What do you say when people say that feminism cares about male suicide, disposability, incarceration, homelessness, and health issues too?

factspissyouoff · 2017-03-10T17:57:58+00:00

I ask them to go to the NOW website and show me where they're supporting Equal Parenting legislation. Or Elimination of Alimony. Or Women in the Draft. Or where women are stepping up to haul half the trash, or clean half the sewers, or extract half the resources, or refine half the materials, or construct half the buildings, or build half the infrastructure.

It shows a level of ignorant stupidity that just shocks the Id.

double-happiness · 2017-03-10T18:58:56+00:00

https://www.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/g2eme/feminists_tell_you_that_the_solution_to_mens/

Edit: I wouldn't rule out the possibility that individual feminists care about these issues though. In contrast to the positions that feminist organisations often take.

Rasalom72 · 2017-03-10T18:15:28+00:00

The exact same thing you say to anyone making any claim. What PROOF do you have... as in facts and figures.

How much money has any feminist earmarked for men's domestic shelters? How many marches/ walks/ protests are being planned to combat male suicides? How much awareness are feminists putting into male cancer rates?

When then can't show you jack shit, you will know what they are full of.

Mallago · 2017-03-10T23:44:42+00:00

That actions speak louder than words.

Then a list of links of feminist politicians and organizations doing the opposite. Like

Feminists in India arguing against legal rights for male rape victims

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/Activists-oppose-making-rape-gender-neutral/articleshow/15049606.cms

Feminists in Norway arguing against gender neutral conscription: http://www.newsinenglish.no/2013/04/22/norway-closer-to-drafting-women/
The feminist student officer, Bahar Mustafa, student welfare and equality officer at Goldsmith's university in London, tweeting "Kill white men":

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/bahar-mustafa-charged-with-sending-malicious-message-after-tweeting-kill-all-white-men-a6683241.html

The self-identified feminists Sophie Linden advocating to pass a law to fine homeless people $1500 for being homeless on the streets. The homeless population in Hackney is nearly 100% white and and male, as is in most of London, thanks to a very lond-winded effort by feminists who have effectively taken control of councils. Homeless men in London are routinely denied housing and shelter and assistance of any sort in London by councils, it's a crazy almost conspiracy-esqe scenario I caught while living in London for over a year. I've posted about it before, but there's no one link that would explain it. It's almost surreal. Here's the link to the fine. Sophie Linden is Deputy of crime and Justice in London now, and the mayor has announced a 50 million dollar plan for homelessness- hidden all throughout these documents is language that more or less excludes men from services. This article hints towards what's going on, and note the links on the bottom:

https://www.london.gov.uk/press-releases/mayoral/sadiq-sets-out-plans-for-fund-to-help-homeless

And here, a good example- they use the term "vulnerable" as a code word to exclude men, who are ruled non-vulnerable. See towards the bottom, 3rd to last paragraph, where it says they will focus on the 320 "most vulnerable rough sleepers"...there are thousands of homeless in London, with only a minority being women. So why 320?

https://www.london.gov.uk/press-releases/mayoral/mayor-sets-out-42m-for-vulnerable-rough-sleepers

The documents for the new plan are intentionally very convoluted and confusing to read, in order to subtly add the language that will prevent men from receiving assistance. There was a great example of one with a line that said "assistance for women and mental health sufferers align more with priorities..." that I wish I had saved. But just comb through any of the ones of the government page, little lines peppered everywhere:

file:///C:/Users/Owner/Downloads/rough_sleeping_commissioning_framework%20(2).pdf

NOW Florida fighting against alimony reform which would end permanent alimony, like the kind that force a 73 year old man with Alzheimer's from receiving care:

https://archive.is/QFulc

And I could go on, and on, and on. Feminists in South Korea fighting against benefits for those conscripted- only males are conscripted in South Korea. The feminist "sex lab" in Canada constructing and intentional false study to "find" that circumcision doesn't cause any loss of sexual pleasure. The Duluth Model, which instructs police to arrest male victims of domestic violence when they call for help.

Also, the hypocrisy- why should it be up to women-based movement to decide what male issues are, which ones matter, and how they should be dealt with? With the deal feminists make about mansplaining, it's unbelievably hypocritical of them to say that know know what it's like to be a man better than a man does.

So, I don't buy it. It's such a bullshit claim I wouldn't know where to begin.

rawbface · 2017-03-10T18:48:14+00:00

The problem is, you (or they) are anthropomorphising the term "feminism". Like, "feminism" isn't a person with a strict set of beliefs and values, however there are feminist organizations all over the country and the world. You can simply point to the platform of one of these feminist organizations and ask where the focus on men's issues is exactly?

Tedesche · 2017-03-10T21:56:08+00:00

I tell them that all I've ever seen is the occasional lip service article paid to men's issues, never any real activism or support. The most I've seen quoted to me in terms of actual action on men's concerns are things like "VAWA helps men too!" and "feminists got 'made to penetrate' accepted by the FBI!"--both of which are incidental benefits to men, and not the point of either of those bits of activism (VAWA was originally exclusively about women, but congress wouldn't pass it without it including men, and the campaign to update the FBI's rape definition was mainly about getting marital, oral, and anal rape included; in fact, no explicit request for 'made to penetrate' being included was made, it's just that the revised language happened to encompass it).

In short: feminists are little talk and no action on men's issues--and they know it. Protestations that "feminism fights for men too!" is really just a response to the allegation (whether real or just perceived) that feminism is either hostile or callous towards men. It's a statement designed to pull in male support for feminism, and simultaneously reject the notion that feminism ever infringes on men's rights. I simply point out that there is a metric fuck-ton of feminist material out there that is hostile towards men, and so anti-male sentiment and rhetoric within feminism is not a fringe element. Then I point out things like NOW's opposition to child custody and alimony reform, the recent pushes to abolish women's prisons, but not men's, the push for toxic masculinity courses on college campuses, hashtags like #killallmen and #maletears, and make the case that anti-male sexism is actually present in the feminist mainstream. Feminists typically have stock excuses for toxic masculinity and the hashtags (TM is about helping men shed their traditional gender role and the hashtags are jokes), but I make it clear that I'm not buying it--how to address the issue of toxic masculinity with feminists is complex though, and not something I'll get into here.

Here are some questions for feminists you might want to ask on the issues you mentioned:

1.) If feminists care about male suicide, why haven't we seen ad campaigns addressing it?

2.) If feminists care about male disposability, why aren't they campaigning for an end to the selective service?

3.) If feminists care about male incarceration, why are they fighting exclusively against the incarceration of women?

4.) If feminists care about male homelessness, why aren't they setting up male-only homeless shelters?

5.) If feminists care about male health issues, why aren't they petitioning the government to set up menshealth.gov or getting more money spent on prostate cancer?

EDIT: And because I'm in the mood, a few more:

6.) If feminists are against male circumcision, why aren't they joining with intactivists and campaigning to get it abolished?

7.) If feminists care about the sentencing gap, why aren't they raising awareness about it and pressuring judges to be fairer in their sentencing?

8.) If feminists care about how poorly boys are doing in school, why aren't they funding boy-only projects to address it and creating male-only scholarships?

2017-03-10T18:56:30+00:00

"Prove it"

LD_in_MT · 2017-03-10T19:22:29+00:00

"Citation, please."

ohms_law · 2017-03-11T02:23:04+00:00

What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.

TheCitizenAct · 2017-03-10T22:37:06+00:00

Why then, from the 1960s onwards, has feminism redefined class warfare to conceive of women as 'the new proletariat' and men as 'the new bourgeoisie' (ie, their oppressors)? Men are to feminism what an enemy is to nationalism: 'the other.'

The very notion feminism is capable of supporting men when it deems, under second-wave feminism, men to be their 'oppressors' is patently absurd.

If anyone cares to doubt this - the exploitation of identity as a proxy for class warfare, which is a primary basis behind the rise of Trump - then just check this documentary by the BBC: https://youtu.be/sCRohDqWDcw?t=254 (I've linked to the correct time).

Either that or read the making of the feminine mystique.

2017-03-11T00:20:34+00:00

Ask them for evidence.

rg57 · 2017-03-11T05:01:47+00:00

I ask them how. And I ask for proof. And I provide counterexamples.

I ask them that if killing babies by bleeding-out and herpes is something feminists are against, if my body is my choice, then why do they put that "F" in front of GM?

If they are against honor killing, which in the UK has about 25% male victims, some of whom are killed for being gay, why do feminists in parliament laugh about male honor killing, while attempting to introduce a bill to protect only female victims, explicitly excluding the male victims?

damac_phone · 2017-03-10T19:12:24+00:00

I would say they are doing a pretty shitty job of trying to fix anything

4man · 2017-03-11T01:59:52+00:00

Pics or it didn't happen.

2017-03-11T05:10:26+00:00

I'd ask them to back up the statement with examples.

boringcarpets · 2017-03-11T09:45:58+00:00

Easy: "show me"

IamaspyAMNothing · 2017-03-11T10:01:12+00:00

Ask them why they work so hard to silence those who bring up these issues

This_is_my_phone_tho · 2017-03-11T13:24:12+00:00

Well, first of all I make sure they know I'm talking about Feminism and not them personally.

Then you just ask for proof. Not some blog post or some website that states it's important, but ask for examples of activism. If you're feeling squirrelly, you could show videos of feminists obstructing discussions about men's rights.

Debates are exhausting because you spend most of your time looking for sources you remember reading/writing but didn't bookmark. If you want to be an autist about this it helps to keep a word doc with links and short descriptions. other wise you google the same shit over and over.

MizterUltimaman · 2017-03-11T20:35:25+00:00

Actions speak louder than words, all talk no walk, etc

Title	What do you say when people say that feminism cares about male suicide, disposability, incarceration, homelessness, and health issues too?
Author	[deleted]
Upvotes	67
Comments	33
Date	March 10, 2017 5:04 PM UTC (9 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/5yn8a0/what_do_you_say_when_people_say_that_feminism/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/what-do-you-say-when-people-say-that-feminism.929562 https://theredarchive.com/post/929562

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