Question For The Red Pillers | PurplePillDebate

[–][deleted] 19 points19 points19 points 12 years ago | Copy Link

[–]RedPillMX3 points4 points5 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]myfriendscantknowAgent Orangered (BP Man)15 points16 points17 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]vpwnz13 points14 points15 points 12 years ago* (3 children) | Copy Link

Ok so I have been reading your stuff and from what I can gather only men who are alpha are able to perform/be dominant in bed

You didn't gather very well. I don't think RP comments on something this specific. Looks like you suffered a mild case of projecting after reading something you had a strong preconception about. (see how I just did what you did?)

but I am honestly a beta

Hard to define terms, even when people understand the general tenets and ideas of RP which you do not, as is evident from your post. You read for a little bit, didn't think about it and now have posted what you believe to be the apex debunking of RP from own experience.

How would you from the "red pill" point of view explain this kind of relationship.

Wow, looks like you proved TRP wrong. Go home everybody.

To clarify: You have swept the entire thought experiment these subs exist for under the rug by generalizing it as something primitive (or at least that's how your post reads to me) like "hurr durr alpha man takes dat dere pussay, beta male cries alone at night muahaha!"

It's a lot more nuanced than that. The rhetoric most peeps at TRP use may be rather obtuse but the thought behind it is very nuanced and goes far beyond misogyny, misandry, alpha, beta and other bullshit.

Your post is an equivalent of showing up at a geology exhibit and saying "Well, there ain't no damn day-no-sawur bones in muh backyard! How d'yall explain that?!"

Checkmate geologists.

[–]S7R3CH[S] 6 points7 points8 points 12 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[–]vpwnz6 points7 points8 points 12 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]S7R3CH[S] 7 points8 points9 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

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[–][deleted] 11 points12 points13 points 12 years ago (29 children) | Copy Link

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[–][deleted] 8 points9 points10 points 12 years ago (15 children) | Copy Link

TRP ideology tells men to take charge in the bed room, not ask her what she wants.

TRP ideology promotes the "captain/first-mate" relationship style, when OP clearly presents an equal relationship.

TRP ideology insists that women can't be "loyal" in the same sense men are, and in the absence of the previously stated behaviors, will cheat on him and find an "alpha" to ride.

TRP also says that looks have very little to do with attraction; if you look like Arnold Schwarzenegger in his prime but exemplify "beta" behaviors, she'll get bored and lose attraction.

OP's entire situation is very contrary to TRP ideologies' world view.

This:

It would be contrary to TRP if he were at her beck and call while she barely ever did anything for him

Is contrary to every suggestion from everybody ever about relationships. It's not "TRP 101", it's common advice 101. If you can find anybody (of good standing) who genuinely promotes this, I'd be mildly surprised.

[–]autoNFAPurple Pill11 points12 points13 points 12 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

[–]tetrahydrous 1 point2 points3 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] -1 points0 points1 point 12 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

[–]assmunchinator6 points7 points8 points 12 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

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[–]autoNFAPurple Pill-1 points0 points1 point 12 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

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[–][deleted] 2 points3 points4 points 12 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

OP never says he asks her what she wants in bed.

Yes he does.

She is incredibly loyal and would do anything I ask of her be it sexually or just generally and** I give her the same courtesy**.

As I showed in my first response.

No, what OP describes is a relationship of mutual care and listening, he says nothing about their leadership dynamic, if any.

Allowing his girlfriend to take control when she wants something... sounds pretty "beta" to me.

Luckily for him he seems to be alpha enough.

Or TRP ideologies' theory grossly underestimates the amount of relationships that don't fit their dynamic. I'm going with Occam's Razor here, homie.

This is just flat out false, TRP says nothing of the sort.

See the response I just left for /u/AutoNFA.

OP's bedroom situation is literally TRP in real life so no, wrong again.

Sometimes, apparently. The rest of his relationship seems to express a level of equality that directly opposes TRP ideologies' theory (as I've just demonstrated).

Wrong as well. There is plenty of bad advice floating around that basically says to put women on a pedestal and spoil them like princesses. The fact that you can recognize it's bad advice doesn't mean that clueless people can do the same.

Well duh. There's plenty of bad advice on all topics floating around, most rational people can tell that advice is counter-intuitive. If you can find me one reputable source of relationship advice offering this solution, I'll give you reddit gold.

[–][deleted] 8 points8 points8 points 12 years ago | Copy Link

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points3 points 12 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

No, he doesn't. If she asks for something he complies, he is not the one asking her what she wants.

This is a deliberate attempt to reframe the situation from a "red pill" ideologies' perspective; you could just as easily reframe it the other way: if he asks for something, she complies, and it would still be true. He paints their relationship as egalitarian, and even himself admitted that he's "happily beta" after reading TRP ideologies' description of a beta.

Nope, you are simply building a convenient strawman and attacking that. 'TRP says that one must be 100% alpha all the time otherwise his woman will literally immediately jump on the next cock' is something that's suited for a circlejerk in TBP, not here.

TRP does actually say this. From their Acronym and Glossary link in the sidebar:

Hypergamy – The instinctual urge for women to seek out the best alpha available. This is marked by maximizing rejection (therefore women are the selective gender). A woman will vet her alpha through various shit tests to ensure his "health" on the alpha scale. She is conditioned to recognize a declining alpha, as hypergamy also tends to continue seeking out higher status males even while with an alpha male. Shit tests allow her to prepare herself for eventually leaving when a new higher status male is found. If the male fails shit tests to a great enough degree, it will effect her feelings for him. He will effectively lower his sexual market value in her eyes. This will enable her to jump to the next male with ease and little remorse.

If my portrayal is a strawman, it's a strawman presented by TRP ideology itself.

The example you provided is of a case in which the lack of physical attributes can be overcome with other traits. It says nothing about the importance of looks, just that they are not a necessary condition.

This is actually my point, and why I suggested his looks are ultimately irrelevant. See my response to /u/assmunchinator.

This is completely your invention.

Not at all. OP said that his girlfriend does what he wants, and she does what he wants (sexually). This is an egalitarian approach, not a captain/first-mate approach encouraged by TRP ideology.

So it's not true that "Is contrary to every suggestion from everybody ever about relationships."; it's contrary to all good suggestions that come from people who know their shit, which are a minority of the overall available advice.

Look, every single view that could ever be held is represented by somebody. There are people out there who believe every kind of insane thing under the sun. My point is that this information is far from mainstream, and that TRP ideology only offers what is painfully obvious in this regard. It's not a view exclusive to TRP.

It was a generalization. I know how much you guys like those.

Once again, find me a reputable, mainstream source (not some random wacko on Tumblr or a random reddit post) that recommends this relationship model as the best one for everybody, and I'll give you reddit gold.

You are simply dismissing clueless people (who exist aplenty in both genders) by calling them irrational. You are free to do that, but it won't lessen their need for a guide to help them figure out which advice is good and which is bad.

I'm dismissing their view as the "mainstream" view. Clueless people need help, no doubt about that, but TRP ideology is not the "help" they need.

[–][deleted] 2 points2 points2 points 12 years ago | Copy Link

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points3 points 12 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

Nope, I'm just correcting your literal misreading of what OP wrote. He never wrote that he asks her what to do in bed, period.

Quit being dense. I've posted this damn near 3 times now:

She is incredibly loyal and would do anything I ask of her be it sexually or just generally and I give her the same courtesy.

If OP doesn't do this, perhaps you can understand how one might interpret that from the way he phrased this.

The text you quote literally says that a jump happens a) if she finds an available higher-status male and b) if the current guy fails enough shit-tests. It's not the ridiculous binary you were painting, thanks for proving that beyond any doubt.

It wasn't a binary, I was bringing up a generalization that TRP often follows. I get that followers of TRP ideology don't think this happens in 100% of cases, but you said this:

'TRP says that one must be 100% alpha all the time otherwise his woman will literally immediately jump on the next cock'

Take out the "100%" part and it's literally a summation of the hypergamy definition I quoted. It's a response to my earlier suggestion that members of TRP ideology vastly over-estimate how often this happens, given their liberal use of the word "hypergamy". I still stand by this. If my post suggested a binary of any kind, it's a miscommunication. My bad.

TRP ideology speaks in generalizations, and most of reddit hates them for it. I don't. I get the value of generalizing. I just think TRP ideologies' generalizations are stupid. But perhaps you can understand that I, too, am speaking in generalizations, and maybe not take every single thing I say so literally.

No, it isn't, unless you re-define 'mainstream' as whatever sources you know to be reputable. To a clueless person, 'mainstream' is whatever they hear most often and what they (likely) hear most often is generally terrible advice.

"Mainstream" isn't relative, it's defined by it accessibility to the widest audience. There's probably a few people out there who have never heard of The Black Eyed Peas, but that doesn't change the fact that they're in the mainstream. A clueless person who misses out on the mainstream is unlucky (or perhaps lucky, in the case The Black Eyed Peas), especially if he's fed terrible information, but it doesn't change what the mainstream is.

The offer for gold still stands.

[–]puaSenatorRed Pill4 points5 points6 points 12 years ago (11 children) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (10 children) | Copy Link

[–]puaSenatorRed Pill6 points7 points8 points 12 years ago (9 children) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] 3 points4 points5 points 12 years ago* (8 children) | Copy Link

The two are not mutually exclusive. You believe the logical inconsistencies of TRP ideology are trivial because you think TRP just works.

TRP just works. It's TRP ideologies' mantra to prevent them from having to closely examine their own belief system.

Just because you can go out to the club and pick up a local bar-slut by acting like an "alpha" doesn't change the glaring inconsistencies in "red pill" theory. How can "red pill" ideologues criticize women as "solipsistic" when your entire theory is based off of "it just works in my experience, therefore TRP."? How can TRP make up rules that apply to all women and then shrug off the hundreds of women that turn them down as, "Meh, it's a fluke."? How can TRP believe that women are incapable of love, reason, honor, and thinking of anybody but themselves when there is demonstrably a notable amount of women who defy this generalization?

Most importantly, why are there so many people who lead completely fulfilled sex lives without TRP ideology?

The inconsistencies aren't flukes, they're the reason why TRP is wrong, and "red pillers" will sit around and hamster for days about anything that remotely contradicts their theory. Instead of hating me for pointing out your inconsistencies, why don't you take some time to figure out what those inconsistencies mean?

TRP ideology is intentionally designed to appeal to young men's insecurities and push an agenda. You're deliberately spreading misinformation. You're not the first group to think you've found "the truth", and you certainly won't be the last. If TRP ideology truly is "the red pill" as it claims to be, it shouldn't have any trouble standing up to scrutiny.

[–]puaSenatorRed Pill4 points5 points6 points 12 years ago* (7 children) | Copy Link

See, this is why I can't have this discussion with you. You are under the impression that we mean ALL women react to this, and ALL men should be this way. Obviously, there are always exceptions to in the social arena.

First off, TRP never says women are incapable of love, honor, and all that other fun stuff. It's just that women GENERALLY (NAWALT!) aren't capable at the same degree men are. Most men fuck up assuming women think the same way men do, which ends up GENERALLY biting them in the ass. TRP isn't so much about getting laid as it is recognizing that men and women, due to testosterone, genetics, and other things, don't think the same way. Our brains are literally different. Our values and lenses in which we experience the world are different from one another.

But at the end of the day, TRP DOES work on MOST women. I don't give a flying fuck if you're an exception, or you know an exception. The truth is, it works. Yeah, some guys are very early on and have a lot of things to overcome, like confidence, life situation, comfort, and so on... But the reality is, MOST women fall into TRP ideology. You may not directly realize it, but it is true. Again, I was "red pill" before being RP. What TRP did for me was define it and understand it. To this day, if we went to a bar, I guarentee you, you wouldn't think I'm sexist asshole who's just trying to fuck meek and timid girls. You'd see me as fun, exciting, interesting, and funny. You'd most likely want to give me your number because you'd want to hang out with me again. That night, I'd also be able to talk to just about ANY woman and get a positive response from her. Yeah, maybe the noobs wouldn't with freshly shaved neckbeards, but as someone with experience, I would.

Most importantly, why are there so many people who lead completely fulfilled sex lives without TRP ideology?

This is absolutely true. The same way many people that many people can live completely fulfilled lives broke living in a small apartment. However, at the end of the day, they aren't living to their fullest. Also, many of people living to their fullest are TRP just havent bothered to break it down. For instance, Bill Clinton, he's totally TRP and just doesn't know it. Or Russel Brand, again, very RP but just doesn't know it. The job of TRP is to break down exactly what makes a sexually highly successful man. This isn't a circlejerk of, "Well just be yourself! Listen to what women tell you they want in a man!" No, this is a group that analyzes exactly what makes a person successful, breaks it down, and discusses why. If TRP is wrong, TRP would want to be corrected and proven wrong, because TRP doesn't have an agenda. It just wants to help people become more successful in their personal lives, and if one thing is shown to hinder this, TRP will trash it and look for a better alternative.

And yes, TRP does stand up well to scrutiny. Just not your scrutiny. The fact is that us just having this discussion, and your obvious missunderstandings, show you really don't understand TRP. You are coming into it with a preconceived notion trying to twist it to fit your personal world view. The same way creationists try to debunk evolution. You aren't really arguing against TRP, but some other missunderstood concept which you think is TRP.

And no, I wont sit here and debate everything about TRP with you all day, because I don't want to spend hours combing over every tiny detail basically writing a book.

[–][deleted] 3 points4 points5 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Maybe I am being too nitpicky. I'll try to keep that to a minimum in this response, because I do believe you are fundamentally mistaken.

But at the end of the day, TRP DOES work on MOST women. I don't give a flying fuck if you're an exception, or you know an exception. The truth is, it works. Yeah, some guys are very early on and have a lot of things to overcome, like confidence, life situation, comfort, and so on... But the reality is, MOST women fall into TRP ideology. You may not directly realize it, but it is true.

You see, you can't just say this. I mean, you can, but the entire reason this sub exists is because there are lots of people who disagree with the ideology sold by TRP. I could just as easily say, "All women aren't like TRP says they are. It's simply true. It just is." and we'd be right back at square one. This is not nitpicking; you're presenting it like a fact, a fact based on nothing but your experience. And based on my experience, I disagree.

Look, there are probably lots of girls who fit TRP's model. I wouldn't know because I personally avoid them like the plague. What I find interesting is that members of TRP actually go out of their way to "game" such terrible girls and then wonder why every girl is "this way". I wouldn't really have so much of a problem with TRP if they told men, "Hey, want to get laid? Women down at the bars tend to respond well to X, Y, and Z. Give it a shot!" No, you generalize it to most women, and then when a guy goes out to the bar and manages to get his dick wet, he's too ecstatic at the fact that he's finally getting laid to really reflect on the unnecessary parts of TRP. You could just as easily tell a dude to act confident, not put women on a pedestal, work out, and hit on every woman he sees and he'd eventually get similar results.

Just because you can game some chicks at the bar doesn't mean there's a cock carousel, or female hypergamy, or female solipsism, or any of that BS. This is my point - you're using tried and true methods to meet women and jumping straight to "women are this, women are that, evolutionary psychology and blah blah blah." Maybe not you personally, but this is exactly what happens on TRP.

I don't believe you're all virgin neckbeards creepers. This:

To this day, if we went to a bar, I guarentee you, you wouldn't think I'm sexist asshole who's just trying to fuck meek and timid girls. You'd see me as fun, exciting, interesting, and funny. You'd most likely want to give me your number because you'd want to hang out with me again.

Is probably true. I believe that you guys actually do get laid. But you guys also automatically assume that everyone who isn't lock in step with TRP ideologies' way of thinking must have no experience with women, because there's no other explanation for why we could possibly disagree with it.

I've dated a lot of girls. Some of them were, in hindsight, totally in line with TRP's model. Most of them weren't. Maybe I'm lucky. Maybe I'm a quick learner. All I know is, there are a lot of girls out there who don't fit your theory. Somewhere down the line, mainstream dating became less about compatibility and more about conquest, which is where we probably diverge. I could give a shit less what my partner count is, I've never seen one-night stands as fulfilling. If you just want to add another notch in your belt, then more power to you, I honestly mean that. But understand that the women you're dealing with represent the women who respond to that, not the majority.

Personally, I like women who are independent, successful, mature, straightforward, committed to a monogamous relationship, and able to put me in my place. An equal, not someone I have to take care of. They're hardly the majority, but you know what? I've never had any problem finding girls like that.

For instance, Bill Clinton, he's totally TRP and just doesn't know it. Or Russel Brand, again, very RP but just doesn't know it. The job of TRP is to break down exactly what makes a sexually highly successful man. This isn't a circlejerk of, "Well just be yourself! Listen to what women tell you they want in a man!" No, this is a group that analyzes exactly what makes a person successful, breaks it down, and discusses why.

Eh. Look, you're probably going to think this is nitpicking, but how can someone "be RP and not even know it"? Just because someone is successful doesn't mean they accept theories about cock carousels and female hypergamy. They don't follow blog posts proclaiming that women are (generally) incapable of love and honor to the same degree as men. They don't believe the captain/first-mate dichotomy is set in stone; Bill Clinton's wife is probably more "alpha" than he is.

I get that you guys study successful men to see what they have in common. That doesn't make every successful person "red pill".

If TRP is wrong, TRP would want to be corrected and proven wrong, because TRP doesn't have an agenda. It just wants to help people become more successful in their personal lives, and if one thing is shown to hinder this, TRP will trash it and look for a better alternative. And yes, TRP does stand up well to scrutiny. Just not your scrutiny.

This is false. TRP regularly deletes posts that are critical of its axioms.

This post was made a little over a month ago which posted scientific articles suggesting that sluts are not more inclined to cheat. If TRP was open to being corrected and proven wrong, they would have thoroughly discussed it and compared it to other results. Instead, it was downvoted to oblivion with little discussion and deleted by the mods.

A few weeks ago, /u/Tminus543 posted a scientific study indicating the honor seems to be more prominent in women than men. If TRP was open to being corrected and proven wrong, they would have thoroughly discussed it and compared it to other results. Instead, it was downvoted to oblivion with little discussion and deleted by the mods. "Red pill" indeed.

And let's not forget about the famous incident when /u/Sloshtopus thoroughly debunked one of the articles in TRP's sidebar, and "red pillers" were suddenly no where to be found. When someone made a post on TRP to discuss it, it was almost immediately deleted and the mod /u/SoftHarem called the poster a "concern troll". /u/redpillschool later shrugged it off as hyperbole (on this board, in fact. I can't find the original post, unfortunately), instead of deleting it. It seemed to me like he believed that deleting it would be succumbing to "feminists". He would rather save face rather than admit that TRP was wrong.

(but that's my own speculation, for the record)

I get why TRP heavily moderates, but they reached the point of stomping out dissenting opinions long ago. It's not some bastion of truth exchange, it's an echo chamber for men who have a very specific view of women. Believe what you want about women, but don't pretend like TRP is willing to change its approach in light of new evidence.

One more thing:

You are coming into it with a preconceived notion trying to twist it to fit your personal world view. The same way creationists try to debunk evolution. You aren't really arguing against TRP, but some other missunderstood concept which you think is TRP.

This is not true. When TRP first started, I was intrigued by the idea. I thought it had promise. I liked the idea of a place free of feminist censorship that helped young men learn how to be successful with women. It quickly devolved into feminazi conspiracies and ridiculous generalizations, and I could not accept their ideas, no matter how hard I tried. TRP is a good idea gone way overboard. They've become every bit as much of a caricature of themselves as third-wave feminists.

You just can't wrap your mind around the fact that there are guys out there who understand what TRP is all about and disagree with it. I've heard the same BS from Christians, feminists, scientologists, and followers of alternative medicine; "You just disagree because you don't understand it, you don't want to understand it, you won't give it a chance, blah blah blah." Same song and dance, different content. I told you I study ideology as a hobby, which is why I can see past TRP's rhetoric. "The red pill" has no effect on me.

[–]Those_Who_RemainIrrelevant Homosexual1 point2 points3 points 12 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

[–]puaSenatorRed Pill0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points4 points 12 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[–]puaSenator0 points 12 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

The "masters" of the game say this because it was true when they were new. They have books to sell, and realize that the noobs are going to get rejected. The reality is, the "masters" probably only get rejected a good 15-20% on cold approaches, and probably 5% on warm approaches. It's a skill like anything else, similar to sales, where when you start you're absolutely horrid, then with experience and time you become a beast.

Even before RP my friends used to joke about bringing female friends around me, because I'd sleep with them -- which was true. It didn't matter if they were a party girl or a church girl, I would build attraction with them. I'm no Johnny Depp, I'm just a whole lot of fun and subtly sexual. You may not have experience from my perspective so it's a worldview you can't relate to, but when you are the center of attention, making decisions, and have women hitting on you, it DOES signal to MOST other women to also try and get with you. In my experience, the ones that dont hit on you are simply not because of either resentment or because they see it as a useless effort.

Also, in all due respect, I will possibly reply to your other response to me later, but it's simply too long and I don't think I have the energy to comb over that novela.

[–][deleted]2 points 12 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

No. I've watched many of the pick up videos and read the field reports, and they explicitly state that, even at their level, they hit on many women before they get any kind of positive response. The top thread on the front page of this subreddit at the moment shows that numbers from PUA coaches shows a 1 in 37 positive response rate. These are guys who make a living off "reading women's minds".

I know guys who get laid several times a week, and they get turned down a whole lot more often than they score.

Even /u/redpillschool admitted that he hits on upwards of 20-30 women before he gets a positive response.

This is the internet, so forgive me for not believing your sexual escapades are at rockstar levels. But for argument's sake, let's just pretend you're right about your second paragraph.

Female friends of friends are different - they share similar lifestyle and cultural choices as you and your group. This is, in fact, how I personally end up meeting most of the women I get with - through friends. I'd expect you to have a better chance with women in your network. You're assuming that the women in your circle reflect women as a whole.

I know that the majority of the women I've been with would not respond well to the suggestions over at TRP. We can have this battle of personal experiences all day, but the fact that both of our experiences with women seem to differ markedly kind of speaks to the differences among women all on its own.

The idea that you get with 90% of women is laughable.

Also, in all due respect, I will possibly reply to your other response to me later, but it's simply too long and I don't think I have the energy to comb over that novela

With all due respect, it's not much longer than the response you left me. It might appear that way due to quotes, but by all means, take your time.

[–]Tway_the_Parley1 point2 points3 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

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[–]mikado121 point2 points3 points 12 years ago (10 children) | Copy Link

[–]CFRProflcopter( ͠° ͟ʖ ͡°)2 points3 points4 points 12 years ago (9 children) | Copy Link

Attractiveness also means different things to different people and isn't quantifiable on an objective level.

Attractiveness is frequently quantified in sociological studies. It's not the same for everyone, but it is measured.

My point was that you're "better man" line sounds like rhetoric. /r/thebluepill and /r/theredpill are places for rhetoric. Here I look for things that are more palpable. To me, it's quite obvious that TRP's main goal is sexual strategy. Sexual strategy is all about appearing as attractive as possible to the opposite sex. You can call it whatever you want, but that's what it ultimately is.

So why do you need the rhetoric? Why do you need terms like "alpha" and "better man?" The only purpose they could serve is to make you feel better, to make "the pill" easier to swallow. I guess I think that kinda conflicts with TRP's "no nonsense" attitude. I'm certainly not the only one to notice. Many red pillers on PPD have pointed out the exact same thing.

[–]mikado120 points 12 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

That's interesting, and I'm not a sociologist, but would those studies perhaps be more general, society-wide impressions of attraction? Would I be wrong if I thought a woman was a 6 instead what a sociological study labeled, say, a 7?

All right, "better man" is a little vague but when you're dealing with non-quantifiable measures you need to allow a little slack. You're right to press this point, but just understand once you start pressing the matter of what "better" amounts to you're in philosophy territory. I've proposed teleological accounts and they've received some good attention, but people are going to understand the term differently depending on their metaphysics/worldview. I could give you my account but I couldn't speak for all of TRP.

I've always seen "alpha" really just as a set of traits buttressed by a certain mindset. It doesn't make me feel better about myself, but I acknowledge the value of the behavior when it comes to relationships, don't you?

I would deny that TRP is, at its core, about sexual strategy. I know it says it is on the forum, but a few of the mods have confirmed with me that it's first and foremost about masculine self-developmment, with sexual strategy a major part of it. I'll totally grant you that if it is first and foremost about sexual strategy then using "attractive" and "unattractive" as the primary terms is totally okay.

[–]CFRProflcopter2 points 12 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

That's interesting, and I'm not a sociologist, but would those studies perhaps be more general, society-wide impressions of attraction? Would I be wrong if I thought a woman was a 6 instead what a sociological study labeled, say, a 7?

You could measure it a number of ways. Generally it's based on self reports and averages.

I've always seen "alpha" really just as a set of traits buttressed by a certain mindset. It doesn't make me feel better about myself, but I acknowledge the value of the behavior when it comes to relationships, don't you?

Of course, but I'm also honest with myself when I'm making an attempt to appear more attractive. I don't know why that's such a faux pas for men in our society. You're supposed to be attractive, but also aloof about it like you don't really care. That's not really possible, IMO. If you want to be attractive, you have to actually try.

[–]mikado120 points 12 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

You could measure it a number of ways. Generally it's based on self reports and averages.

Ok, well surely you could do the same thing about whether someone's a "good man" or a "bad man" or how well he represents the society-wide conception of masculinity.

"Of course, but I'm also honest with myself when I'm making an attempt to appear more attractive. I don't know why that's such a faux pas for men in our society. You're supposed to be attractive, but also aloof about it like you don't really care. That's not really possible, IMO. If you want to be attractive, you have to actually try."

No one's going to stop you from trying to be attractive, we have loads of resources of TRP about what that amounts to. The thing with the PUA part of it is that it's not really ideologically tainted, if you honestly documented that dressing in pink and fawning over women worked then that would be a huge story. We just have general methods and rules that we've compiled that we've noted tend to work.

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natgeo and discovery aren't mainstream?

I'd have to see the documentary. If you could list the specific individuals and what their fields are it might help.

When I look through scholarly articles, most of what I find is along the lines of this:

http://www.people.ku.edu/~phawley/Publications/Hawley%20et%20al%202008%20MythofAlphaMale_IJBD.pdf

With our calling attention to “the myth of the alpha male,” we mean to point out – theoretically (including biological models) and empirically – that (a) the most dominant members of a social group are both male and female, (b) means other than overt aggression are employed to attain and defend these positions (i.e., relational aggression and prosocial behavior), and (c) both high dominance males and females attract similar social attention and draw others’ social aspirations (especially females). Traditional work in social dominance typically defined dominance in terms of physical aggression (but see Pellegrini et al., in press). It thus comes as no surprise that the questions posed and methods employed centered on male superiority. Furthermore, females’ social strengths (e.g., focus on relationships) are often construed as impediments to dominance attainment or at least mitigators of “real” (i.e., physical) aggression. In contrast, we see these social strengths as true social assets in hierarchical groups. Both dominant males and females enjoy these skills and orientations, and benefit from the social attention they attract.

In short, "alpha male" is usually a term used to refer to males that use physical dominance to become leader of a group and increase their access to mating females. In humans, physical dominance is very uncommon. We're not a violent species, we're a "political" species. Thus those with political skills tend to be more socially dominant. Of course women are just as capable when it comes to politics and networking, so there's almost surprisingly little difference in how males and females achieve their social goals.

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You're surprised because you think I'm obsessed with being right.

Absolutely not. I'm surprised because you presented evidence that not only didn't support your conclusion, but countered aspects of you're philosophy. If the defense attorney shows up and present evidence that incriminates the defendant, people generally act surprised.

It seems you watched it with the sole purpose of reinforcing your ideas.

First of all, how would one even attempt to do such a thing? Second, what gave you the impression that I did that?

Dunno why someone would brag about being 100% convinced about something that can't really be proven.

Just to clarify, we're talking here solely about TRP's use of the terminology "alpha." You didn't exactly put up a fight or make a serious effort to defend your position. You said that it's not unusual for people in the scientific community to refer to humans as alphas, but you didn't present any evidence to support that assertion. So I'm going to assume you don't have any. I feel well within my right to say that I feel more confident in my assertion than I did before.

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honest question. I dont know if you are a guy or a girl but if you are a man, doesn't it sound awesome to have a woman love you so much that she is willing to be your literal slave, be with you through anything and have great sex? or if you are a woman, listening to your nature and fulfilling yourself through service to the man you love? I think man and woman in the correct biological roles is the purest and truest form of love possible.

I will deny it when people say my relationship is bad because I dont believe it is and we are both very happy in it. I was a drug addict before I met him and will likely always be. you cant fault another person for my actions. have you ever loved somebody enough that you are willing to do things you dont agree to to make them happy? we both do that.

I know not everybody is interested in an "unequal" relationship but I wish more people would try it and be open minded to it. there is nothing shameful in submitting. you personally deserve a person in which you can be the man or woman nature designed you to be

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[–]Captain_of_the_ship2 points3 points4 points 12 years ago (16 children) | Copy Link

some women need to be knocked down a peg

Yeah, awesome. But sorry, your sex life seems to revolve around you acting out your history of abuse and being virtually unconscious during sex.

For some of us, sex is a path to growth and awareness and being as connected to each other as possible. A bit hard to do that on heroin and without having healed your background of abuse.

My Master looks down on you just as much as you look down on us.

Yeah, he sounds a real catch. You smacked out of your head on heroin all day, him stoned all day. You lacking the courage to step up and own your life, hiding behind him and justifying it somehow on the grounds of it being "traditional" when the reality is traditional women were far more capable than you and knew who they were. You seem intent on hiding out and avoiding life. You go girl.

[–]berryokt1 point 12 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Is your intent to put me down and make me feel bad? We both think the other is wrong but I haven't used personal attacks against you. You know about me because I've been open about my history and my relationship, I don't know much about you except that you seem intent on mocking and destroying me. I'm doing my best with the cards I've been dealt. But if it makes you feel accomplished to put down homeless strangers on the internet, maybe something is lacking in your own life.

I've noticed people like you tell me I'm worthless and that my love isn't real, as if you know what I'm all about inside. I admit I am weak and very dependent on my man, I don't know why that is a bad thing. I do sometimes envy women who are independent and make their own money and don't need a man. I know they don't have to be used as a slave and a fucktoy and that at least one person out there cares about their opinions. But that is my place in life and like I said, some women need to be taken down a peg. I can understand now why both men and women like you despise me and do your best to hurt me. You pretend to know what's right and say that I am undeserving, tell me how bad my life is but offer no suggestions, only confront me with truths I haven't forgotten as if they are jokes or somehow my fault.

You really can't understand why a person would do their best to deny the bad things said about them and not want to deal with the realities that these jerks may be right? If I've put up walls to defend myself with, who are you to break them and why do you want to break me so badly? What if you are right that I am just some unloved, abused, raped junkie? How far does it get you to tear somebody down like that?

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I am a man, don't assume I am a woman 'rebelling' against the thought of being weaker. I just strongly disagree with you. No, it isn't 'common sense' to think men are superior because they are physically more capable.

Men would be nowhere without women, just like women would be nowhere with men. Humans are social and dependent creatures, so there's much more to it than just 'natural order'.

I know that you are somewhat in an outlier with the kind of relationship you have chosen to be in, but don't take your experience as facts of the world without any objective facts to back them up. You have chosen to be believe that men are superior to women, but in human society that isn't truly the case. Women have an important role in life as well. Sure, it may differ from the role that men have, but they aren't any less valuable for that difference.

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Title	Question For The Red Pillers
Author	S7R3CH
Upvotes	1
Comments	119
Date	February 8, 2014 9:00 AM UTC (12 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/PurplePillDebate
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/1xcg3y/question_for_the_red_pillers/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/PurplePillDebate/question-for-the-red-pillers.286241 https://theredarchive.com/post/286241

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