Feminist, LGBT orgs threaten to ‘take action’ when Christian group invites them to debate

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[–]chocoboat 1 point2 points3 points 11 years ago (11 children) | Copy Link

It's also pointless to have a debate with people who think that facts and logic are less important than feelings.

There's nothing to be gained by engaging people who think that their imaginary friend matters more than your right to bodily integrity, or that their favorite storybook proves that the existence of dinosaurs is nothing but a hoax, or that aliens are shaping our society using mind control devices.

Now, was the threat of legal action warranted or was it a severe overreaction? That depends on the details of the situation, which aren't included in the article. Clearly there's a little more than "hello, we'd like to debate you, are you interested?" happening here. This sentence hints at what else is going on-

“We have no desire to hear from Mike Adams who has routinely mocked us and engaged in hostile and belittling behavior towards our organizations and beliefs. We have no desire to attend any event sponsored by your organization and its narrow beliefs steeped in religious bigotry and intolerance.”

If the Christian groups had been repeatedly mocking/threatening/attacking the women's group for a while now, then the threat of legal action is sensible. If not, then maybe not. We can't judge without knowing the whole situation.

[–]EvilPundit[S] 4 points5 points6 points 11 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

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[–]marswithrings 0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

It's also pointless to have a debate with people who think that facts and logic are less important than feelings.

but this description is at least as apt, if not more apt, when directed at the type of feminist organization that turned down the debate offer here.

furthermore, i don't know if you know more about the background of the christian group in question here that's not stated in the article – i just have this article to go off of – but i don't see anything here that indicates this group is a crazy fundamentalist christian group. nothing here indicates they think dinosaurs are a hoax or that aliens are shaping society using mind control devices... surely, such people exist, but is it safe to assume the christian group in question is that extremist?

you're assuming the absolute worst of the christian group here; i think you forget many of those groups are fairly normal. and that, even under the worst of circumstances, their beliefs and debate methods are probably still comparable to extreme feminist groups. i mean heck, people around this sub often joke about how feminism is so much like a religion these days.

you and i might agree they're crazy but they would be playing by the same rules if they went head-to-head, so i'm not sure your point is really relevant to these particular groups

[–]chocoboat 0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

but is it safe to assume the christian group in question is that extremist?

Define extremist. They want to use the legal system to take away people's reproductive rights and control of their own bodies, because their personal ideas about religion say that abortion is wrong.

That position is more extreme than some people realize, I think. How would you view a Catholic group that was trying to outlaw eating meat on Fridays, just because it goes against Catholicism? I don't mean just for Catholics, I mean forcing all of the US population to follow that rule. It would be kind of crazy.

(now imagine they had the power to start making this happen, and all restaurants and grocery stores stopped selling any meat products on Fridays in southern states...)

and that, even under the worst of circumstances, their beliefs and debate methods are probably still comparable to extreme feminist groups. i mean heck, people around this sub often joke about how feminism is so much like a religion these days.

That's not exactly a defense for it! If facts and logic are responded to with "that doesn't matter, my beliefs say this, so everyone has to do this", then it's not a debate. It's just free advertising for insanity.

[–]marswithrings 0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

Define extremist. They want to use the legal system to take away people's reproductive rights and control of their own bodies, because their personal ideas about religion say that abortion is wrong.

you're begging the question and making emotional appeals; this is exactly the sort of stuff you accused these extremist groups of doing.

i'm not interested in actually debating abortion with you, as that really isn't relevant to the point at hand, but you're definitively not giving fair representation to the other side of the argument here. they want to use the legal system to prevent what they believe to be murder.

if they are correct and abortion is morally equivalent to execution, they have a damn good point. again i'll stress, i'm not saying one way or the other, but the entire basis of your argument about them being extremist is based on the assumption that they're wrong; that abortion is morally acceptable.

That position is more extreme than some people realize, I think

i think you just unwittingly described yourself...you're just as bad as they are! you're acting as a self-proclaimed moral authority backed by emotional appeals and logical fallacies, declaring anyone who disagrees with you to be an extremist so far out in left field that they aren't even capable of debate.

don't get me wrong, if we could somehow objectively determine the morality of abortion and you were right, well, your argument would hold a lot more water. but it's all built on the assumption that you're right about a moral issue that we can't really have an objective answer for. morals aren't generally objective in the first place, and when exactly the contents of a pregnancy qualify as an actual human life... that answer rests in a null zone in between science and philosophy.

That's not exactly a defense for it! If facts and logic are responded to with "that doesn't matter, my beliefs say this, so everyone has to do this", then it's not a debate. It's just free advertising for insanity.

i don't know that i've necessarily said otherwise. whatever you want to call the show they would put on if they agreed to have this "debate," both groups (under the worst circumstances) essentially would be acting the same way. "that doesn't matter, my beliefs say this, emotional appeals, brush facts under the rug," they both use them.

it's like these feminists groups want to play tennis all the time, and have consistently refused to deal with groups like ours because we play football and that's too rough or something. now they've got another group who's challenging them to a tennis match, and they still won't play. they'd rather knock ace serves into the wall all day.

doesn't matter to me if you think we can call it a debate, i just think the feminist groups should have played their own game

[–]chocoboat 0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

you're begging the question and making emotional appeals; this is exactly the sort of stuff you accused these extremist groups of doing.

Begging the question? That type of logical fallacy has nothing at all to do with this situation. And the line that you quoted has nothing to do with emotional appeals either. That line is simply a factually accurate statement. (No, the pro-life people aren't doing it just to be assholes or because they like to take away people's rights, they have what they believe to be important reasons, but my sentence still accurately describes their actions.)

but the entire basis of your argument about them being extremist is based on the assumption that they're wrong; that abortion is morally acceptable.

Oh ok, I see where you're coming from now. I wasn't trying to say that all pro-life people are like that. I was referring specifically to this Christian apologetics group, whose purpose here is to use their religious beliefs as a way to control others. This is a group that claims to know what God wants and uses people's fear of disobeying a deity to gain support for their political positions. Groups like these are incapable of rational discussion, you can demonstrate a dozen different ways why society is better off having legal abortion, and it simply doesn't matter to them because "God says no" or "The Bible says it's wrong".

Pro-life people who do not base their entire position on what they think a deity might want... these people are entirely different, and are worth debating with. They don't play the trump card of "nothing you said matters, because God".

i think you just unwittingly described yourself...you're just as bad as they are! you're acting as a self-proclaimed moral authority backed by emotional appeals and logical fallacies, declaring anyone who disagrees with you to be an extremist so far out in left field that they aren't even capable of debate.

Hardly. I base my position on what's best for society, and have reasons that demonstrate why we're better off with abortion than without it. I can explain my position using facts and logic, and don't reject the ideas of others because of a belief that supernatural beings are on my side.

morals aren't generally objective in the first place, and when exactly the contents of a pregnancy qualify as an actual human life... that answer rests in a null zone in between science and philosophy.

Even if we supposed that life begins at conception, I'd still be pro-choice. No person has the right to make use of another person's body without the permission of the owner of that body. Every person has the right to deny the use of their own body to another person, even if the other person will die because of it. Forcing someone to go through pregnancy is no different than forcing people to donate a kidney.

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That may be a reason to say, "no thanks," but not threaten "further action" if you contact them again. Aside from which, without knowing anything about the group in question explicitly, their purpose statement is not really sounding hyper-fundamentalist to me:

Ratio Christi provides a safe and charitable venue for atheists, agnostics, skeptics, and adherents of any religion to investigate the claims of Christianity, discuss religious beliefs, and seek truth without fearing reprisal. While this is a distinctly Christian organization, any student is able to become a member and learn, debate, and explore the connection between faith and reason.

If they actually stick to that first bit, they sound more like a Christian philosophy group than a fundamentalist group. I guess the speaker might be regarded as such, though. I dunno. Seems like there might be going on behind the scenes here than is being reported.

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[–]squeak6666yw 1 point2 points3 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

On a large scale your probably right but i did have a good conversation/debate with my Lutheran friend. I put it on him to prove to me the bible says homosexuality is bad and we both agree he couldn't use Leviticus because of all the rape stuff.

He responded with a passage about sex out of wedlock. I walked him threw the passage (after i read it) and pointed out it only about sex out of wedlock. And said this more proves you should let them marry so they can go to heaven because according to this god is just made they did have a ceremony not that its two guys or girls.

He almost agree with me. I left him with good food for thought. I miss my debates with him. He would listen and debate instead of just shut down.

I like talking about that stuff because i look at religion like philosophy and you can debate philosophy.

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Title	Feminist, LGBT orgs threaten to ‘take action’ when Christian group invites them to debate
Author	EvilPundit
Upvotes	50
Comments	49
Date	February 16, 2015 9:58 PM UTC (11 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/2w4erh/feminist_lgbt_orgs_threaten_to_take_action_when/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/feminist-lgbt-orgs-threaten-to-take-action-when.987944 https://theredarchive.com/post/987944

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