Do women like femininity?

Camille11325 · 2014-06-03T14:34:50+00:00

Your post reminded me of a tangential thought I had earlier this year while I was high!!! Thanks for reminding me because I remember it really "clicking" in my brain then, but couldn't remember to well afterwards. I'll try my best to put it into words. Basically my thought process was:

if feminism’s purpose is to empower women why does it not take pride on its own femininity and instead look to become “as good as men”? things like pushing girls to get into the STEM field, play with encouraging them to believe that they can do whatever boys can do. isn’t the act of trying to become like men defeating the purpose of being empowered through your feminine identity? why do feminists feel the need to push women to do well in fields dominated by men and ignore the things that we are good at — nurturing, empathizing with people, communicating, etc?

i feel that ignoring these feminine qualities instead of acknowledging it and celebrating it defeats the purpose of feminism and essentially reinforces the patriarchy that they are trying so hard to dismantle.

sugarcrush · 2014-06-03T16:44:10+00:00

I think many women are afraid to be feminine because they think it means they are lesser, or weak, or inferior. If you read askwomen or twox or one of the other women related subreddits, you see posts saying exactly this fairly often. These girls avoid makeup and skirts and girly things because they were raised to be strong and independent and being tough (read=like a man) is good but being nurturing and soft and sweet is bad. They think other girls are vapid and frivolous and stupid but they are special and "not like other girls" because they are COOL and strong and can keep up with the boys. They even hate themselves for being girls sometimes.

My question is WHY? Why are masculine traits the only acceptable traits? Why can't I have long hair and painted nails and still do important work? Why can't I wear a pretty dress and still be smart? Why is being a girly girl a bad thing? Why do so many parents keep their girls away from dolls and princess dresses?

Feminism stopped being pro-woman a long time ago. Now it's pro-being-like-a-man.

banditgirl · 2014-06-03T16:15:18+00:00

Yes, I find it ironic that so called "feminists" seem to constantly be trying to prove how much like men women can be.

I personally appreciate femininity, as I expect you will find most of the women at RPW and (stage 5) Red Pill men do as well.

proprioceptor · 2014-06-03T16:10:13+00:00

I know a lot of women who associate femininity with things like weakness, or inability, or dependency. I don't think it's necessarily that those women don't want to be 'feminine', they just don't want to have the other characteristics that they feel come along with it.

TempestTcup · 2014-06-03T14:28:20+00:00

We have been raised to be strong, independent, and tough like a man because feminism told us to. Even most sitcoms and commercials on TV show women as the strong, smart, logical ones and men as buffoons who need to be corrected.

The main reason that feminism encourages women to be more masculine is because the staunchest feminists are very unattractive. They take great pride in their unattractiveness and accentuate it with 200 extra pounds, huge chest tattoos and those large earlobe plugs.

They hate us because we are feminine and we do our best to be attractive. By being attractive, we are creating (unfair they think) competition, and taking the best guys. When feminists say "equal" what they really mean is "equal access to the hottest guys" because, even though they are fat and unattractive, they want their man to be super hot and built.

Edited to add: Look at this girl - she is pretty in spite of all the junk in her face and those horrible earlobes; imagine how much prettier she would be if she hadn't mutilated herself. Also, LOL to the hamster :)

sg92i · 2014-06-03T17:22:15+00:00

...many women, mostly feminists, take femininity as some kind of horrible nightmare..

I think that much of the hatred from women towards femininity is from jealousy.

When women present themselves in ways that gets guys' attention, whether its from presenting in a feminine way or in an overtly sexual way, a contingent of the women who can't compete [due to being less attractive or "too old"] feel invisible & worth less. You can't "fix" being old, or do much about being unattractive but you can try to make it hard for anyone else to present in these ways in an attempt to level the playing field. Unfortunately, this is really a Harrison Bergeron approach to things and only results in, say, jealous mothers cutting off their daughters' hair against their will, or needlessly specific & strict workplace dress codes. Personally I believe that anyone who is happy & in a good relationship is unlikely to have these kinds of insecurities. I know I can't be the only one who has noticed that almost any time a woman gets in trouble at school or at work for a dress code violation, its another woman who complained.

One of the first things the 2nd wave feminists sought to destroy was the use of both feminine & overtly sexual clothing in the workplace, along side with heavy criticism any time an unusually attractive young woman was hired [say to work as a secretary, to appear in an advertisement, or on TV]. Don't believe me? Look at when skirt & dress work uniforms disappeared, and then how the word "bimbo" was originally used. We still see the long term side effects from this with the Real Women™ fat acceptance types [what, so tall & thin people aren't "real"?] who don't want more attractive women selling products in advertisements.

swift-heart · 2014-06-03T20:50:03+00:00

they pretend to like femininity (yay tacky makeup and unflattering fashion!!) but call selfies of athletic and attractive women 'acts of war'. stay at home moms are viewed with both subtle and overt hostility. feminine attitudes are replaced by crudity and sarcasm. and so on.

third wave feminism offers women an illusion of choice while promoting conformity to feminist norms.

TempestTcup · 2014-06-03T14:49:48+00:00

Feminism is actually a form of male supremacy that exists to ameliorate sex differences in favor not of "equality" but with the end result of making everyone men

2014-06-04T03:49:24+00:00

Eh, for myself, I am only mindfully feminine in particular situations... when it makes sense to be pretty and yielding.

I don't do anything to deliberately uglify myself (no facial piercings, keep my hair long), but as I'm working landscaping atm, I can't say I spend a lot of time daily on my makeup or wardrobe-- stylish steel-toes don't seem to exist. I do make an effort when my bf and I go out, however.

Likewise, as I'm presently working, being yielding and vulnerable just isn't really conducive to the capable, competent image I'm trying to project. I'm not an asshole, but I certainly assert myself and offer suggestions and alternatives wherever I find something's not working optimally. At work I want to be the person others look to when they need leadership or guidance, so I can't really afford to be passive. This has definitely not helped me attract men within pools of coworkers, but I think it's a reasonable price to pay for work/financial success.

I save soft, yielding and vulnerable for my boyfriend-- I think he appreciates that I take control out in the world, but am happy to yield it to him within the context of our relationship. He knows if something happened to him, I'd wouldn't run the ship aground in the absence of his leadership, but I also don't make life harder by being obstinate with him for no reason.

As for why feminists find femininity shameful...? I think they're taking an overly-idealized view of what it is to be a masculine man, which is all of the pros you've listed above. They think by emulating male archetypes, they can achieve the same admiration, financial independence and freedom as those masculine men you admire... the trouble is that because they view women as (necessarily) oppressed, and men as (necessarily) privileged, they fail to see the things that men sacrifice to become the business mogul or the James Bond or the tough guy.... which, I think, is why they whine so hard over inequality but aren't willing to really do what it takes to achieve the (masculine) models of successes that they idealize. So because they view feminine women as necessarily weak/submissive/oppressed and masculine men as necessarily strong/dominant/oppressors, femininity becomes a bad thing. The conclusions are more or less logical, but are drawn from faulty premises. Of course, there are pros and cons to being feminine/masculine for both men and women (and vice-versa). There is no reality where you always get 100% of what you want-- there's always going to be a sacrifice to make, no matter what path you choose. They remain willfully ignorant of the fact that men make sacrifices to get what they want-- in fact when anyone talks about the downsides to being a masculine man (ie: as in the MRA groups or in TRP), these women respond with mockery and derision and revulsion rather than compassion... which is why they're never going to part with their faulty premises. =\

So... tl;dr I neither deride nor admire femininity... kinda take it for what it is and use it for what it's good for.

through_a_ways · 2014-06-04T03:54:16+00:00

I think both genders engage in some "solipsistic" behavior. Guys treat girls the way they themselves want to be treated, and vice versa.

Pretty much every straight guy likes sweet, emotional, needy women. Sure, it can get annoying at times, but I'd much prefer a girl who shows vulnerability, desire, and emotion over cold logic, bitchface, etc. I don't want a guy in a girl's body, and I'd wager nearly all men agree with that, whether they say so or not.

What I've noticed, is that guys (primarily from the teens to early 20s, before they wise up) tend to project their desires onto women. After all, he'd be nothing short of ecstatic if a girl walked up to him and confessed her love and unwavering desire for him, right?

So, he projects this desire onto women, and does the same. He knows what he likes, so he figures women like the same thing (this is not conscious reasoning). And so you get stories of nice guys confessing their love for a girl, or clinging to a girl, in the hopes of obtaining a relationship, but without success.

Opposite for girls. Girls want masculine, independent, desirable, and unneedy guys. So they project this desire onto the guys they like, and play "hard to get", accumulate "beta orbiters", and do other things that worsen their chances.

Thing is, girls can get away with this, while men can't, because women are more inherently valuable than men from a sexual standpoint. Both solipsistic behaviors are detrimental, but girls have such high innate value that the consequences aren't bad enough for them to realize what they're doing wrong. Girls will all get dates and fucks regardless of behavior, as long as they don't look absolutely awful. Guys on the other hand, won't.

This is why most men "wake up" at some point, while girls generally don't; there's no reason to "wake up". People with chronic health problems generally know a lot more about medicine than healthy people. Same principle.

FleetingWish · 2014-06-03T18:48:32+00:00

Feminism is a form of communism, because it's goal is to make everyone equal. And like communism, it appeals most to those who have the most to gain from it. If the rubric for attractiveness is no longer femininity/masculinity it appeals the most to people who are less feminine/masculine. They have to support a system that encourages attractiveness coming from things they don't have to work at, like intelligence, or useless college degrees.

They also have to remove the competition. Again, like communism, which functions by taking the wealth away from the wealthy, feminism functions by taking the attractiveness away from the attractive people. They do this by shaming attractive people, calling them stupid, fake, shallow, or worst of all, calling them mean.

See, even though feminism has been only really successful at making hugely omega losers to believe masculinity is bad, they have been extremely successful at convincing attractive females that femininity is bad. The reasons is because they have been able to tie it with "being nice". Women who follow Feminist Lite^tm really believe that feminism is for anyone who is a halfway decent human being. That means if you are nice, you must be a feminist, and if you are not feminist, you must be a misogynist. Women want to think they are nice, and want to be perceived as nice. This means it's really easy to convince women that femininity is bad because it goes against equality, and what nice person wouldn't want equality?

happyhousewife1 · 2014-06-03T22:09:57+00:00

I agree with the general sentiment in these replies. It is very sad that women generally don't look up to feminine women more. Not just in terms of looks. But with things like cooking ability, homemaking, crafting ect. The women I admire most are those who do things like cook a big meal for her family and clean up without complaint because she genuinely gets joy from making them happy and satisfied. Or cleaning up after her husband without snippy remarks (I have some work to do in that front, I catch myself making dumb comments sometimes when its really not needed).

thechuff · 2014-06-04T02:45:35+00:00

Just wanted to say, this is one of the best threads I've ever read on Reddit

expat229 · 2014-06-04T03:25:28+00:00

A male's perspective: Feminism hates femininity because most of the leaders of contemporary feminism do not want to be women—they want to be men.

Feminism are essentially women who hate being women.

Just my 2¢, take it or leave it.

2014-06-04T21:56:33+00:00

[permanently deleted]

2014-06-05T03:15:05+00:00

I think that feminine traits are being seen as a black and white thing. You can't be both girly and smart, down-to-earth, kind, etc. You're either the snobby alpha-female cheerleader or the nerdy tomboy. Those stereotypes always bothered me. I've never been terribly feminine, but people have told me that I am being "fake" when I wear a dress to a formal event or I put on make up for my own entertainment (I love costume and make-up art.)

Title	Do women like femininity?
Author	Joe_Schmoe45
Upvotes	25
Comments	41
Date	June 3, 2014 2:04 PM UTC (12 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/RedPillWomen
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/RedPillWomen/comments/277a2c/do_women_like_femininity/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/RedPillWomen/do-women-like-femininity.84556 https://theredarchive.com/post/84556

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