Why does society not respect men anymore?

CWBECK · 2016-05-26T14:18:26+00:00

It seems that like a lot of societies in the West at this point have gotten to the point where men are just viewed as bumbling idiots or violent rapists while...

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I think the root of this is even earlier, it is a side effect of capitalist production, where the work is removed from the home and its benefit abstracted through a paycheck. It's a prime example of Marxian alienation: Women are removed and isolated from all the things men are doing for their benefit, they don't witness it, and as such can't even register, much less appreciate, it.

The women in times past that were bringing the lunch to the field, they saw it. While there was division of labor of course, according to the gendered strengths and weaknesses, women and men, at least in the lower classes, still usually largely worked in the same or adjacent places.

But as specialization and capitalist production modes became more sophisticated, and the place of work and the place where you lived became physically separated more and more and more and more peopel "went to work" every day, men and women didn't have that shared experience anymore, and when it became feasible for women to stay home altogether and just do the house work (that was becoming less and easier with evolving technology), this effect became even greater.

[–]balifore 1 point2 points3 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

I think the root of this is even earlier, it is a side effect of capitalist production, where the work is removed from the home and its benefit abstracted through a paycheck. It's a prime example of Marxian alienation: Women are removed and isolated from all the things men are doing for their benefit, they don't witness it, and as such can't even register, much less appreciate, it.

That's a beautifully concise version of what I was trying to say.

But as specialization and capitalist production modes became more sophisticated, and the place of work and the place where you lived became physically separated more and more and more and more peopel "went to work" every day, men and women didn't have that shared experience anymore, and when it became feasible for women to stay home altogether and just do the house work (that was becoming less and easier with evolving technology), this effect became even greater.

Yep, I completely agree. There's a part of me that says men created feminism when they reduced housework with technology to a few hours a day/week.

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This is a very strong point, but I don't think it's the whole issue.

Agreed. Something like this is going to be incredibly complicated and have multiple factors. In fact, I tend to think that the welfare system only arose because of gynocentrism, but that's a rant for another day.

Another major point leading to men being devalued compared to women is the elimination of masculinity due to the belief in "equality" when women have inherent value (wombs) while men do not.

I can see where you're coming from, but, men do have inherent value, as workhorses. Every building, road, water/gas pipeline, electricity cable and power plant is built and maintained by men. I think the elimination of masculinity is only possible because women were no longer being supported by individual men, but by the state (extorting men). This removed the reason for respect.

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Seriously? Top Comment? The problem is the welfare state?

Yep, collectivism is bad. It incentivises failure whilst extorting the productive.

They don't respect us because of something they don't know... but if they did know they'd totally change their tune?

Ah, that's not what i said. I said it was the reason they no longer respect men. Nothing short of total economic collapse or war on the home ground is going to put respect back into the princess culture.

You can be against the welfare state without shoehorning it in wherever possible.

I'm trying not to shoehorn it in. I just think that breaking up inter-gender links and replacing them with the state causes inter-gender relations to sour.

Some women don't respect men because there is a narrative going on that we're less than human brutes who have oppressed our way through history and are currently responsible for all of society's ills and feminism is telling them they are oppressed and victimized and men are privileged.

I don't disagree that this is whats happening. What I'm saying is that it's a lot harder to convince someone that they're being oppressed by someone if the "oppressor" is the one making sure they have food on the table and clothes on their backs.

The welfare state keeps men and women from falling into homelessness, starvation, and death.

Well, no. Not really. It keeps people in poverty, by incentivising living on the government dime or taxing them blind to pay for those who don't feel like working.

The welfare state is very bad at determining the deserving poor and not. This means that the deserving poor receive less than they would under a private charity system and enables the thieving poor to milk the state for handouts, creating a breakdown in social cohesion.

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Obviously this is off topic for the sub. I won't respond further other than to say those are great theories, but you don't have anything that proves them, and I couldn't disagree more. I would honestly love to sit down and reason out some of our differences.

If you get bored drop me a line, I really enjoy these sorts of conversations as I tend to think they're the only ones that matter.

I'm also happy to concede that I could be wrong, and I'm happy to change my opinion based on evidence. I'd rather be right than consistent.

Thanks for being civil as well, it's not uncommon for disagreement to be expressed in less reasonable terms.

However, you DID say that women have lost respect for men because they don't know they rely on us and if they did they'd be nicer. It's fundamentally flawed. It's really really really a reach and you have cited nothing but your personal opinion, such an extraordinary claim requires something other than right wing rhetoric and a strong suspicion.

Ah, a slight misunderstanding. I don't think they would be nicer now if they were informed. I just think they were nicer before because they did know.

Someone else in this thread said it much more eloquently:

I think the root of this is even earlier, it is a side effect of capitalist production, where the work is removed from the home and its benefit abstracted through a paycheck. It's a prime example of Marxian alienation: Women are removed and isolated from all the things men are doing for their benefit, they don't witness it, and as such can't even register, much less appreciate, it.

I don't necessarily think it's a huge reach to say that you're more likely to respect someone obviously sacrificing for you than being a member of a group that unobtrusively sacrifices itself for society. Especially when that group is daemonised.

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Uhhhhhhh.... no. I see what you're saying, I see why you're saying it, I'm just not ready to sign up.

And what created those issues?

'The Tender Years Doctrine' and it's adoption by the court system is what caused it.

women having children without fathers because government is an as good/better provider than the father

No, even if the father is making nothing, he still brings in an extra government paycheque. Government also doesn't cut the grass, watch the kids, help with the dishes, etc. Have you ever been a single parent? It's 3 times the work.

because if a woman leaves a man she'll take a portion of his income with her

Yes, this is a real problem. It's a bi-product of the tender years doctrine though and won't be an issue once men get equality in court.

Why do men loose custody battles?

Again, the tender years doctrine. That and the rate of false accusations during divorces is extremely high and government agencies have institutional bias against men.

Because women control 56% of the vote and politicians want to get (re)elected.

I won't check your stats, but I will say that most men who have been victimized by the courts and their ex-wives have mothers, sisters, daughters, aunts, girlfriends, and a host of other women who are just as negatively affected as the man. Equal custody has a great deal of political support. I know that national women's organizations do put pressure on politicians to maintain the status quo, but that's lobbying much like the NRA, and not quite the same as what you're saying.

There's a reason Bureaugamy is the #1 issue. Virtually every MRM issue can be traced back to it.

I don't agree. I don't think respect comes from dollars contributed. Will you respect women more or less based on their tax contributions? I and everyone I know wouldn't even think about it. Respect comes from mutual understanding and common benefit. Women aren't leaving men and taking the kids because of lack of respect, they are in relationships that don't work out and when they decide to leave (or are left) they have the institutional power. I feel like you think that women will fall in line and behave if they realize they're second class citizens. It's not a realistic model for how people think or behave.

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Probably best not to spark up before commenting. Your hippy is showing.

Is this subreddit all one parody of a femminist subreddit.

It deals with the relationship between the sexes if that's what you mean, yeah.

It really is not okay

Why not?

As a male I am actually happy with every thing that is going on in this country.

Good to see you're observant

Wait til you get married or have kids. Watch as you are legally turned into an indentured servant, under penalty of jail.

Aside from The middle east and such everytjng is okay.

How about the deeply troubling situation occurring between Russia/China vs US/EU?

Or the incredibly tentative global economy which has far too many people who predicted 2001 and 2008 saying there's another one coming soon that will make 2008 look like a picnic.

Or the deeply fucked up situation in the EU where unelected bureaucrats are destroying nations with mass migration at such a rate that integration is impossible?

This whole "Women are being opressed!" or "Men are being opressed!" is honestly what is wrong with America

Oh no, it's really not. It's a conversation that had to happen, but up until now, we've only heard one side of the argument. The funny thing is, just like the whole housework oppression bullshit, when the scales are actually properly measured, women are going to be shown to come out pretty damn well out of the equation.

Why can't we just all get along and accept our faulties

Because there are liberals trying to remove the ability to speak freely, via fines and ostracism for dissent. I don't tolerate fascism.

and just be happy that we are a society that is full of mixed cultures

Why is having a mix of cultures a good thing? Surely it is at best a neutral thing? I mean, having multiple cultures in the same area reduces community cohesion and social trust. This lowers the standard of living for EVERYONE.

and ideas about advancement.

We should be happy with the incredibly regressive ideas that are being proposed that will eventually lead to the collapse of western civilisation as the underpinning pillars are slowly destroyed in the name of tolerance?

In, lets say, 100 years maybe even 70 none of this will matter.

Correct, demographics are destiny. Say goodbye to Europe in less time than that, and America soon after unless they chance immigration policies.

Equality really can not be reached

Incorrect. There are two main forms of equality. Equality of outcome and equality of opportunity.

The equality we hear about every day, is equality of outcome, and yes, that will never happen. Some people are faster/stronger/smarter/tougher etc than other people. It means forcing everyone to run at the speed of the slowest and less ground is covered by the group as a result.

That's why we have calls for 50% of CEOs to be female etc.

Equality of opportunity on the other hand, means that everyone plays by the same set of rules. It's a pure meritocracy, and that's what we used to have, particularly before the 70s That's what we should be aiming for.

To judge people, not on their gender, race, age whatever, but instead to judge them on their ability to do the job.

but what we can reach is joy and serinity.

Sadly, I don't think this is going to happen. This decline has the full force of human nature (Gynocentrism) behind it. The only thing that trumps Gynocentrism is physical danger.

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Yes I'm from America and I've always thought that I was in the middle, never really siding with one party over the other. So it surprises when some says that the idea of working for what you have is being conservative. As a matter of fact it scares the hell out of me. When did the Democratic party stop being the party of the working man? I've grown up knowing that the Republicans tend be in favor of the wealthy, but now the Democrats only want to look out for those that have made a career out of unemployment. It goes to show how far away from the middle our two parties have traveled when the only thing they can agree on is when to give themselves a raise they haven't earned. And when our young men see this and think that they too deserve that kind entitlement we wonder why no one respects men anymore.

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Well said!

Thank you :)

We live in a time of handouts.

Yep, politicians buying votes with candy.

No one believes they should not have to work for anything anymore, young men included.

Agreed. I'm in the nearly 30 group of "millennials" and the number of scroungers and general layabouts is just horrifying. Not as bad as the younger end of my generation, but still. Utterly terrifying.

We're razing our children to believe that everything will be handed to them,

Yep, the culture of everyone being special and a winner in their own right is incredibly damaging. We improve because we fail, without failure we cannot improve.

and we're getting to a point where those that are contributing are being out numbered by those that are not!

Yep, what is it now in the US 45% not contributing? It's about 25% in the UK, but we have a bigger welfare state.

It's getting a bit John Galt for me to be honest. At some point, you become a mug if you keep feeding the system.

That is the real problem with this country ineedweedhelp420.

Yep, campuses have a lot to answer for.

My parents always taught me that you will never respect anything that is given to you half as much as something that you worked for.

I couldn't agree more. Earning something is far more rewarding than being gifted it, but then you have to have earned something to figure that one I suppose.

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And even that is bad for men, women, and society.

Playing by the same rules leads to women's suffrage which allows government to steal from men to bribe women for their votes, which is lead to a 2000% increase in the size of government relative to GDP (and no, that's not a typo).

Oh I entirely agree that universal suffrage was a massive mistake. Removing the link between taxation and representation is bad however you do it. I tend to think that you shouldn't get the vote unless you are taxed. Which extends into an argument about taxation in both body (national defence) and money.

Equal opportunity into medical schools has created a massive doctor shortage because women don't behave like men. Over 50% of female doctors are no longer working full time by 10 years after graduation.

Yeah, I agree this is a series problem. I think it would be better solved with the university contract though. X number of hours over Y number of years else you start paying back the training costs. Something to that effect.

So, no... equality can't be reached, because seeking it is self-destructive to a society.

I agree, but the problem isn't exclusively men or women. There's plenty of male feminists for example. Non gendered solutions are more effective.

It grants nothing that is worth the massive price tag that it has.

It's like the immigration debate, everyone is so radical about it. There's a happy middle ground between "fuck the borders" and "bar the gates", just as there is with gender equality. Equal, but different.

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First off I did not "Spark up" I am actually sober and just would like there to be a peacful dissagreement with all of this contraversy.

Because there are liberals trying to remove the ability to speak freely, via fines and ostracism for dissent. I don't tolerate fascism.

By saying this it sounds like you just enjoy having the last word. If there is soon going to be no ability to speak freely then no one can say anything "Opressive" or "Offensive".

Why is having a mix of cultures a good thing? Surely it is at best a neutral thing?

America is considered a melting pot of cultures. Granted I wouldnt want communism and terrorism in this country, but if you think about it without differing thoughts over a political system we could renenforce all of these "at best neutral" things and make them a positive. I am not a hippy and definetly not a part of the whole counter culture movement but what I am a part of is the thought that both sides of this arguement need to understand it can never end good and no one wins.

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First off I did not "Spark up" I am actually sober and just would like there to be a peacful dissagreement with all of this contraversy.

But you say this subreddit is really not ok?

By saying this it sounds like you just enjoy having the last word.

No, really, I just don't like people denying others the right to speak. It's fascism.

If there is soon going to be no ability to speak freely then no one can say anything "Opressive" or "Offensive".

And that's a bad thing. Some people need to be offended. If we didn't have the right to give offence, then there would be no civil rights.

America is considered a melting pot of cultures.

Yes, E pluribus unum, out of many (cultures), one (culture).

I.E, the exact opposite of multiculturalism, which you're suggesting is a good thing:

accept our faulties and just be happy that we are a society that is full of mixed cultures

Granted I wouldnt want communism and terrorism in this country,

Which is why open borders is fucking stupid.

but if you think about it without differing thoughts over a political system we could renenforce all of these "at best neutral" things and make them a positive.

No, we really really couldn't. State coercion is a bad thing. State coercion ends up in things like Guantanamo bay, or the Lubyanka building. It's a slippery slope.

I am not a hippy and definetly not a part of the whole counter culture movement but what I am a part of is the thought that both sides of this arguement need to understand it can never end good and no one wins.

So what youre saying is that people should just suck it up and suffer injustice?

No thanks, I have a spine.

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Yeah honestly people should stop gettjng upset over the gayest things "Men dont have equal rights." So what if men don't I am living a great life with these "restricted" rights and I have not complained once.

Well, not everyone is as happy to roll over and accept injustice as you are. Personally, I consider that a good thing.

Every kne suffers from injustice and plus having a dick or havjng a vagina does not actually dictate what you can and can not do.

Go tell that to fathers for justice.

Women don't have less of a chance in the world the whole arguement of men get payed more is bull shit but on the other hand its people like you and this subreddit that keep the fire going.

Why do you think that the pay gap argument is now starting to be generally considered BS rather than a talking point that the most powerful people in the world (like, say, the POTUS) use? I wonder if it's perhaps that people like me and those on this subreddit?

If no one responded to this it would all die down and this whole thing would be somethkng no one cared about.

And we'd all sing kumbaya and roast marshmallows over the fireplace.

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Title	Why does society not respect men anymore?
Author	CWBECK
Upvotes	23
Comments	76
Date	May 26, 2016 2:18 PM UTC (10 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/4l5icx/why_does_society_not_respect_men_anymore/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/why-does-society-not-respect-men-anymore.948779 https://theredarchive.com/post/948779

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