Bring down the bar across the board. Make it so that the average woman feels entitled to be fat, promiscuous, masculine, crude, etc. That way men will have no choice but to date down and every woman wins!

AnOldRichDude · 2015-09-14T05:16:39+00:00

I don't think you and I think of entitlement the same way. When I think of entitlement, I generally follow the definition in that it's the belief that one is inherently deserving of privileges or special treatment.

Negotiating one's salary based on what your value is or trying to find the best partner you can find doesn't make you entitled, it's just trying to get the maximum value for your efforts.

Your classroom example is possibly a better one, although having seen the way boys are treated in modern elementary schools, I am not so sure they don't need some re-balancing.

MorpheusGodOfDreams · 2015-09-14T06:14:51+00:00

again with the definitions. this is not at all what entitlement means.

ee4m · 2015-09-14T06:55:47+00:00

It's more like 95 cents on the dollar

That doesn't control for womens earlier retirement , womens retirement is 6 years before mens .

6 years is more than 5% of a working life .

The belief that women are entitled to get 25% more despite not doing the work, while women get more than that 25% from men anyway and despite the fact most shops are dedicated to women because they have the most disposable income is common .

ianiemasns · 2015-09-14T11:25:54+00:00

Men feel entitled to more money, so they find it easier to negotiate higher salaries.

No. Wrong.

Men need to make more money, because a man's value rests more on his earnings than a woman's value does.

You are so incredibly off base it's laughable.

[deleted] · 2015-09-14T19:19:57+00:00

Men feel more entitled to better grades for less effort.

This one was particularly an interesting read. That's so funny. So I wonder if all this entitlement talk is just projection.

[deleted] · 2015-09-14T04:45:23+00:00

Men are more willing to take risks, be embarrassed, be denied, or be rejected to get the things they want

Men feel more entitled to higher salaries.

Men feel more entitled to better grades for less effort.

Men feel more entitled to desirable mates.

If you aren't, you aren't doing it right. Just make sure you can back it up

99_Problem · 2015-09-14T04:41:19+00:00

Everybody wants to fuck and date up. I mean, if the opposite were true that would be stupid. Gender doesn't make a difference.

It's that women actually have more success doing that than men do, in general.

ExpendableOne · 2015-09-14T16:36:25+00:00

It's more like 95 cents on the dollar.

If you control for all factors, single women tend to actually make more than single men(i'd argue that is due to special treatment but I don't really have the data to go into it). It's only when looking at married men and women that you notice men making more money than women. However, this has nothing to do with "being entitled to more money". This has everything to do with the expectations placed on men to be providers, and the general social status that is attributed to men for supporting a woman. Men aren't entitled to a higher pay, men work harder and longer to be paid more(and, I'd also argue that married men would often be given priority over single men because that also establishes social worth, as well as a certain level of maturity and dependency).

A collection of students were asked how much they agree or disagree with statements of the following type. "The instructor of this class should bend the rules for me" "The instructor in this class should modify course requirements to help me." "I should only be required to do a minimal amount of thinking to get an A in this class." " I would confront the instructor in this class to argue about my grade. "

Could it be that, maybe, these would be the kind of statements you would find more mature/established students making? Maybe the kind of statements you'd find people who are paying for their own educations out of pocket, and therefore believe they should be seeing some kind of value/return for the education they are paying beyond the piece of paper they get at the end? Maybe this is the kind of statement you'd see from people who are more motivated to do well than others? Maybe they are the kind of statements people who are more assertive might be more willing to make?

Confronting your instructor for every grade you get is either an issue of fairness(if you are smart and concious enough to realize that your teacher/marker is giving you an unfair mark, or you can clearly see that the marker didn't put any time into actually marking your work, than you should argue that mark. At the very worse, it costs nothing and you always have the potential to increase your mark. People who do not argue for marks are people who are clearly indifferent to their own success.

Men are more likely to see dates with more desirable partners as their courtship entitlement; that is, they are more likely to put themselves forward as potential dates for my (fictive) ad placers when, an independent panel of judges determined, they would not be deemed sufficiently desirable partners for them.

Wait... so because a guy thinks he has value, despite what other people who don't know him decide to judge him for, he is entitled? Really? Wtf kind of bullshit is that honestly? Do you know how offensive that kind of message would be considered to be when expressed to women? "Hey, those 5 people over there think you're not attractive, so you ain't worth shit".

Men score higher in general on narcissistic entitlement.

The previous assertions over desirability seem to indicate otherwise.

[deleted] · 2015-09-14T22:09:48+00:00

The word 'entitlement' is stupid. People acting like folks are not entitled to basic human treatment.

Xemnas81 · 2015-09-16T00:33:56+00:00

If you're a low value beta/omega then you're automatically entitled and narcissistic in women's books these days for speaking, particularly in feminist's eyes

Sepean · 2015-09-14T11:08:22+00:00

Yes, putting in more effort to win is being entitled. ^/s

discoFalston · 2015-09-14T02:15:21+00:00

All great points and very well represented. I hate the word 'entitled' when talking about any specific demographics, (black white, gay straight, male female etc) however, I think the drive to achieve in men does attribute to a lot of feelings of 'entitlement' as you describe it.

I have to say though, one could compile an endless list of what both sexes are entitled to and or feel entitled to and argue about it for 10 years straight, but that's an exercise in futility. It's a pissing contest.

I think what's important for both sides to recognize is:

1) Men hold more power in society as far as politics and professional environments, but they are subject to stress from higher standards.

2) Women hold less power in these areas but can get away with performing at a much lower level, therefor aren't subject to the same levels of stress.

3) Generally in dating, women are the gate keepers of sex, men are the gate keepers of commitment.

4) And in dating as well, men are less likely have access to sex and relationships, while women are more likely to get cheated on.

Ying and yang. Bingo bango bongo.

Title	CMV: Men are more entitled than women.
Author	[deleted]
Upvotes	14
Comments	98
Date	September 13, 2015 11:50 PM UTC (10 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/PurplePillDebate
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/3kufn4/cmv_men_are_more_entitled_than_women/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/PurplePillDebate/cmv-men-are-more-entitled-than-women.279630 https://theredarchive.com/post/279630

Comments