TRP says that aloofness and holding frame fosters attraction in women. So why don't women find the fact that Christian Grey is a needy crybaby repulsive?

YetAnotherCommenter · 2015-01-27T13:48:25+00:00

I agree with you.

The simple fact about 50 Shades is that its a female power fantasy. Yes, she's "the sub" and he's "the dom" but the entire point of the book is he needs her and he'll do anything for her. This is the essence of female power under the traditional gender roles; the ability to enlist male agency through the power of innate feminine preciousness and specialness.

In short; the female power fantasy involves getting the biggest baddest most desirable male possible... and having him do anything for her.

This means Christian's domminess actually is, paradoxically, a heightening of the power fantasy; it shows how powerful he is which in turn increases the payoff for enlisting his agency.

I agree the idea of a "beta allowance scale" has some merit and explanatory power, but I think I'll phrase it differently; Grey already proves himself through being handsome and charming (and secondarily through showing an incredible amount of power over his business empire). He's already got 'natural' desirability.

Grey's vulnerabilities and need for Anastasia emphasize how much he needs her. This 'seals the deal' so to speak.

Now, in a real-life dating situation, things are different; Christian had a reputation, a massive business empire and very appealing looks. His desirability was established in advance and didn't have to be proven. But in the real world, one needs to prove that desirability at first unless one is similarly situated to Christian Grey.

GreatZiggurat · 2015-01-27T11:55:22+00:00

Haven't read the book but it sounds like Christian Gray has money, preselection (other women want him), and he's physically attractive. If you're high-value, you can be beta to a greater extent than someone who isn't. George Clooney can be as beta as he wants to be and still hook up with as many beautiful women as he wants. For someone of a more pedestrian background (most of TRP readers), it doesn't work that way. You gotta put much more emphasis on frame.

There's also a big difference between a man who acts Beta towards one woman, while acting like an asshole to the rest of the world (highly attractive) and someone who is needy or supplicating towards a number of women in his life. The former tells a woman that she's special, the latter tells a woman that the guy is weak.

Katniss_Granger · 2015-01-27T13:30:57+00:00

No woman with more than half a brain cell actually likes Christian Grey or thinks he's anything more than an insane dithering twit, I'd say the women who do like him probably have some mega daddy issues and if they don't then my guess would be that the attraction has something to do with his main trait - shit tonnes of money.

Bakerofpie · 2015-01-27T18:17:37+00:00

Okay, I'll actually answer, though. TRP is about men trying to act in their own best interests. It is sexy and enticing for a woman to be wanted so much that a guy will do anything to be with her, at least in concept. It's an extremely poor long term strategy for multiple reasons, but I'm not sure how many would deny the obvious sexual appeal of being the only one this former player type wants. However, it would be detrimental for TRP to advise that. A man gains nothing from being a submissive to a woman unless that is truly their "thing." It'll make things exciting for a short while and then he's simply a slave to her whims and her desire falls off until that spicy sex life they had becomes a thing of the past.

To me there's no conflict. My Husband doesn't express a ton of emotion whether positive or negative, but on the occasions when he lets slip how much he likes having me around it is incredibly hot to me and I want him then and there. But if that were the rule rather than the exception it would no longer be enticing at all.

exit_sandman · 2015-01-27T10:23:22+00:00

Beta allowance scale (tl;dr: You get away with all kinds of shit if you already are supremely attractive to a woman). Credits go to /u/vaginalaquarium for coming up with that term.

they want to see a man's vulnerabilities and heal him (like Ana does with Christian).

Yeah, if they have the feeling that they are so superspecial that only they among all 3.5 billion women in the world are able to bring him out of his shell and make him behave out of character. I mean, this whole book is so full of wish-fulfillment, it would be porn even if there was no sex in it. However, there is nothing really attractive about a man being emotional and vulnerable if that's his standard M.O.

The actual question is how long she would remain attracted (if the story was real) if he was totally giving himself to her and would upset the whole D/S balance their relationship is based on.

GridReXX · 2015-01-27T14:18:50+00:00

Never read it, but I imagine humans are going to human in spite of whatever TRP says.

QQ_L2P · 2015-01-28T00:34:14+00:00

To be successful with girls, you need to be OK at 2/3, or excel at 1/3 of these things:

Money
Looks
Game

The character in the book is desired by every other girl on the planet, it implies good game by preselection (other women find him attractive). He is clearly rich and has good looks, so essentially, he has the trifecta. He has every desirable trait in spades and can have any woman on the planet, but what does he do? He goes chasing after this one chick because apparently she lays golden eggs or something.

A womans ultimate dream (theoretically) is to have an Alpha be her Beta Bux, to have someone so desirable desire them so greatly that they are incapable of doing anything else. That's what womens fiction is essentially about. It's porn for the narcissism in her mind. That's what made Fifty Shades of Grey the biggest best seller ever and that's why Christian Grey is attractive to them. Not because of what he's doing chasing after this chick is attractive, but because he scores highly on the 3 categories of desirability. The desire to be desired by what is desired by others, by proxy, makes you the most desired thing out there. Ana is irrelevant, she is markedly plain and has no distinguishing features, which allows women to transplant themselves into the story, they become the protagonist. While they are reading that book (read; porn), they become the single most desired person on the planet, even if it is a fictional one.

In practice, if a guy did that in the real world it would be such a turn off that every light in a city block would immediately go dark.

Villaintine · 2015-01-27T10:17:51+00:00

Probably because you're talking about fictional characters.

goatismycopilot · 2015-01-27T13:57:42+00:00

Proud to say I did not purchase Fifty Shades of Grey and do not give a shit about Christian Grey. Blue Pill.

bgslaking · 2015-01-27T20:42:36+00:00

The women who enjoy the book say that they find the idea of being an alpha's One True Love (that implies neediness on some level from the man) more attractive than the idea of being with an "aloof" alpha who could replace them easily if they slipped up.

Thats it right there. Most women who enjoy the book have the fantasy of conquering that alpha male. What the book probably doesnt go over is the reality once he changes into a passive guy that just wants to make her happy. Sooner or later, she will think, "He's just not the man I fell in love with..."

Petticoat_Rule · 2015-01-27T23:53:56+00:00

So, there are two contradictory and yet co-existing beliefs that you can find on TRP. In one hand, there's the belief that women want a man who holds frame all the time, so it's hard to be a man because "men can't ever relax". On the other hand, there's the belief that women want to be a man's confidante, they want to see a man's vulnerabilities and heal him (like Ana does with Christian).

Probably stronger women who are confident in themselves are fine with men showing a vulnerable side. I have an SO (of almost 6 years) who shows it to me often - and it's great and no one else is having him ;)

I think for women who feel vulnerable or like the feeling of being protected, they would like a man to 'hold frame' most of the time.

I might look and sound like a total 'girl' but I'm not 'girlie'.

I didn't read 50 Shades of Grey, but then, I don't read romance. I did read the sample on AMazon to see what all the fuss was about.

I guess women like the unrealistic fantasy and it get them off.

I've read lots of action thrillers. Got sick of the protag being an unrealistic man who can do anything, be anything - just as much of a wank as 50 Shades of Grey.

some_pill · 2015-01-27T10:25:15+00:00

Ok blue pillers how many of you are into whiny crybabies????

how many of you are currently dating emotional wrecks of men???

chazzALB · 2015-01-27T16:34:46+00:00

Wait ... if they find this guy repulsive why is this piece of garbage one of the best selling "novels" (just threw up a little) of all time? Why is every female radio DJ saying "oh my God. I like totally cant wait for the movie"

Bakerofpie · 2015-01-27T17:29:33+00:00

It IS! It IS repulsive! Fuck you to anyone who likes that book.

wazzup987 · 2015-01-27T15:24:31+00:00

Because midwestern house wives that can't be bothered to read good erotica like Story of O, and they have no functional knowledge of what bdsm is actually like. So they read and get turned on by an abuser alpha^tm. An abuser alpha i might add that by the end of the trilogy gets thoroughly mind fucked by the metaphorical embodiment of watching paint dry to no longer want to be dominant or have any D/s in the relationship. In fact by the end of the trilogy the metaphorical embodiment of paint drying is the Defacto domme. over the course of the trilogy its basically the inverse of Story of O but way worse and incompetently written.

nicethingyoucanthave · 2015-01-27T22:20:11+00:00

Writing is a conscious, deliberate act - an attempt to create characters with believable motivations. Unfortunately, people are not necessarily conscious of every behavior or attribute to which they are attracted (or by which they'd be repulsed).

The above statements are true. I doubt anyone will have any argument against them. Now here's an opinion:

When the author writes about BDSM, she is relating a primal urge that she as a woman has experienced. That shit was hot. It turned her on. It doesn't matter why it turned her on but it did. So she is conscious of it and able to write it into her story.

When the author writes about a man infatuated with a woman and begging her stay with him, she is guessing that this is also something that would also turn her on. She's attempting to write a believable character, but she's not calling on personal experience.

As a red pill dude I am quite certain that, billionaire or not, getting on your knees and crying is going to turn a woman right the fuck off. But the author of 50 shades doesn't know this.

which one is it

This is logical fallacy: false dilemma. There's no reason at all that if I believe there is some interesting truth in part of the book, that I am therefore required to accept the entire thing.

YaBoiTibzz · 2015-01-28T00:46:07+00:00

Just have to point out, Ana did break up with him. Given that he has basically everything else ever going in his favor, I'd argue that her breaking up with him would be pretty much unthinkable if he wasn't so extremely dramatic and emotional. So from that point of view you could say that his behavior did decrease his SMV, luckily, he had many other factors in his favor to keep it high.

[deleted] · 2015-01-29T13:16:14+00:00

Has anyone looked at Nostalgia Critic's analysis of "Why is Loki so hot?" Loki isn't Christian Grey, but he's also powerful AND kind of pathetic at times. For a blue-pillish guy, NC explains it pretty well:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pl30aEahlIU

Short explanation: because vulnerability makes him accessible to That Certain Someone, who can heal his problems, and thus earn his undying loyalty. And then he will use his powers FOR That Certain Someone :)

DownThaRabbithole · 2015-01-27T17:18:21+00:00

Because depression and vulnerability can bring out a woman's nurturing side. When combined with stimulating attraction it can be a very powerful combo.

Your example shows the incompleteness of TRP... Not that it's wrong. Good post nonetheless.

[deleted] · 2015-01-27T17:51:46+00:00

He's rich and other people do what he says. This is what makes him attractive to her. This is social proofing at its finest. He's a very busy man. He has lots of things to do with his time, and instead he spends it on plain jane.

This is the same as some average guy getting hit on by a supermodel.

His abasement to her is not what makes him attractive, but it makes HER feel attractive. She's getting validation that she's a prize to be won, and she's getting it from a rich and powerful man.

Chasethehorror · 2015-01-27T18:10:39+00:00

the second one. i loved holding my exes while they cried

Title	TRP says that aloofness and holding frame fosters attraction in women. So why don't women find the fact that Christian Grey is a needy crybaby repulsive?
Author	[deleted]
Upvotes	14
Comments	97
Date	January 27, 2015 10:15 AM UTC (11 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/PurplePillDebate
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/2ttt6a/trp_says_that_aloofness_and_holding_frame_fosters/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/PurplePillDebate/trp-says-that-aloofness-and-holding-frame-fosters.283685 https://theredarchive.com/post/283685

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