What's your counter argument for the feminist argument that men's issues are because of the patriarchy and feminism is trying to smash the patriarchy?

ShortTailBoa · 2021-01-24T04:27:18+00:00

It's just victim blaming. This is like saying the reason the jews in germany were opressed was because of zionism.

It's absurd.

mikesteane · 2021-01-24T08:39:58+00:00

"All women's problems are the fault of feminism. Women used to be happy being wives and mothers, but now they are not happy with anything."

disayle32 · 2021-01-24T09:05:04+00:00

I would ask them how smashing the patriarchy would have saved the Nigerian schoolboys who Boko Haram burned alive in their own dormitories. Or how it will get baby boys the right to genital integrity. Or how it will close the education gap between boys and girls.

ProphetOfChastity · 2021-01-24T04:47:50+00:00

Classic Motte and Bailey argument and pure bullshit. Advance the claim that men are oppressors, and women oppressed and this is "patriarchy." When it's pointed out that men are oppressed as well, retreat to the stance that "patriarchy oppresses men too." When that goes away, return to the original position.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motte-and-bailey_fallacy

If it's truly "patriarchy" that is causing men's problems, it is not actually patriarchy and there's other issues at play.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Ranze/Apex_fallacy

Frosty-Gate-8094 · 2021-01-24T07:03:22+00:00

Men's issues in today's society are not because of patriarchy. Its because of the fucked up government and political system.
Most of which is shaped by feminist policies.

So, NO its not patriarchy to be blamed. Its politicians and feminism to be blamed.

Everything else they say is blame-shifting and deflecting responsibilities. Something feminism is always good at.

Ody_ssey · 2021-01-24T06:27:27+00:00

I have always asked them what would we have in place of patriarchy. They never answered. I was more interested to know, how leadership positions will be given after smashing patriarchy. They don't have a constructive plan for future.

AskingToFeminists · 2021-01-24T09:58:10+00:00

It's trickle down equality. It doesn't work. It's assuming that by fixing women's issues, men's issues will magically disappear.

One good answer is to ask them to be exactly specific : how do they smash that patriarchy, and how does what they do actually help solve men's issues, concretely? I'm sure that feminists wouldn't be content to hear "we'll smash the patriarchy, that's how we will solve FGM", thtry would want a little bit more detail.

This answer is just a cope out, to avoid having to actually think about male's issues and do something about them. It's just magical thinking "it will fix itself once we are done fixing everything we want to fix for ourselves.

It's also mistaking the direction of the arrow of causality. At best, Patriarchy can be considered as something descriptive : those things happen, and that's what we call Patriarchy. Patriarchy in itself doesn't cause things. There aren't regular patriarchy meetings where patriarchs decide how they will oppress people until the next meeting. Which means that smashing patriarchy involve fighting everything that composes it. As such, you can just say "since the patriarchy is not an actual entity deciding to oppress people, it's not by dismantling patriarchy that you stop oppression, it's by stopping oppression that you dismantle patriarchy. Since you just recognized that men's issues are part of what you seek to dismantle, I will reiterate my question, and ask again : what are the specific plans to solve men's issues/the issue I was speaking about before you tried to cope out? "

d_nijmegen · 2021-01-24T04:45:28+00:00

I don't argue this. I lose respect and move on

Ukman_44 · 2021-01-24T12:35:03+00:00

Stalin was fighting to topple the Nazis but that didn't necessarily make him a good guy

Mode1961 · 2021-01-24T12:38:29+00:00

Worst Patriarchy ever in the west. I mean in just about every single measure of society men are doing much worse, from life expectancy to educational attainment to health care spending on gender-specific diseases. I mean sure, men sit with their legs apart on buses and trains and I suppose in someone's mind that is much worse than living 5 - 7 years more than the other gender but still.

Agirlformensright · 2021-01-24T14:09:35+00:00

My sister. She claims she "knows men". I think by listening to what men had to say I know them better. She said men are more thirsty then girls, more men go to jail because they do worse things, and more men are sexist. No proof for any of this. I ask her for proof and she says she "knows men". She annoys me so much. When I told her I was joining the men's rights act she said "yeah, so much sexism against women and you're joining the mens rights act". She's just upset because I listen to people.

2021-01-24T05:02:04+00:00

Patriarchy = civilization.

Smash away ladies.

Nath43673 · 2021-01-24T06:37:58+00:00

There's something suspicious about trying to tie all men's issues back to one "thing".

Patriarchy has to do with access to power, thus fails in coverage since many men's issues have to do with access to wellbeing. Long twisted paths have to be taken to tie men's issues back to it.

Toxic Masculinity is vague and ill-defined (aside from the obvious problems with the term itself), thus fails in specificity.

It shouldn't come as a surprise that these concepts have limited applicability to men's issues, since feminism is not fundamentally about men. It's up to male advocates to evolve them.

mikesteane · 2021-01-24T08:37:05+00:00

Well start by defining patriarchy and prove that it exists.

EricAllonde · 2021-01-24T14:33:53+00:00

Patriarchy is a myth, it doesn't exist. Here's my explanation:

https://www.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/l1xca0/the_patriarchy_myth/gk244x6/

Whenever you're listening to a feminist, remember the iron rule of feminism:

"Whatever feminists claim, the exact opposite of that is the truth."

Test it for yourself, you'll see that it's accurate.

Feminism is built on a counterfactual mythology, which is why the claims and conclusions produced by feminists are all wrong. It's the gender equivalent of Scientology.

windows_n_cheese · 2021-01-24T22:40:23+00:00

It's like saying children being bullied isn't an issue because it's caused by children, bit it is an issue that bullies go home and give shit to their parents

NoMoreMisterMaybe · 2021-01-24T11:31:39+00:00

It implies that the pater part is more important than there being an elite, or that the pater part causes the elite to be corrupt. Given current evidence I'd be hard pressed to believe a matriarchy wouldn't also have an elite that can oppress the majority of people (both males and females fight for hierarchies of their sex in most social mammalian and avian species).

JestyerAverageJoe · 2021-01-24T12:35:38+00:00

I don't waste time speaking to feminazis.

thingpaint · 2021-01-25T03:02:34+00:00

Given the progress on men's issues in the last 40 years they're doing a shitty job of it.

Cfwydirk · 2021-01-24T04:36:48+00:00

That you feel bad their relationship with their father, brother, or creepy uncle Fester caused them to feel let down by men. Those old saws were valid when my parents divorced 50 years ago. They are not today.

iainmf · 2021-01-24T12:02:49+00:00

I don’t argue against this because they have just agreed men have issues that need addressing.

I would probably make the case that ‘smashing the patriarchy’ would entail recognising men’s vulnerability and supporting men who don’t live up to patriarchal norms. Eg male victims of domestic violence.

I’d would also point out that treating women as uniquely vulnerable and weak and seeing men as not needing help is reinforcing patriarchal gender norms.

Smashing the patriarchy doesn’t mean extra help for women, that’s chivalry. Smashing the patriarchy means Seeing women as powerful and men as vulnerable.

SamaelET · 2021-01-24T12:54:22+00:00

I say: No

They have no proof of that because it is false. So just say no

Ensifror · 2021-01-24T17:10:08+00:00

It's just something propel say without ever actually considering whether or not it's true. Let alone explaining how.

PanpsychismIsTrue · 2021-01-24T20:45:43+00:00

My counter-argument would simply be this: if men experience certain serious problems in society that women don’t (e.g. longer sentences for the same offence; rigid expectation to provide where women are allowed to stay home; asymmetric child custody rights; far more likely to get injured or die at work; etc.), then it’s utterly absurd and inaccurate to describe such a society as a “patriarchy” in the first place.

PanpsychismIsTrue · 2021-01-24T20:46:05+00:00

My counter-argument would simply be this: if men experience certain serious problems in society that women don’t (e.g. longer sentences for the same offence; rigid expectation to provide where women are allowed to stay home; asymmetric child custody rights; far more likely to get injured or die at work; etc.), then it’s utterly absurd and inaccurate to describe such a society as a “patriarchy” in the first place.

philippmoreau · 2021-01-24T21:20:27+00:00

My counter argument is that whenever someone tries to eradicate boys and men's issues, some feminists try to suffocate, discredit, undermine and block it, taking advantage of their size (that dates back to the historic context of it, when it was still relevant in the West and by far not as toxic as since several years), which is the truth.

obesetial · 2021-01-24T22:45:29+00:00

It is childish to point to the faults without offering solutions. It's what children do, not adults. When people make negative arguments I urge them to make positive arguments instead.

"OK, patriarchy smashed. Now what? What is you better system and how are you going to bring it about without a bloody anarchy ensuing".

StickNormal · 2021-01-26T07:46:45+00:00

There is no much thing as the patriarchy, all the smashing that feminists are doing is called introducing and normalising institutionalised sexism against men.

JoeSmith1907 · 2021-01-24T06:16:31+00:00

The argument is that toxic masculinity hurts men as well as women.

While the phrase “toxic masculinity” sounds bad, it does not condemn male attributes, but confronts harmful ideals that are seen as “masculine”. Some examples of this are that men can’t have feelings or that men have to be the dominant gender.

So when feminists say that “toxic masculinity” is bad, that’s what they mean. Many feminists just want a better society, and are not misandrists.

Title	What's your counter argument for the feminist argument that men's issues are because of the patriarchy and feminism is trying to smash the patriarchy?
Author	___yj_
Upvotes	45
Comments	62
Date	January 24, 2021 4:24 AM UTC (5 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/l3sd4t/whats_your_counter_argument_for_the_feminist/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/whats-your-counter-argument-for-the-feminist.835454 https://theredarchive.com/post/835454

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