How Many of You Believe In The Wall (A Woman Loses Sexual Market Value When She Turns 30)?

admirals_go_nuts · 2014-03-02T19:53:27+00:00

If you want to know if The Wall is real or what it is like, simply gain 100 pounds. You'll find out what its like to be invisible 10 years early.

[deleted] · 2014-03-02T20:23:03+00:00

I tend to view the "Wall" as something that's more general, and defined differently in different circumstances. For example, I go to a conservative southern university. This university has a storied history of women getting married to their partners while at school, so much so that there's a saying: "Two rings before spring" (your class ring and your wedding ring).

What's interesting is that one of my friends that goes out to bars/clubs occasionally has noticed something: women at around the age of 22 will be much more flirty. Because there's this socially constructed "Wall" where getting married during your college years is a big deal, lots of women who don't have boyfriends at this time try to make up for it and snag one before it's "too late".

Cultures have lots of different types of "Walls", all of them seemingly socially constructed. This leads me to believe that the "Wall" only has a basis in actual reality when it comes to biology. Once you reach a certain age, men will stop wanting to date you for the purposes of procreation. Other reasons for dating/marriage don't change with age.

For example, my father is in his mid-60's and he's getting remarried to a woman his age. He wants companionship, not more children, so there really isn't an age limit on this.

When it comes to your own personal issue, I think you need to assess your relationship. If you think your boyfriend will make a good partner, a good father, and you're happy with him, then stay. If not, then you have to think about what you want to do.

GayLubeOil · 2014-03-03T09:30:56+00:00

It realy depends on how a woman takes care of herself. If stays active, eats right and avoids alcohol and drugs im sure she can look great later into her life.

[deleted] · 2014-03-02T18:09:25+00:00

If you want a family you need a responsible man. Love is not the most important thing in a marriage, compatibility is.

robesta · 2014-03-02T18:02:40+00:00

The Wall exists in my experience. I've seen it play out in real life over and over. I'm 34, and I know many women in their late thirties that want a "real" relationship.

The whole "cock carousel" thing can be hyperbole. A lot of women I know have just gone from LTR to LTR and haven't met the "right guy," now they're disillusioned cause the guys they are interested aren't interested in a woman in their late thirties.

As for your situation, you should end it. You don't respect the guy. I see it in the tone of your writing. You need a man you respect and don't expect someone to change for you. That doesn't work out well. . No sense wasting time now. The 30s are not the new twenties and your beauty is perishable. Many woman's looks go downhill after 30.

LadyLumen · 2014-03-02T19:57:08+00:00

A lot of people do nothing with their lives. No nice job, no hobbies, not taking care of their health, no social projects, no nothing. Some of those people are lucky early on if they hit the genetic lottery and such have sexual attraction going for them. When the 30s hit and the fast food, drinking, smoking, no sleep, sedentary life style, etc, take their tole - they have nothing left and have a very hard time attracting partners compared to before. As such, the perception of "The Wall".

Women seem to have it harder in this respect for a number of reasons. They are judged more based on looks, they seem to reach peak physical beauty earlier. Men are also judged based on their accomplishments more, and a 30 something year old man will have a lot more in that regard than a 23 year old boy. But I still know plenty of young playboys turned fat belly underachievers, and those felt the Wall just as hard as any "party girl".

Also, regardless of what TRP says, building a meaningful relationship with a 20 year old chick as a 30+ year old guy is extremely hard. We're just sick of that age's idealism, childish behavior, insecurities, lack of inner peace and so on. Physically? Sure. I end up in bed with 20 year old girls rarer and rarer, and every time I do I'm just stunned by how nice is their skin, how firm their body. But then they are so sexually inexperienced and insecure. And they want everything to mean something. I'll stop here, you get the picture.

Anyway, take care your body, your mind, job, etc, and you gonna have plenty "SMV" even as 35 year old woman. You will still be the one who gets to pick from a multitude of choices. The wall as TRP describes it is nothing but a young boy's wet dream. Men peak a little later, but that's it.

Canned_Wine199 · 2014-03-02T20:20:01+00:00

Men and women both become unattractive with age if they ride on their youthful looks and do nothing to take care of their physical selves. Red pill hamstering tell us that women are somehow sexually attracted to money and power, and those women playing arm candy and marrying balding, overweight men are totally not just in it to get a cut but genuinely do get damp for flaccid, materialistic older men who share none of their interests.

There are both men and women who are physically attractive into their 60's, it's rare but they exist, look at Sigourney Weaver and Bruce Springsteen, I feel that almost everyone here would consider them both to be more attractive than the general population of 20-somethings

[deleted] · 2014-03-02T19:17:07+00:00

[permanently deleted]

MissPearl · 2014-03-02T19:18:11+00:00

One's early 30s and late 20s have moved into the age people in wealthy, developed regions generally pair off for keepsies and get married- it's not so much "the wall" as the time period when people collectively, of both genders, seem to pair off and start plopping out babies if that's their inclination, or the partnerships they make get increasingly more stable.

Think of it more like the demographic development stage a lot of people are at- (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_at_first_marriage)

As much as people talk about a "wall" for women, both genders generally change over a lot of priorities- for example in my late twenties a lot of people of both genders have started making enough money to feel comfortable, are feeling out starter real estate or chasing promotions, and there is much less behaviour oriented around getting drunk, meeting scads of people (very important for promiscuity or even partner hunting), 'finding yourself' etc...

A person of either sex who treats a decade of their life like a vacation is going to be in a bad position, barring trust funds. Female fertility gives a slightly more closed window than men (a 40 something woman is going to have a bad time, although as men age their rate of birth defects also go up and I helped pay for college by looking after the kid of a 42 year old women who'd had an accident) which means that if one of your life goals is making a baby or two, you're going to need to focus on building a stable life to make that possible. It's not so much that your youth is something you spend on someone like it gave bonuses for hot sex and they are supposed to pay you back later in stability, it's that stable relationships take both social skills and time investment.

So if you wait until 30 and break up with your boyfriend because you want a more financially stable place to make babies, the competition challenge is really that the people getting married at 30 are putting in the investment at least a couple of years beforehand- a typical engagement is a year, and anyone except the very commitment happy (who will pair off ASAP) will spend some time in LTR land.

Remember that the gender ratios hover around 50/50, but the attrition rate is going to remove people who wanna pair up and drop out, decreasing the pool as you go- For a personal example, my high school sweetheart who proposed to me (but whom I did not marry) continued the rapid commitment trajectory onto another woman very rapidly after we terminated our relationship, and quickly got someone pregnant. He wanted a family NOW. At 18 that was not what I wanted.

As far as a "wall", by your mid thirties, the people on the market will be people looking for serious relationship #2 or people who are choosier (and the same amount of discards, of both sexes, whom nobody does well to choose, for simplicity, assume this number is fairly static). More is going to be expected of you as far as coping skills in your 30s and beyond, but on the flip side it's because younger people don't have as much expected of them from immaturity, not because youth is just so awesome.

As an extension of that, it's true an early twenties woman gets a large sweep of people treating you like you're in their dating pool. The trade off that doesn't get talked about is that while at 22 you can attract a 32 year old (or older), the developmental stage you were at then is not conducive to anything but very immature 32+ year olds who have only learned the same amount as you and still think what you think is cool at that age is awesome, or 32+ year olds where you're going to be comparatively dependent. This latter thing can be awesome for lots of people, but expect as you get older that the provider/mentor types are in high demand and the overgrown children of either sex generally are not.

Now as far as looks, if you haven't gone through a lot of yoyo dieting and hard living, you're not going to explode into wrinkles and sag suddenly- and plenty of people actually hit their stride in their looks as they get older (check your family album). You will age. That is not a bad thing. Society in general tends to be more shallow about women, but on the flip side it's one of those cases where you have to say fuck'em, because regardless of when you end up going from "young lady" to "ma'am", a dude you hook up with for keeps has to be able to handle gravity and telomere abbreviation in you or he's going to be a ball of fail when you get there, whether you were married beforehand or not.

Edit- I needs a copy editor

aaron_the_just · 2014-03-03T12:37:06+00:00

(a) You should look for a man you don't despise.

(b) The wall is real, but it can be postponed. Adequate rest, not smoking, little drinking, proper diet, etc.

(c) Men hit the wall a lot later than women. Yes, it's unfair, but that's just the way attraction works.

(d) If you're afraid of the wall, a good plan is to build value in yourself in things besides your appearance and sexuality.

"The Wall" really hits hardest for women who have been entirely relying on their looks and sexuality to gain attention from attractive men. It's roughly the same as men who rely on wealth to attract women: they could lose it at any time (and usually do).

SigmaMu · 2014-03-02T18:44:36+00:00

At any age, why would a guy date a 33 year old when he could date a 23 year old? The most likely answer is he simply doesn't have the status to attract a 23 year old. So as a single 33 year old, your only options will be these low status men, who you may feel don't meet your standards. This leads to "Where have all the good men gone?" moaning from the post wall set, and a bitterness that they 'settled for less'.

If you live in the gym you can mitigate some of this, but you can never really stop it. And if you're a single mom, abandon all hope.

[deleted] · 2014-03-02T17:42:35+00:00

Not a redpiller, but if you're asking if you should dump your boyfriend: give him an ultimatum first.

kaylaontheDL · 2014-03-02T19:30:30+00:00

You need to sit down and have an honest think with yourself. How much do you want children in the context of marriage? I.e. is the risk of losing this goal outweighed by the increased happiness you would find being without your current boyfriend or not?

You also need to be honest with yourself (granted, pretty much impossible but worth a try) about your own ability to attract a higher value mate. Who do you want to be with? Will he want to be with you?

Lock in current bf and guarantee achievement of husband + children. Also guarantee a relationship in which he will essentially be another child, another human being you must care for. Dump current boyfriend and risk not attaining huband + family goal.

Does The Wall exist? Not the way terpers want it to. We all age, we will almost all be less attractive at 50 than we are at 20. But you only have to take a quick glance around you to see that people tend to get with people who are fairly close in age to them. There'll always be that 40 year old dating 22 year olds, male or female, but most of us aren't that person, and most of us don't want to be with that person.

rulenumber303 · 2014-03-02T20:49:19+00:00

You know the red pill term "pump and dump"?

Well girl, I think what you have to do in this case is "rinse and flush"

You're wasting your time with someone you barely respect, and could be onto better things. This is true whether the wall exists or not.

We_Are_Legion · 2014-03-02T21:04:40+00:00

It's scientific fact that women will have more difficulty reproducing past 35 and there's more of a risk involved with having children past that age. Younger (within reason) IS better when it comes to women and reproduction.

However, I don't think this plays much of a role as she approaches this particular age in her behavior. It may if she desperately wants children; but it really depends on her present circumstances. An anecdotal example -- I don't care if I'm 35 with no kids because I don't want them. I welcome the day I can't have kids.

I can't speak to her overall SMV because I'm not into women. But plenty of women are good-looking at 35, as are men.

lbspredh · 2014-03-02T21:41:29+00:00

I don't see the contention here, young is more desireable than old and 30 is a milestone

as for your dilemma it's a hard one but don't expect someone to change just because you think they ought to if you want to marry someone more responsible and mature then find someone more responsible and more mature.

phreshyeti · 2014-03-02T23:47:38+00:00

I don't worry about it anymore because I plan to remove myself from the market altogether. Somehow I'll find a way to be content with solitude, very self sustained and not having anyone interfere with my plans, then it doesn't matter anymore. Never wanted marriage and kids anyway, casual affairs seem pointless, so just eliminate it altogether from my view and who cares about appearance past the point of appearing presentable and looking nice for yourself?

exnera · 2014-03-03T01:51:36+00:00

I hate to say it, but I think the odds are against you if you are holding out hope for him - or anyone - to change. You either can accept him as is (and future growth is a bonus) or cut your losses. Also, the best predictor of future behavior is the past. If he has no history of being responsible and taking care of himself, it's not very likely that he will suddenly develop these qualities and become the person you are looking for. But he has shown you that you desire a creative, funny, passionate, interesting partner who is also responsible and mature (and gainfully employed). These are totally realistic things to want in a mate, IMO.

As for "the wall," I don't really put much stock in it aside from your own reproductive clock. If you know you only want one child I think there's less of a time crunch, but if you want two or more it's unfortunately something you will need to keep near the forefront of your mind...just my two cents.

BabeOfBlasphemy · 2014-03-02T21:57:01+00:00

I'm 38 and there's no wall in my experience. I still get hit on every day (even my daughter's teenage friends have tried). Men who think this are looking for breeders, not complete human beings. My mom went to school and became a child psychologist once her own children were in highschool and didn't need her all the time anymore. This allowed my dad to retire at a young 50 and stay home for TWENTY YEARS as my mother supported him. My moms value didn't reduce, only in baby making, her economic value INCREASED...

RedBackJumpingSpider · 2014-03-03T18:27:30+00:00

The Wall is stupid. Yes, it is harder for women to find partners after they turn 30. It is also harder for men to find partners after they turn 30. Why? The partner pool has shrunken. For some reason culture pressures women to get married much more than it pressures men to get married. What's the name for a male spinster/cat lady? There isn't one, but (at least in the USA and many other countries where the female:male ratio is about 1:1) there's about one woman for every man, so there's one unmarried woman for every unmarried man.

"The Wall" is based on actual phenomena but it's misinterpreted to make Terpers feel better about being wronged by women. It's like for peasants who believe that after they die they are going to heaven and the manor owner is going to hell, so they're happy being peasants.

lev21pirate · 2014-03-02T21:15:12+00:00

But I guess the argument is that it will be harder to attract a "quality male" in your 30's, than it would be in your 20's.

I think its more of a question that what women consider "quality males" changes drastically, either in terms of priority/importance and/or possession of. Attracting males ,generally speaking, shouldn't be that difficult.

I'm sure that traits you find unpleasant in your boyfriend now were originally things you were looking for in a mate; He's carefree, adventurous , wild and so on. But now you'd rather have someone who's responsible, down to earth and stoic .

If anything , the Wall is only a parallel to women's constant shifting wants, inability to plan ahead and make the appropriate sacrifices. I think its a cautionary tale for men rather than women.

Why should we care if you're wasting your time with someone you despise or if you end up alone and unloved?

nninja · 2014-03-03T10:44:12+00:00

Ya I would suggest you find a man who YOU could actually depend on to be your rock. Reality is women make a huge commitment when they have kids, they put their careers on hold, and will depend on the man to help out.

A woman cannot make a man. Don't waste your time trying. If he isn't dependable, then he probably won't make a good father. Now you can stay with him if you don't want kids, or if you accept that you'll have to pull more weight. But I wouldn't advise it. The guy just seems to be wasting his life, from what you've said anyway.

I'd say your peak for attracting men now. It doesn't mean you won't be able to past 30, just that you're at you highest now. So I'd say now is your time to find a good man and still not have to rush to have kids etc.

caxica · 2014-03-03T13:07:29+00:00

It's not a "wall", its an incline that begins a few years before 30 and ends many years after 30. And for some women the incline is far steeper than for others.

30 isnt some magic number. Its only significance is in the context of a base-10 number system.

masterrod · 2014-03-04T05:34:51+00:00

This has never been the case. A woman losses her sexy when she stops being sexy. Once she's +30 she can no long her dumb/naive sexy, she must change with her age, and be more elegant. A woman has certain temperature with her age, she must learn to use it to continue be sexy her entire life.

[deleted] · 2014-03-05T23:44:23+00:00

I'm too lazy to make certain no one has said this before, so I apologize if this is redundant (though I don't think it will be):

Men, like all animals, have instincts. One of our instincts is to mate. Part of that instinct to mate is to find a mate of the highest quality genes. Women in their "prime" are at their prime because (as my understanding goes) they are; A) advertising the best their genes get, and; B) at the peak of their capability to bear children.

If we agree on those 2 points (I can see a little contention possible with the 2nd point but I'm gonna proceed anyways), we can probably make a few assumptions: 1) Women outside their prime are not advertising the best their genes have to offer. We are taking for granted that physical appearance is the most utilized indicator for gene selection. 2) Women outside their prime are not as capable at bearing children. "Capable" in this context needs to be defined: There are increasing risks for both mother and child as the woman gets older. In this context I mean ease as well as safety. The chance of birth defects or complications with pregnancy rises significantly between 30-40. However, this is not something we consciously (or not until recently) were aware of. But I'm willing to bet that evolution taught us this fact long ago.

So, in short, yes. I believe there is a type of wall that is, unfortunately a very real thing. I agree that it's different between cultures and some cultures may impose a socially constructed wall prior to the actual one. But, regardless, I believe there really is a point at which men can tell (probably not consciously at all) that a woman has really begun to decline in her reproductive capabilities. While I lament this, I believe this a fact of things are and will remain, unless the pressures which will fuel evolution changes it.

As a brief personal aside, I'm 28 and I've noticed, for the first time in my life, noticing older women and finding them attractive (by older I mean approximately 32-45). This was relieving because I wondered if I was going to be stuck on 18-25 year olds my whole life (as seems to be the case in the world). But, I can also say that, after a bit of reflection, I'm not looking to them for anything but sexual relationships (ie I don't imagine the possibility of having children with them or even desiring children by them). Whereas the women closer to my age (sub ~35ish) I can see POSSIBLY having children with. Simply put, this explanation I gave is in line with my experience. Obviously I could be biased but I think it's a pretty rational explanation.

FortunateBum · 2014-03-11T19:34:24+00:00

You have absolutely no idea what "hitting the wall" means. So please completely forget all that. Terminologic misunderstandings will not assist you.

This worries me because I am a 26 year old female. I hope one day to have children, but right now I am not married. I do have a long term boyfriend, of 3 years. However, I have many incredibly mixed feelings about the relationship. On one hand, I have a lot of love for this guy. I think he's very sweet, romantic, we have a lot of fun together and have a bunch of mutual interests.

Ok. You know you want to have kids. You are at the peak of your biological fertility. You've wasted a lot of time with this guy. You should have already had kids and be having one right now - in a biological sense.

What you need to do is break off with this guy and start dating men. Men who have a good career, make lots of money, maybe own a house, want to have kids and get married, etc.

Biologically speaking, 35+ is considered a geriatric birth. Many women hit menopause mid 30s.

You want to have kids? Bottom line, you're wasting valuable eggs on this guy.

admirals_go_nuts · 2014-08-12T18:00:34+00:00

I have many incredibly mixed feelings about the relationship. On one hand, I have a lot of love for this guy. I think he's very sweet, romantic, we have a lot of fun together and have a bunch of mutual interests. Make up your mind girl... About the wall... its statistics, 90% of women hit the wall hard, but of course you can find plenty of smoking hot 30+ year olds. Just work out, dont eat crap and take care of skin.

fasterfind · 2014-03-03T21:15:59+00:00

The average age of marriage is going up.

As far as "market value", that sounds like bullshit. Unless a girl is an ugly hag, she can walk up to me, say, "Hey cute stuff, let's date." and I'll say yes. So will 90% of single guys. That fast, that easy. Market value don't mean shit. If you want a guy, just snap your fingers and one will appear. It's always been like that and it always will be... exactly like that.

LadyLumen · 2014-03-02T18:55:43+00:00

I don't believe in any "walls" because I don't think terms like "sexual market value" make sense. When you meet someone it's not a matter of SMV it's a matter of how compatible two specific individuals are. I also don't think women lose "sexual value" anymore than men do. The average age difference in relationships is that the man is 2-3 years older. Most people after 30 (and this is true for both men and women) are looking for a stable partner. And if you sign up on a dating site after 30, you'll find there is still plenty of men to go around.

As for your mixed feelings, only you can answer whether you love this man for who he is or not. Everyone has flaws but if you can't accept his flaws then it's probably not a good idea to stay in the relationship. I think it would be foolish to end it because of some imaginary wall. But it would make sense to end it if your top priority right now is to get married and have children with a financially equal partner.

Title	How Many of You Believe In The Wall (A Woman Loses Sexual Market Value When She Turns 30)?
Author	LadyLumen
Upvotes	14
Comments	135
Date	March 2, 2014 5:12 PM UTC (12 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/PurplePillDebate
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/1zctzg/how_many_of_you_believe_in_the_wall_a_woman_loses/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/PurplePillDebate/how-many-of-you-believe-in-the-wall-a-woman-loses.286135 https://theredarchive.com/post/286135

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