CMV dragging along friendzoned guys is just emotional plate-spinning.

wazzup987 · 2015-01-29T00:39:27+00:00

Friendzoning come from a lack of honesty on either side depending on the context. Either way it suck for all involved.

SOwED · 2015-01-29T00:44:45+00:00

You tend to be emotionally invested in your friends...as they reciprocate emotion back...

Petticoat_Rule · 2015-01-29T00:08:46+00:00

Unanswerable as you didn't set up any scenarios.

A man can plate-spin willing women who are also plate-spinning.

A woman can have orbiters she doesn't want and can't get rid of (and is too polite to tell them to eff off). Or, she genuinely thinks they are her friends and doesn't realize they want more.

rackmerackyou · 2015-01-29T05:00:34+00:00

With beta orbiters, girls have multiple guys emotionally invested in them, with little to no physical reciprocation. reciprocation

Assuming that you view relationships as transactions (not that I necessarily disagree), why should a woman reciprocate a "beta orbiters" emotions with sex? Furthermore, if a woman invests emotions into a "beta orbiter" (TRP calls this person an "emotional tampon"), and the guy invests emotions in her as well, why is she expected to have sex with him?

Emotions for emotions, yeah?

Friendzoning implies the female intentionally accepting positive attention from orbiters while realizing it's on the pretense of a possible physical relationship, but I think it is more common that the female doesn't know because beta orbiters often don't ever say anything explicit about their feelings, and many girls see the positive attention as "he's just a sweet guy"

Good. This sounds more fair. However, the title of your CMV uses the word "dragging", which makes it sounds like the woman in question is doing something intentionally (inb4 "tone policing" -- it's about clarification).

I guess my question to you, if you want to have your view challenged, is: do you expect women to have sex with any guy that invests emotions in her -- whether initially solicited or not?

Actually, I guess a more basic question I have is: do you view emotional plate-spinning as something positive or negative?

SirNemesis · 2015-01-29T05:56:11+00:00

Yeah this is one of the key RP tenets so I can't really try to change your view. Sorry.

nomdplume · 2015-01-29T05:55:37+00:00

I think it is more common that the female doesn't know because beta orbiters often don't ever say anything explicit about their feelings, and many girls see the positive attention as "he's just a sweet guy"

Come on. That's bullshit.

Females know when a male likes them. They're more cunning than you think. To deny them this agency is actually more harmful than admitting that they are deliberately stringing men along.

chazzALB · 2015-01-29T00:00:04+00:00

Sure, why not.

Friend-zoning is such a ridiculous concept though...

cxj · 2015-01-29T02:05:17+00:00

Agreed, and in both situations the orbit/plate can just walk away from the situation at any time.

speed3_freak · 2015-01-29T02:02:17+00:00

While I basically agree with this thought there are a few differences. If there is no relationship desired by the "plate" she is just a fuck buddy. If there is no sexual desire by the guy then he is just a friend. Women tend to be a lot more up front with what they want and will ask over and over again for some kind of reaffirmation that the whole plate thing is moving towards a relationship.

Guys know the difference between a plate and a FB nearly all the time. When the plate realizes that she will not get the relationship she desires she will break off sexual contact. This is why they call them plates. You can spin many at a time, but eventually almost all plates will fall. Thus is why abundance mentality is important, and why lots of guys will always try to have more than one.

On the other hand, men will fill the orbiter role indefinitely. Guys can be very insecure about telling the girl how they really feel because they are afraid of damaging the relationship. That being said, women will often just think of someone who has been friend zoned simply as a friend because she isn't aware of the sexual desire.

exit_sandman · 2015-01-29T10:44:08+00:00

Even though top level-responses in CMV-threads should be challenging the OP, it would probably be helpful to first agree on what friendzoning is and isn't, because far too often these topics fail because two sides have to very different ideas of what it's about.

I've made a quite extensive post regarding the specifics of friendzoning some time ago. Thoughts?

This will be longer (I will stick to the more common version with the man in the friendzone here).

What is friendzoning and what are the potential consequences? Being in a friendzone means being in a platonic relationship with feelings of a one-sided infatuation (ala unrequited love) involved. The friendzone can be a very close friendship, where the guy is treated as some kind of surrogate boyfriend, or just a relationship where he is orbitting her. The motivations may also vary - sometimes the woman is genuinely appreciating what she considers a great, possibly even perfect friendship (and rationalizes away any doubts that it's actually only her who is happy the way it is); sometimes she is unapologetically exploiting him as and only uses him when she needs something.

The man is investing into the relationship (emotionally, socially, materially...) to convince her of the sincerity of his feelings and in hope of her recognizing it and reciprocating. And while she accepts these investments with little to no hesitation (accepts his gifts, gets attention and validation from him, may even become jealous if he drifts away from her because of another girl etc.) and usually is on some level aware of his feelings (or is acutely aware after he finally came forward, but managed to convince him to accept a friendship instead), she never intends to reciprocate.

It's comparable to the friends-with-benefits-zone for a woman - she is having sex with a man she desires in the hope of being able to make him fall for her. He is accepting the sex, but despite being aware of her feelings, he never intends to upgrade their relationship. However, I rarely hear of men engaging in that kind of behavior and that they're guilt-tripping their plates into staying with them ("this ~~friendship~~ purely sexual relationship means so much to me", "let's just be ~~friends~~ fuckbuddies", "you are the only one who ~~understands~~ satisfies me", "maybe I'll develop feelings" etc.).

Now you may argue that a guy shouldn't expect to make a girl fall in love with him by just "being nice" to her (aka investing in her), but this ignores the responsibility of the woman who gladly accepts all the perks of that arrangement but never intends to honor his expectations on the one hand or to really and ultimately disabuse him of his notions (and is actually somewhat problematic because this basically means "if he is helpful and considerate, it's his fault if he is taken advantage of").

Besides, it ignores the fact that the guy's emotional investment and the psychological toll unrequited love may have on a person. Here's an interesting study about this: http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/07/100722142201.htm

"This brain imaging study of individuals who were still 'in love' with their rejecter supplies further evidence that the passion of 'romantic love' is a goal-oriented motivation state, rather than a specific emotion" the researchers concluded, noting that brain imaging showed some similarities between romantic rejection and cocaine craving.

"The findings are consistent with the hypothesis that romantic love is a specific form of addiction."

The study also helps to explain "why feelings and behaviors related to romantic rejection are difficult to control" and "why extreme behaviors associated with romantic rejection such as stalking, homicide, suicide, and clinical depression occur in cultures all over the world", the researchers wrote.

In the context of the friendzone this essentially means that a person who would be better off "going cold turkey" (i.e. cutting contact with his love interest to get out of the state where he is emotionally invested) has instead a perspective of friendship and by extension the hope of a romantic relationship (though this only exists in his head) dangled in front of his nose; which to someone who is hopelessly in love is like giving the junkie the promise of a shot and periodically giving him a bit just to keep him on the hook. Basically, it's actively trying to prevent someone from recovering when all he could do to become better was being left alone and coming to terms with the fact that the best available option for him would be without her.

What isn't friendzoning? Well, generally a woman isn't responsible for the well-being of every person who falls for her as long as she doesn't actively try to profit from it.

A woman who, once she is reasonably certain that a guy has fallen for her, freezes out of that relationship out of her own accord because she considers the situation too awkward and is realistic about the odds of him being able to live with a mere friendship, isn't friendzoning. She accepts that it doesn't work out if her friend won't get what he desires (a romantic relationship), so she in turn doesn't try to coax him into the type of relationship she desires (a platonic friendship). It might hurt, but she doesn't try to take advantage of him.

A woman who has an admirer she isn't that close in the first place to, and whose potential for tokens of affection into a relationship she doesn't exploit (i.e. she doesn't use him for favors, as an emotional tampon etc.), isn't friendzoning either. As I said above, she isn't responsible for the feelings of every guy who is falling for her.

And finally, she should at least have a clue. Of course deniability becomes less and less plausible the more attentive, generous and self-sacrificing the orbiter is, but sometimes women are indeed really oblivious (and don't even harbor any remote suspicions) about what's going on. Two real life-examples:

a friend of mine at college (who already had a boyfriend) had a guy friend whom she was regularly hanging out with. Now at one point he had invited her to accompany her to a concert of a band she liked and she was indeed willing to go, but a missent SMS made it clear that he was actually into her. She was dumbstruck because she hadn't expected that, and she had never displayed any dissatisfaction with her relationship. I (being very familiar with the dynamics of friendzone relationships) suggested that she shouldn't take him up on his offer and also abstain from accepting any further "gifts" from him if she didn't want to send mixed messages, and while she mumbled something along the lines of "hmm, you're probably right..." she still was sorely tempted despite knowing what she was getting into - "but it's a concert from band XYZ...". Mind you, she was a perfectly sweet person, yet she also perfectly willing to milk the situation for what it was worth (I have to say that I was rather disappointed in her). Up to that point, I wouldn't have blamed her for anything, but after that it would have been on her.
a girl I knew was regularly hanging out with a (really handsome) Norvegian exchange student who was taking her to movies, theaters etc. where he was paying. As she told us and kinda complained that she didn't know where she was with him (I assume that she was insecure because he was somewhat out of her league looks-wise), and as I flat-out told her that guys don't regularly take mere platonic friends to outings on their dime and that she can be pretty certain that he's into her, but also that he won't make the last step (as I said, he was from Norway, i.e. a country with a very strong "don't be that guy"-culture). Judging from the way she beamed once hearing that, it is safe to assume that she up until that point indeed had no real clue what he was up to (though the sad part is that I don't even know whether it worked out at least temporary between the two of them). So yeah, no friendzoning here either.

PostNationalism · 2015-01-29T00:59:57+00:00

Women don't need to friendzone guys to keep their options open..

yearsgoby · 2015-01-29T17:19:47+00:00

I am not a fan of hidden contracts. Unfortunately, there are many hidden contracts involved in most cases of friendzoning, in my experience.

The female thinks the guy is a friend and is not aware that she is dragging him along or that he has not recognized that he is and always will be just a friend. This is similar to a plate who secretly thinks her gentleman is going to marry her even though he has said otherwise.

If the man being friendzoned and/or the woman acting as a friend do not share their expectations and are operating under beliefs with no basis in reality, then I think it is equivalent.

SOwED · 2015-01-30T06:05:00+00:00

I can't change your view because you're right.

Friendzoning implies the female intentionally accepting positive attention from orbiters while realizing it's on the pretense of a possible physical relationship, but I think it is more common that the female doesn't know because beta orbiters often don't ever say anything explicit about their feelings, and many girls see the positive attention as "he's just a sweet guy"

That's bullshit however, I've known women who do this, they absolutely know.

YourLocalNeckbeard · 2015-01-29T18:30:36+00:00

my good sir, I feel I am an expert on this topic as I have been friendzoned by nearly every woman I have ever met. Hot women do not seem to understand that they must LOWER THEIR PHYSICAL STANDARDS. I may not be good-looking but I deserve a good-looking woman because I am nice and intelligent, and can come up with FAR more profound quotes/ideas than some jock douche. And yet, each woman I meet is mildly nice to me, gives me signals that she wants me (like saying hi to me and waving) and then REFUSES to allow me access to her body. Such is an injustice. In my ideal world this would never happen and it would be the intelligent, chivalrous men who had harems of women (only hot ones). Women today are so shallow and bitchy if they can't see us for what we are and date a NICE guy.

Bakerofpie · 2015-01-29T01:12:28+00:00

As /u/wazzup987 said, "friend zoning" is an issue that stems from dishonesty from one or both parties. The only way it could be compared to plate spinning is if we assume either a.) the woman in question is being completely clear with her orbiters that she is not and will never be interested in a relationship with them, or b.) the male to whom we are comparing her is not honest with the women he dates and leads them to believe that they have a shot at getting his commitment.

l_____o_____l · 2015-01-29T10:42:35+00:00

Your view is conditional on you not believing in platonic friendships. For anyone who does, your view is laughable.

A guy who gets friendzoned is either being dishonest (not expressing his true intentions, ie. romantic) or has no self-respect (has expressed his intentions, been rejected, and not taken the hint and moved on).

No-one to blame but himself.

Title	CMV dragging along friendzoned guys is just emotional plate-spinning.
Author	SOwED
Upvotes	11
Comments	106
Date	January 28, 2015 11:47 PM UTC (11 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/PurplePillDebate
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/2u0sug/cmv_dragging_along_friendzoned_guys_is_just/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/PurplePillDebate/cmv-dragging-along-friendzoned-guys-is-just.283671 https://theredarchive.com/post/283671

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