I am so utterly fucking sick of the vast majority of feminists

Call_me_Kelly · 2015-01-03T02:59:41+00:00

I'm fed up too. I'm a woman and a feminist. I also consider myself an mra. As someone who retired from a male majority career field in the military I have a few pet issues that I champion. I forced my squadron to follow the AFI for breastfeeding when I birthed my sons because I wanted to provide them with the best start in life. I forced them to create a nursing/pumping room. I also battled a great deal of sexism in aircraft maintenance by properly taking issues up the chain of command.

But Beyonce did a dance in front of a feminism sign! Amazing.

Seriously, this year has tanked. Berating a scientist for his shirt... really?

It's shameful.

However, the men's rights side of the house has made real progress, especially in parental rights. Take note ladies! Champion real causes and perhaps we'll get somewhere in 2015.

Eulabeia · 2015-01-03T03:36:13+00:00

people who make a point about the fact they don't understand your argument, and then act as if their ignorance is a problem with you and your argument rather than their own stupidity

I just want to say here that it really is your job to effectively communicate an idea. While the people you spoke to may have been being deliberately obtuse, you should be making yourself as clear as possible to leave no room for doubt that's what they're doing.

2015-01-03T16:12:40+00:00

Feminism is a religion. Arguing with a feminist is like arguing with a fundamentalist Christian.

guywithaccount · 2015-01-03T07:00:09+00:00

What most people call "feminists" can be split into two groups: man-haters and confused egalitarians who think they're in the same group as the man-haters.

People say the egalitarian ones are the real feminists, but they're not feminists at all. They're egalitarians. It's just that feminism has been lying about being a gender equality movement for so long that millions of people actually believe that shit.

The man-haters are the real feminists. They're the ones who believe that there's a giant conspiracy that oppresses women for men's benefit and that therefore naming a supposed gender equality movement after one particular gender is a perfectly sensible thing to do instead of a crazy one.

There's no point talking to feminists, unless it's to call them out for being the deranged lunatics they are - because they are deranged lunatics. You'll never successfully reason with them.

You can talk to the egalitarians, but it's hard, because they think they're feminists. Fortunately there's a trend toward people realizing that feminists are insane and that men actually have issues, and some of those egalitarians are, if not actually becoming MRAs, at least walking away from feminism.

Lrellok · 2015-01-03T04:29:17+00:00

have you tried what i refer to as logical extension?

Feminist; Feminism is about gender equality!

Me; So you feel women should be equally as disposable as men?

Feminist; What? NO! Women are not disposable!

Me: So men should not be disposable either then? So you support a gender neutral definition of rape and recognize that the number of forced to penetrate rapes are equal to the number of forced penetrations two years running?

Feminist; What? No, female on male rape is impossible!

Me; Equality how?

Continues for several hours of entertainment.

MeMyselfandBi · 2015-01-03T04:26:55+00:00

When I was transitioning between feminism and men's rights, I found myself cherry picking between both stances, but then shit like this (among other factors) pushed me away from feminism completely. Ultimately, I think the gender disparity exists on both sides and in different ways, but until I find a women's rights group and people associated with it that aren't just feminists in disguise, I'm going to have to settle with what I know from men's rights issues and work on what I can.

I still wish there was a way people could approach all gender issues and explain that being a men's rights advocate or activist doesn't intrinsically mean that you don't acknowledge any issues that women face. It's like saying an animal rights activist is against the environment because animal rights has nothing to do with the environment.

I can acknowledge and address the issues of women being objectified when intending not to be, just like I can acknowledge that same kind of objectification that boys face. It's not the objectification that is the problem, it's the situations in which the objectified party is not complacent in the objectification (ergo, intending to be sexually objectifiable), and it's also the situations in which objectification causes low self-image of those who internalize these objectified people.

How hard is it to grasp that people are more important than society instead of the other way around. Society isn't the one committing suicide or self-harming, people are.

2015-01-03T12:39:53+00:00

What I find frustratingly amusing is how I'll come up with some great comment backed up with tons of verifiable statistics, and then the first replier will come along and tell a personal anekdote which get's 10x as many upvotes as my comment did. I see the same thing on reddit and facebook. Anekdotes > statistics, dispite statistics basically being a neutral collection of anekdotes.

iainmf · 2015-01-03T02:39:57+00:00

That's because feminism basically has the idea that 'women are oppressed by the patriarchy' as a statement of faith.

TheRabid · 2015-01-03T02:10:19+00:00

I propose that you don't have a problem with feminists per see. You have a problem with narrow minded people who are logically think through an argument.

atheist4thecause · 2015-01-03T02:53:26+00:00

I have tried discussions with feminists. I have gone to /r/askfeminism, and /r/twoxchromosomes, and I have spoken to feminists on tumblr and TheStudentRooms. It's always the fucking same.

Woah, deep breath. Lets talk about about how to talk to feminists, and what to expect when talking to feminists.

You can make a totally logically sound arguments

I'm sure you make many good points, but remember that people often have a tough time accepting they are wrong. You might not get them to admit they are wrong, but that doesn't mean you didn't plant a seed.

Also, try to look at things from their perspective making some of the assumptions they make. It will help you understand what to take on. If something makes logical sense to you, but they start with a faulty assumption that impacts how they interpret what you say, it often won't matter how logical your points is. The fact is that they started with a faulty assumption that you need to tear down first.

arguments against it that are fucking irrelevant and completely missing the points

Sometimes they might have valid objections to your points. Try to see things from their perspective as best as you can, because that will help you understand where these objections are coming from. Also, don't be scared to tear down "irrelevant" points, because they said their point because they believe it. Either show how they are wrong or show why it doesn't apply to the situation.

and then act as if their ignorance is a problem with you and your argument rather than their own stupidity

I don't think this is something worth getting frustrated over. This is quite common in all disagreements. You and the feminist don't agree from the start, and don't expect them to hear what you say and suddenly be convinced. That rarely happens when talking about any subject.

and people who just seem to write utter, meaningless, semi-literate garbage where they take about a fucking paragraph to write the most simple point

Just drop the emotional baggage, point out that one story does not necessarily represent a larger point (and if they claim it does ask them to demonstrate that it does), and take on the spirit of the point. If you wash away the crap you might find gold.

And all this shit gets upvoted.

So what? You're talking on feminist pages. Of course they are more likely to agree with the feminist than you, and even if they don't, they are likely to upvote the feminist out of loyalty. The key isn't to win by persuading the majority of people, if you persuade anybody or planted any seeds then you had a constructive exchange.

you get fucking downvoted and your opinion is fucking considered unacceptable by these fucking myopic back patting dogmatic narrow minded cunts

Quit worrying about votes! They don't actually matter. A feminist coming here will likely face the same treatment you get there in regards to votes.

because if you don't entirely agree with the opinions du jour you're treated with all the fucking respect and consideration as a monkey who's been taught to shit in the shape of swastikas.

Has anybody ever told you that you are funny when you're mad? Try not to show them that you are getting upset. That will just make things worse. If they say something stupid just keep pushing your point over and over, especially if it's a really good point like 50% of child sex victims in New York City are boys according to a '08 BJS study, yet those boys have far less resources than the girls. They will usually avoid this and make fun of you for it, but the more you push the point and the more they make fun of you for it the worse it makes them look to others and eventually they themselves will feel guilty about it, especially when you point out that they are ignoring child sex trafficking victims and you aren't willing to ignore those victims.

It fucking stinks. Its totally suffocating

As frustrating as it gets, it just feels that much better when you actually convince a feminist of what you are saying.

SJWS are so far into topsy-turvy lala land that any fucking sensible or logical arguments seem bizarre to them.

Try to avoid insulting terms like SJW. If you insult them they are less likely to listen to you. I avoid swearing, too, but I'm not much of a swearer to begin with.

They believe there buzzwords and buzzphrases like "rape culture" are axiom and the burden of proof is on those who believe they don't exist.

Well, it might be logically faulty, but these buzz words can be disproven. Take the opportunity to disprove them, especially with examples of statistics and stories that contradict their buzz words. (For instance, patriarchy exists yet 85% of the homeless population is male. How does that make sense? That will at least create dialogue.) If you don't know where to start ask them to define a term like patriarchy, accept the definition, and then show why they are wrong about the issue. Never try to get into a semantic argument about what a word SHOULD mean.

Here's an excerpt of a response to something I posted on /r/twoxchromosomes.

Honestly, I found your quote to be kind of hard to follow. I think you can word that better. I give you the benefit of the doubt and I try to figure out what you mean, but a feminist that doesn't agree with you and doesn't particularly want to agree with you isn't going to give you the benefit of the doubt.

One thing I noticed is you said "I see no reason to think..." Don't say what you don't think, say what you do think. It's a stronger stance.

YOU'RE the one making the claim which is based on fucking ZERO EVIDENCE.

Honestly, I would shy away from this kind of argument. You are right, but it's not an effective way to argue. If they won't give you any reasoning whatsoever for why they think what they do then make some assumptions and let them correct you. Then adjust your argument.

Anyways, I hope this helps.

TheCitizenAct · 2015-01-03T16:09:19+00:00

It's not just feminists who behave this way, these behavioural patterns exist within many left-wing movements.

It's all about constructing a narrative. The narrative, at the core of feminism, is the patriarchy, or 'the systemic oppression of all women by all men and for the purposes of ensuring male privilege.' Needless to say, nowadays we've gone so far left, cultural Marxism has had such an impact, that this is now a plausible and accepted narrative among Parliamentarians, 'academics' and champagne socialists.

But at its heart it's just a cryptic form of fascism. Anyone found to be disagreeing with the narrative is brown beaten with the 'sexism', 'racism', 'misogyny' or 'xenophobia' stick. You can point out the narrative is false till you're blue in the face but for those who are invested in it, emotionally, economically, socially and politically, it serves as a useful tool to rile you up even further and to provide the context for the valid application of one of their social stigmas (typically, in the case of feminism, it's 'misogyny').

It's basically age-old prejudices being reversed and used against men. It's exploitation of negative social stereotypes for their own political, social and economic gain.

It says everything that needs to be said about modern society that anyone found to disagree with 'impervious to criticism' feminism or the intangible and mythical patriarchy is immediately deemed a 'radical.' In the UK a similar narrative has been cultivated about immigration; any and all opposition to completely open borders and the extension of national welfare on a global scale must be denounced as 'xenophobic' or 'racist.'

The narrative is their vehicle and your disagreement, and objection to being stereotyped or categorised, is their fuel. Your objection is their proof. They are fundamentally dishonest and rotten to the core.

How do you tackle it? Don't become emotionally invested in it. Don't let them goad you. You have to argue them down, logically, and rely on on the lurkers and onlookers to make up their own mind. You'll never, ever convince a feminist, or a multiculturalist, to change their viewpoint. You can influence the onlookers, though.

MonkeyCB · 2015-01-03T03:39:34+00:00

You need to forget about the logic and go feels balls to the walls. And sprinkle on some shaming language, make them feel like racists, sexists, and misguided trying to do what's right but only getting it wrong.

Fuck arguing with those people, time to start messing with them.

BeeeeboBrinker · 2015-01-03T05:43:23+00:00

Please tell me this is a troll.

/r/askfeminism has 11 subscribers and hasn't had a new post in the last 6 months.

/r/twoxchromosomes isn't even a feminist sub. It's a default filled with "relationship issues" that make most feminist's skin crawl. The top post right now is from a woman who is embarrassed that her bf knows she poops, for Christ's sake.

And tumblr? Are you seriously trying to have an intelligent conversation with someone on tumblr?

You haven't been trying to communicate with "the vast majority of feminists", my friend. You've just been pissing in the wind.

axsis · 2015-01-03T09:05:53+00:00

I have a fair amount of respect for Wendy McElroy. But it won't be long before she ends up in the dissonant or anti feminist category.

Consensus and popular opinion are dangerous when they are more important than facts.

2015-01-05T07:11:48+00:00

Feminism is inherently anti-male the entirety of patriarchal theory ensures that men can never have their issues addressed. It further ensures that feminism can never be questioned by the people it hearts by marking those people "Oppressors" or "Misogynists".

Feminism is hate speech.

2015-01-05T14:55:23+00:00

Yup, same story here.

Used to call myself a feminist, even proselytize a little to my friends, started getting involved with actual feminists and was just dismayed at the utter contempt for intellectual honesty. Actually well meaning people got bullied out of their positions and had their careers destroyed because they deviated from some of the more insane and sex-negative feminist positions.

Then GWW happened, and I found out that the numbers on rape have been tampered with... I found out that male victimization rates have been hidden from the conversation by simply defining them out of existence. I started scrutinizing other quite central feminist claims: the wage gap, domestic violence, the glass ceiling as well as the very nature of male/female interactions (oppressor/oppressed)... and every single time the feminist narrative shattered like glass under the slightest bit of scrutiny. I realized at this point that it was time for me to stop associating with these people.

I was at a real crossroads at that time. What was I gonna stand for? Was I gonna stand for all that I considered to be good and moral and just? Or was I gonna stand for what seems to actually be real?

The first moral stance however is meaningless if it's not based on the second, so I'm an anti-feminist now.

Not because I hate women, but because I value the truth.

SamHarrisFan · 2015-01-03T05:50:20+00:00

Last time I made a ranty post like yours I got banned :'(

A lot of people replied to yours so you will prolly be ok.

Even the moderators here sometimes give into the idea of censoring mens feelings in favor of womens feelings.

Ovendice · 2015-01-03T07:14:04+00:00

One of Feminist's biggest problems (and American women in general) is they're so utterly out of touch with reality and so incredibly ignorant and uneducated it's unbelievable.

I was arguing with a self-proclaimed Feminist once about why most all inventions (of true significance) have all been invented by men and why she thought that was... and her response? "Well, that was all a long time ago and now everything has been invented and there's nothing left to invent."

Just SO incredibly ignorant of just even the simplest things. I haven't been to high school and college in decades.. are they teaching women anything at all in school? I don't get it.

JayBopara · 2015-01-03T10:33:19+00:00

Agree with almost everything you have written in your post. You are spot on. That's why arguing with feminists is only useful for getting experience in debating and arguing. Debating with a feminist is like debating with someone who believes the Earth is 6000 years old. They only believe in feminist dogma no matter what evidence you present.

chavelah · 2015-01-03T17:22:20+00:00

I am a feminist, have always been a feminist, have many IRL friends who are feminists whose ideology and activism I am proud to be associated with. I no longer seek out explicitly feminist conversation on the Internet, because the dial has shot up all the way to crazy.

DavidByron2 · 2015-01-03T04:36:09+00:00

feminists will always tell you how they're diverse bunch who believe many different things

Yeah that's bullshit; they all believe the same. But pretending to be a broad movement is their way of dismissing complaints of sexism and bigotry within the movement.

"NAFALT"

Oddly when saying nice things about the movement like saying "the dictionary definition is.... blah balh blah" feminism is all the same when it's a good thing.

jarjarlink · 2015-01-03T02:57:18+00:00

When you get a bit older and have a career, you'll have more perspective

FuckJuice · 2015-01-03T02:31:45+00:00

Congratulations, you've discovered that women are herd animals. Don't be mad at their willful ignorance and desire for conformity, it' simply in their nature.

Title	I am so utterly fucking sick of the vast majority of feminists
Author	FuckJuice
Upvotes	23
Comments	80
Date	January 3, 2015 1:54 AM UTC (11 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/2r5twy/i_am_so_utterly_fucking_sick_of_the_vast_majority/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/i-am-so-utterly-fucking-sick-of-the-vast-majority.991405 https://theredarchive.com/post/991405

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