I have my kids (two little girls) part time who are now almost 5 and 3. Two days a week I drop them off at school in the mornings, and while sometimes we are a bit rushed usually I leave more than enough time to handle them easily in the morning.
When I got to their school this morning about 30 minutes later than usual I was treated to many more other parents. All rushing, being grumpy with their kids and muttering things under their breath like "hurry up" while their kid (who is four) is putting on their shoes. One parent actually dragged her kid into the classroom crying because she was "running behind". If you think kids don't see and hear this stuff then you're wrong. They pick up absolutely everything. And remember all of it.
Now, if you ever want to have your frame constantly tested by shit and comfort tests, hang out with small children. Everything gets questioned, they need to be told to do things calmly over and over again and occasionally they will just melt down or push back and you have to actually parent and deal with it. Remember what people say about treating women like they are 3 year olds sometimes and how well it works? Well, it does.
If you lose your frame and start to yell and force them to do things it can work for now. However, remaining calm and being assertive goes miles further. It also teaches them that they can stay calm and not have to feed off of your BS negative emotions. People learn how to treat you from the way you treat them. From the book WISNIFG I learned things like broken record, which goes a long way with kids - and a lot of other people in life too. It also means you can calmly deal with whatever comes your way and just take care of it. And also gives you time to flirt with your kids teachers' stress free.
Holding frame doesn't have to be practiced with just women. It means at work when that coworker tries to palm off blame on you for a project that went sideways. It means dealing with clients or customers when you have to take accountability if you screwed up. It means being organized and friendly and assertive to your kids and LTR even when you might be in a stressful situation. It means not losing it when you're in a store and the sales clerk is incompetent. Just a few examples.
I've found over the past few months that stoicism and practicing the ability to meditate and see the big picture invaluable for this. Even being able to take three deep breaths when your emotions rise and controlling yourself means that you hold frame, deal with your situations better and therefore garner more respect and deal well with people in all walks of your life, especially your LTR and/or kids.
For a project, especially in the Christmas season when stress levels rise, make a point of practicing holding frame in all avenues you walk into. Whether it be with family, kids, a store clerk, people at work or even women you're plating. Once it becomes second nature to operate this way it does reap rewards.
OP is living rent-free in some liberal snowflakes' heads:
So triggered right now that they can't even.
As I like to say, Frame is not necessarily about something you are, but rather the refusal to be defined by others. Or their behavior, or your expectations thereof.
Having people - women, children, etc. - fall into your frame is really about giving them the freedom to do so. And that sort of dynamic makes the people around you more calm, relaxed, happy, etc.
Ironically, if you run around this world in a Blue Pill mindset trying to force people to do what you want and creating covert contracts, then you are in reality doing the opposite. You can see a microcosm of that in the OP's pre-school example. Your masculine nature can be a gift to this world - a fact often forgotten in our modern day society.
It’s a tremendous benefit in both relationships and life.
Today, my girl uses the metaphor of a tower for my frame (her understanding of frame). A tower as in a safe fortress or castle.
In the past, as a younger guy, it was more like a tiki hut. Safe harbor and freedom from harm were less likely.
Don't let your girl turn into a super annoying jet. Or the government.
Shit, that first sentence hits hard. I can tell I’m going to remember it the rest of my life.
I actually teach at a kindy.
What a great post.
" If you think kids don't see and hear this stuff then you're wrong. They pick up absolutely everything. And remember all of it. "
Absolutely. There are formal lessons - the ones they learn at school - and informal lessons - the ones they learn from their parents and everyone around them.
Every time you interact with them you are teaching them. What did you teach your kids today? How to shout? How to be impatient? How to be aggressive instead of cooperative? Or how to remain calm? How to stay in control? How to be fair? How to listen?
And how to sneeze.
Something that I've been thinking about for a long time, because everyone has a different sneeze and yet I share the same one as my father.
Sneezing though is influenced by the shape of your nose, throat and mouth, and thus quite heritable (with of course some influence from your mother.)
Behaviours are learned...(Although also influenced to some extent by physiology....)
This subreddit is being flooded with really good quality posts lately! I can dig it.
Interesting to see it from the parenting perspective. I like to tell myself that if i have kids, im going to establish those behaviors early etc. and not have kids thinking they can run around and be disrespectful and unruly, but then i see how many parents fail at this and consider that theres probably more to it than that.
I work directly with families and children with behavioral disorders. I see just how bad children can get when they are NOT parented properly or otherwise have a mental disorder that the parents are unequipped to handle. Almost always by the time I get called in to help, there has been a long history of problems that went untreated or the parents tried their best but it was completely unproductive and in some time made things worse. Some of the parenting is basic and some is 'counter-intuitive." For example, many parents 'attend' to bad behaviors only to reinforce it with their attention. Parents get mired in a power struggle with their child over every little thing. And then the power struggle widens over time as the child, sometimes justifiably, has to escalate their behavior to save face because the parent is actually being childish too or overly strict/domineering.
The number one thing children crave is attention from their parents. I can't tell you how many parents I see that have just checked out or make little time for their children. Many of them are workaholics or work two jobs just to survive. The parents have little energy or lack attachment toward their children. Many of the kids will act out just to get attention.
The one thing I will say that relates to this is that "Stress" is like electricity, you can transmit it directly to your children. The children get jacked up with your anxiety and because they are unequipped to handle it, they act out or do stupid things. So stoicism if the face of children is advisable. Once you start to yell at your children, you are transmitting stress and you've lost the power struggle. Some stress is good because it promotes adaption by the child. But there is a threshold where by the amount of stress, yelling, negativity starts to tip over into destructive territory. A lot what i see that parents are unable to regulate their own emotions, they are flooded with anger, anxiety, disappointment, shame, or whatever and they act out instead of separating their emotions from their thinking.
A lot of the therapeutic work I do, is to help people regulate their emotions more effectively by slowing them down, getting them to calm down, think through the problem with me, and then have them role model with me or practice with their children in front of me. It's just like lifting, the parents have to be disciplined and consistent or the family dynamic will revert back.
What do you recommend with dealing with jealous teenage daughters? I love my daughters to pieces but they hated every woman I ever dated in one way or another. I couldn't even tale my gf to a dinner for Pete's sake. I don't know how to deal with it.
Frame. Your daughters do not get to dictate your dating life. That's absurd. If they can't be nice and except that you get to have a life too then don't validate their bad behavior with attention. Make it clear that you will make time for them and you will also make time to date. If they don't want to spend time with you during the time you made for them because you also made time to date, then that is their issue.
edit: you said you couldn't take your girlfriend to dinner. you could, it would just mean that your daughters are no longer manipulating you. You gotta remember that divorce is hard on children and that most likely in their mind you should be with their mom. They don't hate the women you date, they hate that it takes attention away from them or their mother.
But they are kids, will they not feel rejected?
Teenagers are more mature than people realize. They're at an age where they are starting to figure out the power of human resources as well as how easy it is for women to manipulate men with the poor little girl card.
As long as you still make time for them like I said above, they shouldn't be feeling rejected. And if they are, well tough. You get to have a life, your life does not revolve around them. They need to learn that a healthy father/daughter relationship means not getting jealous of sex and love interests. That goes for you too. They should be allowed to hang out with boys.
the first thought that comes to mind is that jealous daughters ultimately fear that the new woman is going to "take daddy away" from her and "no one is a good as mommy." So the solution is to reestablish the father-daughter bonds. Of course, a man has to live his life as well, so deferring to the daughter gives her too much control and reinforces her bad behavior while diminishing the father. Sometimes the internal dynamic is let me see if I can steal daddy's attention away from new girlfriend and if so, that shows how powerful I am or see daddy still loves me.
On some level the daughter has to resolve these feelings, she can't hold her father hostage with her emotional blackmail or otherwise bad behaviors. Daughters should not be excluded either, so sometime having joint events with daughter and new gf is good, although they are unlikely to go well at first. Since this a blended family arrangement, then their is some responsibility on the gf to make an effort and understand what the daughter is going through. I've seen this sort of dynamic in a recent case, and the more the child's behavior is not addressed, it can get really bad..like resulting in rage and assault or worse.
Women never grow beyond a certain age. If you can’t deal with your daughters, you can’t deal with your sexual partners. Quit being a pussy.
Be assertive. When I Say No, I Feel Guilty. Look it up. Read it three times. No More Mr. Nice Guy, too.
That's what I needed to hear, No more Mr. Nice Nice Guy no matter if they are my daughters. Thank you.
yes, no more mr. nice guy BUT do not take that literally. the reference is to a book, which I am sure you heard of or read. Glover talks about the 'nice guy syndrome" and it has a lot to do with your own personal boundaries and sticking by them but you can do that politely and calmly with a daughter(s). Daughters will likely try to pull you into an emotional argument as you set the boundary. They might say, "you do not love me" if you go on this dinner date..or something to that effect. A response might be, "don't be silly jane, of course I love you, kiss her, I'll see you when I get in, ok? <look her in the eye> then if she tries the puppy dog eyes or tears up, you can comfort her with a hug and say "it'll be alright" and then LEAVE....you can say something as you walk out the door like... don't forget to brush your teeth before bed...
The goal should be nurturing your daughter but always maintaining your own boundary/personal life. You have every right to move on with another woman.
I don’t have experience with the situation but have you tried sitting down with them and firmly telling them that you need them to support you and your dating life?
Of course if they’re going to understand your perspective, you need to try and understand their as well. It must be difficult to see your father with a woman who isn’t your mother as a constant reminder that your parents don’t love each other anymore.
They are teenagers, and they know their mother cheated on me. They also know I love them and try to make time for them but they can't accept any other woman in my life. It's hard to balance it, I feel like a terrible father if I am too nice to a woman when they are around. I am a complete pussy around them I have to admit
Is it more common with single mothers from what you observed?
absolutely, the majority of my clients are single mothers with at least one male child (they could have a sister or two) and the problem the mother reports is the male's behaviors.
However, increasingly we are getting more females but also the females are starting to show more "externalizing" issues that typically characterize male behaviors (assault, cutting school, drug use, oppositional behaviors, running away). Of course, you still have girls with the depression and self-esteem problems, eating disorders/cutting.
Also, what is on the rise is autism and other developmental disabilities related to cognitive functioning, what they now call intellectual disability (we do not use mental retardation anymore).
I appreciate your post and depth. On a tangential note, many people who are super successful or naturally alpha have fathers who beat their ass or put the fear of God that they would beat their ass. You have any concept on this?
I personally have mixed feelings on this issue. Professionally I have to advocate to the parent whatever is in sync with child abuse laws. Some states have 'corporal punishment' as acceptable, some do not. In a lot of cases I am legally mandated to report to child protective services even any suspicion. Nowadays, many parents are aware of this and that is enough to deter them.
<<But Generally, I have not found the use of force or threats to be effective because it puts the parent in an adversarial position with the child.<< The child learns avoidance rather than the real reason not to do something. If I do X, I'll get whooped rather than I should not do x because it is harmful or socially inappropriate. Parents who do as you (fear of god) typically were authoritarian and strict. The child learns to become a perfectionist always seeking their parents approval and praise, they internalize this message and project onto their boss, supervisor, and even co-worker and girlfriends. Alternatively, with parents that didn't know when to draw the line, you'll have children who rebel against authority, they internal the message that someone how they are bad, and they go through life with chip on their shoulder, fuck the system, and sometimes act as victims...blaming others, particularly their parents (sometimes justifiably) for their short-comings. Like I said, some parents are vindictive and hit out of anger as oppose to measured discipline with corrective intent.
Consistent behavior with clear punishments and rewards? Not reacting to externals with extreme emotion? Behaving in a considered manner even under duress? This is the value of masculinity.
Hitting someone out of anger is the very definition of losing control of your emotions, and therefore your frame.
I'd say a very small percent of people (mostly men) with abusive childhoods form a hyper-developed competition and survival instinct early on as a defense mechanism that benefits them later in life.
It's often said that most great artists are born from extreme childhood adversity. But I'd say many more are just left a shell of a person prone to self-abuse and abuse of others, perpetuating the cycle. And leaving the realm of arts and athletics, I doubt if that apparent axiom would hold true. I'd question how many Fortune 500 CEOs for example came from abusive childhoods.
that is interesting but i think its similar to what you brought up about artists. i remember seeing a post on facebook about different successful people and some had been to jail, some had fought drug addictions, it is like you said, growing through encountering adversity. i think the bias lies within the fact that artists tend to be more "in the public eye" when everyone else is kind of low key.
I don't think it's the bias of being in the public eye necessarily; I think it's the fact that it's basically the business of selling emotions where the vast, vast majority remain poor forever.
I know a lot of successful business owners of everyday "boring" businesses, including one billionaire owner of a major regional franchise. Some of them are indeed like you say. But most of them (including the billionaire) clearly come from a strong familial foundation where they were groomed for success and given abundant opportunity from a young age.
I think outside the arts the bias is the opposite of what you're saying, because the stories of overcoming extreme childhood adversity are the ones that make headlines. Those are the stories that are compelling to the media-consuming public.
No one cares about the ones with supportive families who come from a pedigree of entrepreneurship who were already upper-middle class and higher. But reality is the latter comes with an infinitely higher probability of success in general, compared to the few in the tail-end of the bell curve that managed to overcome the terrible odds that come with an abusive childhood.
I don't think that "beating ass" is effective. Calm loving and caring confidence is what the father should inspire, I believe.
Great post. Do you have any opinion on the book Mind Over Mood?
I have not read the book. However, any book that is well written that teaches you how to control your mood based on cognitive principles is worth a read.
Cognitive therapy is really simple to understand but tremendously hard to practice in the moment. Best bet is to read Aaron Beck's work.
Nice! I see he's the inventor of CBT. Mind Over Mood is like an activity book to get it into practice.
Don't think it's easy. I have two teenage daughters (+ one wife) and frame is everything. As soon as you lose it, or show insecurity, shit tests rain down like hail from three sides. After trp I realized why. The father provides the example: an insecure father creates weakness in the children (more likely to seek validation in promiscuous sex, drugs, binge eating or other disorders). On top of that all a weak man is denied sex. The woman is programmed to constantly test the man for leadership. If you have a moment of insecurity, instead of trying to help you re-gaining your self-esteem, she will nag, complain, blame and bash you. Many women (I don't think all) will branch at the first difficulty, typically if you lost your job or your business went through a slump and so on. I have seen women both standing by their man and women abandoning what they perceive as a sinking ship. Even when they are loyal and stand by your side, however, they are rarely helpful, because all they do, in any discussion, is blame you and point the finger at your fallacies. When you reply that this is not the right attitude the reply is "... but I am trying to help ... by saying what's wrong with you". There is no rest or mercy for weak men. OP is right, frame is everything and if you lose it once, the risk is a snowball effect that precipitates into depression. A man (alpha?) is in control of his emotions and setbacks and faces difficulties with calm stoicism. A weak moaning validation seeking man will quickly lose respect from his woman (if he has one ...) or will have great difficulty in finding one. This at least is my experience.
Yup. I have general frustration with people who became parents but should not have. Seems a lot of this you mentioned are in that boat.
I'm not cut out to be a parent. That just ain't in the fucking cards for me. I'm impatient with people who don't understand something I say the first time, let alone subsequent times. I hate having to explain things or, heaven forbid, dumb them down.
I would make a shitty parent. That's why I'm not going to do that thing. I wish more people were fucking capable of recognizing "You know what? This parent thing just isn't my gig. Gonna bow out on that one."
As you have said, children need and deserve to have things explained to them. Parents who say "Because I said so." Are doing their child an incredible disservice. Worse yet, parents who force their children to do things (dragging them like you said) are teaching them might makes right. Which is a fucking abysmal lesson to teach a child.
Parenting is simple once you’ve sorted your own personal faulty mental models and shitty behavior. Never easy, but simple. Success and failure always fall on the leader.
I don't know that it would be so simple for me. There are a lot of roadblocks.
I've never genuinely loved anyone until very recently, for starters. My parents were good parents. They obviously had their faults as everyone does, but they were good parents. I don't love them. I've had to face scenarios where I thought one of them was on death's doorstep for a day or two and I felt next to nothing. A bit of unhappiness that they wouldn't be around anymore because I enjoy their companionship, but nothing serious. I felt the same as when I lost my cat.
I've had brief obsessions with romantic interests, but those were sexually motivated and passed. I believe I have found one person whom I can say I actually "love" pretty recently.
The other issue, quite frankly, is that I do not want children. I have only so much time before I crumble into dust. I already have to waste a third, roughly, of that sleeping. Another quarter to a third working, probably.
I'm already down to less than 50% of my time being available to me. Do I want to throw half of what's left on someone else? Fuck no. I also want my money that I've earned to be available for myself, again, mostly because of all the time I have to spend earning it.
I will never be able to read all the books I want to read, go on all the cruises I want to go on, play all the racquetball I want, or play all the computer games I want. But I certainly don't want to be able to do even less.
Good stuff. I agree with meditation being invaluable for helping with maintaining frame in stressful situations. Gives you the mindset to take a few breaths like you said and keep yourself calm.
Emotional intelligence. The more I learn about it, the more It seems to separate beta and alpha behaviors in every aspect of life.
Could you explain how that is?
Absolutely. The best way to hold frame is to "internalise" what you want to be until you BE it. Then you don't have to "hold" the frame. You are the frame....
The part about women and children testing your frame is on point.
My father told me once that there were two types of parents: those that keep their cool consistently, and those that lose it. I think this notion extends to all types of people and is what makes the difference a “grown up” and a “man child” today. How often are you acting irrationally, fearful, phased, escalating needlessly, or bending to another’s will? Frame strength anywhere in life is one of the primary measures of your progress as a man. This notion goes well beyond relationships.
Great post :) Thanks for sharing :)
What is Frame tho?
https://donlegaraccireviews.wordpress.com/2017/02/22/what-is-impeccable-mindset-what-is-frame-how-to-remain-absolute/
give this a read, especially if you're new here
I have noticed I havent been holding frame really. My girl sometimes gets into her 'moods' where we argue about something, and she sulks and shuts down for a period of 10 minutes to an hour or longer.
At times I get annoyed because we may be watching something and I dont want to be around someone who is so easily affected by an arguement, yet then I realize I am the one who is now reacting to her and being in a bad mood or its ruining my mood.
What types of things can I do in this case scenario when this happens.
She has mentioned before she doesnt like when I walk away as it makes her worse and she then thinks about things more, yet I have seen it work before.
Do I simply act unbothered even though it boils my fucking blood? Or do I get up and do something more productive while shes in a pissy mood.
What if we are driving in a car and shes acting all upset, it seems normal to want to give her shit to snap out of it but that obviously doesn't work.
By the way, I want to add, in nearly every other situation in business, or things not involving a women I'm with... I usually hold frame
Thanks for advice
It's the same advice as always. Would she act all pouty to you if you were Godsgift McChad? No. Find or found a sanctuary were you retreat when you feel the anger coming and lift or do other things to improve yourself there. The bitch is secondary to your self improvement.
Take a deep breath. Then another and another until you calm down. Remember she is emotionally a teenager. Then laugh internally. She's acting out, pouting, like a kid. For attention.
Women are not to be taken seriously. This is something I'm STILL having trouble internalizing myself. But the times I do it makes me laugh at how silly I was to get upset at women for their bullshit.
Ferris Bueller's Day Off is a great parable for frame. C&C Ferris's attitude with Cameron's.
Same w/ Fight Club
most people should not have kids
Excellent article! Thank you!
From Donald Trump’s “Art of the Deal”... “Be a rock”
Hold frame at all time dudebrahski. Maintain the hell out of that frame.
Are there any posts that have practical in-depth examples of how to keep frame and deal with the situation?
There are going to be examples coming up in your real life all the time. Any time you act cocky women will try to dig at you, to test if you really believe you're that awesome or if it's just false confidence you are projecting because you understand that confidence is attractive. NEVER. BACK. DOWN.
This can apply to men too. Men give each other shit all the time to test each other's frame. They just don't call it frame.
What is the book you mention?
When I Say No I Feel Guilty. Amazing book for learning speech and thought patterns to deal with conflict.
The best words of advice that have stuck with me from TRP in regards to holding frame are - respond to situations or challenges, do not react to them.
One way I practice with holding frame is starting conversations with short responses and then throwing a tidbit of my views here and there. I am mostly asking questions and engaging in listener mode, genuinely. I'm mostly quiet and affirm their answers with a "I see", "Understandable", "fair enough", etc. I like to get as deep as possible with a certain topic with them until I exhaust it and have no questions in regards to the topic. It helps to build rapport and even open the floor for more controversial/taboo topics. I like to see what's under people's skin like that. This all sounds really mechanical and rigid, but the opposite is quite true, that it is more creative and dynamic than one thinks. If you think you stepped out of line, you can always recalibrate and move on forward. I personally believe that almost everyone wants to vent and even find strangers easier to vent and confide in, at least that's what I look for.
Shit.. TIL I am one of those other parents. What suggestions do you have for correcting this behavior?
I know now that I was never meant to be a parent, but was convinced by society and my family that it is what I needed. I don't enjoy being a parent, but I try to do the best I can.
When I maintain frame ppl tend to think I'm grumpy or angry. Matter of fact just this weekend an 11-yr old girl said that I always look mad and I never smile. When in reality I'm extremely calm and patient. Made me think
I hold frame quite well- unless I’m exhausted.
My ex-gf used to capitalize on this, by starting fights at night, right before bed- sometimes in bed or even the middle of the night.
It was infuriating. When someone fucks with you at 2am, even if you win, you lose (sleep).
Sharing a place of rest, is one of the worst parts of a LTR. It’s like sleeping with the enemy.
Do attractive men need frame?
As an attractive man (and formerly a complete pussy & theta - not even beta - due to constant emasculation from my mother from ages 8-20) I can tell you it’s is essential for any successful man to have a rock solid frame.
There is nothing that makes me more rock hard than my manager telling me “the girls are too intimidated to ask you for help” (where before I used to bend over backwards for anybody). Since I’ve learned to hold my frame my confidence has soared (cheers TRP) and it’s one of the most important things in any part of your life.
A firm “No” is one of the most magical words in the English language.
ask any A list celebrity who has been divorce raped. what a dumb question.
Flirting with your kid's teachers seems like a bad idea to me.
As long as he keeps his frame, continues to do NoGravity, and StandShitting he should be alright and pass all her shit tests with ease