CMV: TRP not accepting the existence of rape culture/female harassment exacerbates the problem more than addresses it.

dragoness_leclerq · 2015-07-31T00:51:11+00:00

There is no "rape culture" soooo...........

kkjdroid · 2015-07-31T00:24:39+00:00

Guys have thick skin and generally shake things off. We're online. 99% of what I read on here is not to be taken seriously. If I'm uncomfortable, I shut off the monitor.

TRP almost encourages these kinds of behaviors. TRP tries to tell people that women are predictable and animalistic in behavior, so its members will accept that being assertive and dominant in their approach to women is the only realistic way to "get with them", so to speak.

Your perception of TRP is flawed, but that's another topic. Give me a specific examples of how TRP contributes to female harassment online or in the real world.

lasagnaman · 2015-07-31T00:35:02+00:00

Never heard of /r/letsnotmeet but /r/creepypms is basically /r/thathappened. Next are you gonna say /r/NiceGuys, /r/askwomen, and /r/TwoX are shining bastions of truth? Here's a thought, maybe by trivializing actual harassment, stalking, and rape but over saturating the market for it with these bullshit claims followed by auto-belief and hugfests is exacerbating the problem. You literally go out and tell people that rape IS normal because 1/10 men are doing it and anyone with half a brain know that not one in ten men are sexual deviants. Maybe if feminists took the problem seriously, a real solution could be had.

nomdplume · 2015-07-31T00:53:20+00:00

but won't admit that TRP almost encourages these kinds of behaviors.

How do they do that?

I've read some of TRP (and a lot of the RP source material), and I've never gotten the impression that harassment is a good idea, ever. If it comes to saying "Next!" or harassing, you should always say "Next!" long before you start finding ways to harass a woman. Real harassment will 86 a guys sex life in any social circle/circumstance faster than almost anything else.

its members will accept that being assertive and dominant in their approach to women is the only realistic way to "get with them"

I've rarely ever gotten with a woman without taking assertive action, and being "dominant" is a way of being, it's not a thing you "do" or a specific action you take.

Those times that I didn't have to take assertive action to get sex were the times that a woman was of lower SMV than I was and she threw herself at me. The sex wasn't bad, mind you, but I wouldn't have wanted to rely on those women for my sex/love/relationship life.

try to imagine the male uproar if there was a female equivalent to TRP for women describing men as animals with no emotions, histories, feelings or the like

I don't have to imagine. Where do you think the male outrage on TRP comes from? What do you think made me (decades ago) start really rethinking how fucked up the current sexual dynamic structure was?

I was ashamed of my sexuality for most of my younger years (until I finally "swallowed the Red Pill" - long before there was an "official" Red Pill to swallow - about two and a half decades in). Men were "pigs" and "dogs" and "animals" for "sexually objectifying" women (i.e., being turned on by a woman's body, and not by her "inner beauty"). My dick was nothing more than a weapon that could/would hurt, degrade, sully, dishonor, whatever any woman that it touched, unless I really loved said woman with all my heart and was willing to treat her like the super-special snowflake she was.

Yeah, social shaming of men's "animalistic impulses" has been a thing for a long time now. Never mind that male sexuality is just as complex and important to a man as female sexuality is to a woman. There is nothing objectively more noble, spiritual, or pure about a woman's sexuality over a man's, and yet that's what many (many) men were brought up to believe (and most still do).

all of the posts are about exploiting men's weaknesses in order to dominate them.

Holy crap! Really? Do you read any dating/marriage guide directed at women? It's all about how to work on men to get what you want from them.

IIRC, The Rules was a big hit a couple of decades ago, and it launched an entire "Here's how to exploit men's weaknesses to get what you want" genre of dating advice.

There is a ton of that kind of stuff out there. Now, I'm not really up in arms about it - some of it I actually appreciate. But it's not like "exploiting men's weaknesses" isn't a commonly discussed phenomenon.

ECoast_Man · 2015-07-31T04:38:00+00:00

This is the same dribble feminists harp over and over about.

None of these stories even if true suggest that rape is normalized and accepted as a result of the patriarchy dominating society, which is the definition of rape culture.

Cat calls? Are you serious? That's not forced sex. Ass slapping is not forced sex. Dick pics, which is the most egregiously tame example you give, are not forced sex.

I'm not saying any of these are great but this is not rape culture. Cat calls today I have no sympathy for because they're pussies, 'hey beautiful! Give me a smile'. That's not even offensive, it's a compliment.

I have been sent boob shots, and have had my junk grabbed more than once at bars when the drunk bachelorette party strolls in. It's not rape culture, so stop pretending these stories are even close to normalized rape which might exist in the slums of South Africa or better yet, most of the Middle East.

Aerobus · 2015-07-31T00:17:32+00:00

1

The amount of women whining about dick pics is overblown on social media sites like reddit. Even if they are bombarded by unsolicited pictures, it is not the end of the world.

I've gotten messages from trolls to kill myself. Do you know what I do? I block the user and move on in life. It's called having a thick skin. Women should try that. What's that? Women can't have a thick skin? They are too emotional to act like a mature adult? Oh, I guess TRP is right again in treating them like children then.

2

There is no rape culture.

To the women that actually believe that the west (U.S., western Europe, Canada) actually has a rape culture, I have one simple and friendly message for you.

Please pack your bags and travel to ISIS-occupied Syria. Go there, without a male to accompany you, and surrender yourself to the militants. Come back (if you can) in a year and tell me if you still believe that in the west rape culture exists. Here's an even better suggestion: send your daughters there. I dare you to.

Edit: Yes, keep downvoting. Have your feelings hurt about the fact that you can't come up with a logical counterargument. You are proving my point.

Xemnas81 · 2015-07-31T00:04:30+00:00

If they called it sexual harassment culture then fine because men do sexually harass quite a bit but there is not an epidemic of men raping women for god's sake also women rape men too but women are always heard first and men have to man up so no one talks about it.

f3yleaf · 2015-07-31T02:15:37+00:00

We are often dealing with people who deny sexual dimorphism in humans, I dont think we would get far by partly accepting their feels/anecdote based world view, even if they are not always totally wrong its not worth the effort.

PPD is more useful for people who have a fact based world view but think TRP is too pessimistic and/or drawing the wrong conclusions.

Pew did a comprehensive study on online harassment, but it seems many feminists think the facts were incorrect(males get more death threats) because it just all feels so much more oppressive for women or whatever, if people cant defend their position with hard facts then why bother, did that shit with creationists for years, not going thru it again with feminists.

Until I see convincing proof that can be understood without filtering it thru an ideology I will put patriachy theory and rape culture in the conspiracy theory box, because thats what it looks like.

DietCokeImOnMyKnees · 2015-07-31T00:43:33+00:00

LL of the young women that I know in my life (sister, cousins, friends, previous SO, co-workers) have at least one firsthand experience of male harassment or sexual assault. They all have stories of they themselves being cat-called (sometimes when I'm with them) and/or harassed both in person or online, whether they were stalked or touched inappropriately.

This is the strongest point. I don't see how anyone can really deny that women get harassed and unwanted attention far more than men.

Much of this behaviour is by men who are so desperate and frustrated this is the only way they can think to interact with women. The Red Pill can help. It's all about giving them the tools to interact with women in an effective way. I've never ever heard a Red Piller recommend cat calling or sending dick pics. They do however, emphasise an abundance mentality where instead of obsessing over women (which leads to this dangerous behaviour) you should internalise that there are plenty of women out there, and that you should move on quickly if one particular woman isn't interested.

The red pill doesn't talk about this problem much, because it is a "sexual strategy sub for men." However, it would be nice for Red Pillers of PPD to acknowledge that yes; harassment of women is a real problem.
Blue pill man, I think your concern is that TRP often says negative things about women, and suggests nasty things like dread game and "treating women like children." I don't like these particular facets of TRP, but I don't think they are related to harassment and assault of women. These are manipulative techniques for interacting with women who are already voluntarily interacting with you. This doesn't overlap much with the outright harassment of strangers.
The feminist narrative is that it's all part of a broader mindset of mysogyny and patriarchal entitlement. I'd urge you to re-consider that narrative, which whilst partially correct, is simplistic. Many angry men posting on TRP are not the sort of bullies that harass women. Their experiences with women have been so bad because they have been conditioned to be terrified of their sexuality and paranoid that anything attempt to approach women could make them a creep or sex offender. Some of the men that harass women are influenced by mysogyny/entitlement, but a big part of it is they are just bullies. They are the same men who harass other men. They are impulsive, un-empathetic people for a whole lot of reasons unrelated to sexual politics.

White_Phillip · 2015-07-31T02:48:10+00:00

You're argument falls apart when it comes to your lack of understanding of what TRP is. There was recently a great post about online game. I read through and didn't see him a single time say to send dick pics or threaten to rape her. I checked, just in case it was hidden there somewhere.

Tell me about all the times you've seen TRP say "if you want her attention, yell at her across the street and say how hot she is."

Tell me about the times we said you should follow a woman home for miles to try and get her number.

Tell me about how we tell men to never let a woman go who rejects him and to keep trying to get it. It's not like "move on and forget it" is frequent advice.

TRP preaches abundance, confidence, assertiveness (not aggression), outcome independence, and self improvement. None of those lend themselves. I would argue if more men were truly red pill, the amount of really creepy stuff men do would drop tremendously.

RedPill115 · 2015-07-31T04:20:19+00:00

but won't admit that TRP almost encourages these kinds of behaviors

There's another source of "these behaviors" - any romance movie in the last 10 years aimed at a female audience. If you count "harrassment", rather than "assault", pretty much forever.

I don't even have to do 50 Shades of Grey. Guy refuses to take No for an answer, obsesses over a woman despite her repeatedly telling him to go away and that she has a fiance? Just watch "The Notebook" - a movie from around the time the actor playing the guy behaving like this became a feminist icon.

Women live 5 years longer than men on average in western society (actually down from 7-8 years longer in the 70's). Men are 3x more likely to be murdered than women are. The list is huge and goes on and on where men have it far worse - jail, homelessness, serious or fatal on the job injury, etc etc etc.

The fact is, women continue to enjoy being the protected gender. Their safety is more highly prioritized then men's is, their safety is taken more seriously by society, they live longer and violence against them is considered far less acceptable than if they were a man.

The truth is - women are afraid of being killed by a man, men are far more likely to be killed by a man than a woman is, but men are not allowed to be afraid of it. I know a girl who was raped, and a girl who was killed. Guess who was able to eventually recover from it, and who was not?

The entire system is a group of privileged women complaining loudly about their less-serious problems compared to men in equivalent situations. Fact is, as shitty or shittier things happen to men, it's just not considered manly to constantly complain about them, and no one cares as much when they happen vs women. The entire reason there are all these stories is exactly because women being threatened is taken far more seriously than it is when men get similar treatment.

scrantonic1ty · 2015-07-31T07:27:12+00:00

We don't live in a rape culture. The concept is ridiculous. Rape is considered arguably the most heinous crime one can commit barring murder, and anyone publicly accused of it can have their reputation destroyed regardless of guilt/innocence.

Due to the nature of the crime, it's incredibly difficult to convict, and the process of achieving conviction will be stressful for the victim because they have to recount the experience because that is the way the law works. It has to be proven beyond reasonable doubt that the victim was raped by the accused, and so the victim's account must be rigourously scrutinised.

exit_sandman · 2015-07-31T09:54:55+00:00

As harsh as it sounds - that's something women will simply have to live with. It's an unwated side-effect of our intergender dynamics, but practically built due to our sexual dimorphism.

Women enjoy a copious amount of upsides due to being the desired sex: A completely unremarkable woman can skate through life thanks to having a vagina in her teens and 20s (or do you think she would get all those dates, invitations, free drinks and rides etc. if she was a guy?), and continue skating through life thanks to having a vagina and a womb from her 20s onwards. Even considerably below average women can have a rich sex life and also a romantic life (as long as they're realistic about what they can get), both without doing much except being receptive to the guys whose attention they've caught (and, again, being realistic). The downsides, however, are all sorts of sexual victimization that also come with being the desired sex.

As a guy maybe you don't have to fear unwanted attention, but you have to fear a similarly unwanted complete lack of attention and are under a constant pressure to perform in order to register. On the romantic theater, a guy has nowhere near the ease a girl enjoys - and tbh in the past I would have gladly traded in the absence of harrassment and my ability to walk home alone at night for reliable romantic attention from the opposite sex.

So I argue that it's not rape culture what we have - it's a crappy built-in feature. Sure, you can engineer a culture that revolves entirely around men doing everything in their power to not discomfort women at all cost, and that indoctrinates boys from an early age that they should behave in a certain way (though it's not as if our society didn't already do it), and crashes down so harshly on unsolicited sexual attention that harrassment shrinks to an all-time low. Just formulate a modest proposal for it, I think Sweden would be receptive to the idea.

Cool, sexual victimization will go down. However, you'll have even more white knights, nice guys, awkward guys, guys who don't dare to speak to women who are frozen in fear. Guys who grow up feeling like that will become pretty common - and not all of them will take it in stride all their lives. If you think 100k redpillers are bad, imagine tens of millions of them, because that's how they will turn out when the pitcher finally breaks.

damnmaster · 2015-07-31T12:03:40+00:00

I would say a country like India has a rape culture, India is a country where rape is normalized and not seen as a bad thing. Women there lose court proceedings and their entire lives because people feel rape there is ok.

This is not the case in USA and most first world countries, we put away rapists for life or with death sentences. In our literature and films, rapists either always get punished or are seen as villains not heroes. We don't glorify rape as something fun or ok to do and we have rape helplines for victims.

Just because there are murders and robberies does it mean we have a robbery culture or a murder culture. In fact, media often sensationalises both yet we don't break down into some dystopia society.

Yes there are people who sexually harass women, yes there are guys who do send creepy texts and feel they are entitled to women. And there will always be those frat dudes who make sexual/sexist jokes about women in a crude and demeaning manner, but none of these are crimes nor are they seen as ok things to do by the general populace. We don't embrace rape and a normal thing.

The usual definition of TRP is that TRP is the tool, it just depends how you use it. You can use it for "good" (betterment of yourself) or bad (bully women into having sex with you) and it basically explores all options with no censor. There is no rule about what is too much, you make that rule, you decide when you want to stop and when you want to keep going. Which of course such uncontrolled ideas can lead to future rapists and so on. But the argument can be made that no one should be allowed to decided what we should and should not think about.

I do believe it is unfair that women are treated terribly and that many still have to go through being sexually harassed and assaulted in public. But a full blown rape epidemic? No I don't think that's actually happening.

alcockell · 2015-07-31T02:09:42+00:00

TRP tries to tell people that women are predictable and animalistic in behavior, so its members will accept that being assertive and dominant in their approach to women is the only realistic way to "get with them"

And that doesn't include "being creepy", "cat-call" "writing stupid messages", "sending unwanted dick pics" or "stalking." Go, TRP.

ALL of the young women that I know in my life (sister, cousins, friends, previous SO, co-workers) have at least one firsthand experience of male harassment or sexual assault.

ALL of the men I know in my life have at least one firsthand experience of violence. Physically attacked by strangers who just wanted to beat somebody up.

Do we live in a "violence culture"?

[deleted] · 2015-07-31T02:20:17+00:00

I'm willing to admit that a lot of women suffer sexual harassment. I'm sure it sucks.

I don't think there's any good answers to it either. The world is a very big place and there are a lot of scumbags in it. So what are you gonna do? Rape is already a crime and people do go to jail for it.

But even if women do suffer sexual harassment that doesn't justify the term "rape culture" and Feminisms demonization of men at large. Before you go on saying, "but TRP demonizes women", let's keep things in perspective. TRP pales in comparison to Feminism.

Honestly, sexual harassment is a problem but let's be reasonable about it. It's not the worst thing in the world to get catcalled or have unwanted advances. If it happens to you, it's up to you to stick up for yourself. You don't need a goddamn movement against all men.

alreadyredschool · 2015-07-31T10:07:12+00:00

I know not a single person in my life free from online harassment.

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