Does believing in some "red pill" talking points make me a misogynist? I don't exactly see how they're false

avoiding_a_stalker · 2021-07-25T21:24:45+00:00

Yes, a lot of that is not only misogynistic but pretty darn ignorant. Women are people with lived experiences.

I'm not going to debate any of this with you because frankly, I've done enough of that in my life, but if you want to have an open conversation, I'm happy to do that.

Here's my take on those points:

The Pay Gap

If you mean women aren't oppressed in that they're allowed to vote, sure, we're not oppressed. But there are a lot of things that still aren't available to us in the same way they're available to men. Domestic violence and rape statistics show that women are disproportionately affected by many crimes perpetuated by males. Not to mention, when men are affected, usually it's other men committing said crimes.

The wage gap is due to a number of things but picking a field of study we "like" vs what's lucrative likely isn't the biggest factor. Not only are women primed for lower-paying jobs from a young age (typically liberal arts), but research shows that even within industries with similar experience/education requirements, female-dominated jobs are paid significantly less. Not to mention, once women start to enter a male-dominated field, the pay drastically decreases in said field.

Women are also much less likely to obtain management positions than men. This may be for a number of reasons, such as women being seen as less reliable due to the burden of childcare being placed mainly on them, but it still shows that women are less valued in the workforce and in a lot of society.

Women in STEM

We absolutely need more women in STEM. We need to stop priming women to take on jobs in childcare or liberal arts, just like we need to stop priming men not to do those things. People should be able to go into whatever career they want, regardless of gender. But you don't see men complaining about not getting into teaching or whatever because the pay is lower than in STEM. It goes both ways.

You're right about there being no reason for women not to be in construction or the army or whatever. There is no reason aside from men. A lot of blue collar jobs are major boys clubs where women are treated poorly and harassed to hell. I work in a few male-dominated blue collar industries. I enlisted as an engineer in the army, I tree planted this season, and I studied computer sciences for a while. I had the same experience in all these male dominated fields; being treated like I was less capable, less valuable, less.

In CS, I frequently had male colleagues seem upset when the prof told them to ask me for a solution to a problem they were struggling with. They'd actively avoid interacting with me, even in regards to school.

And yes, that's annoying, but in blue-collar fields, it's worse. The army is currently dealing with a ton of sexual assault allegations against high-ranked individuals. Sexist comments are made on the regular and it's an uncomfortable environment all around.

The further you dive into the blue-collar, male-dominated fields, the worse it gets. Tree planting is even less accessible to women than the military is and my experiences have been worse too. A female colleague of mine was raped twice in her first two weeks on the job and then was fired. Our health and safety representative covered up the rape and then made rape jokes towards the remaining women throughout the rest of the season. Company management often participated in that behaviour.

So yes, women should be in construction and on oil rigs, just like men should be running daycares and teaching. Maybe once we fix the pay and safety issues in some of those fields, it'll be less of a problem.

Betabux

The idea that most men aren't supposed to reproduce isn't true. Many species prefer to create monogamous relationships as opposed to polyamorous ones. In species in which offspring require a great amount of care (humans, for example), it is more beneficial for offspring to have two parents who will look after all their needs than to have one devoted parent (as the males typically do not have a big role in upbringing in "harems"). This means a greater chance of offspring surviving and a greater chance of the parents' genes being passed down. Wolves, penguins, beavers, and many types of primates mate for life.

Among those that don't, harems also aren't the only relationship form seem. For example, some primates will do large multi-male/multi-female communities where everyone mates with each other. And yes, some do form harems where one male mates with multiple females, but there are also species in which the reverse is true. For example, with honey bees, many males each reproduce with a single female.

Male Struggles

Yes, male struggles are often undervalued and that's something we absolutely should work on. However, it's worth noting that many of these struggles happen to be caused by other males. For example, the male suicide rate is significantly higher than the female suicide rate. I've worked with many male suicide survivors and a lot of the time, it's their fathers, brothers, and friends who create the toxic environment in which they feel they cannot get the help they need. Does that mean that women don't contribute to it? Absolutely not; women play a role in screwing men over, just as men play a role in screwing women over. However, it seems that women are disproportionately affected in many of these areas (physical violence, emotional abuse, eating disorders, pay gaps, domestic labour, etc), whereas there are fewer areas in which men are disproportionately negatively affected.

Nonetheless, we absolutely should look at male issues, just as we look at female issues. Just keep in mind that this also involves looking at men who cause/perpetuate issues for other men, just as we look at women who do the same to other women (i.e. women who encourage EDs are heavily ostracized).

Inareskai · 2021-07-25T21:32:13+00:00

So much of this is wrong, there's so much to unpack. And I have neither the time nor the energy right now. Suffice to say, yes many of these views are misogynistic and most if not all are false or are based on some evidence but a wild conclusion to draw from it e.g. women in one study said they were looking for one thing and went for another during speed dating, therefore never trust what women say about dating. Like... probably the conclusion of the actual study was like 'women in this particular study are more likely to change their mind about a variety of traits if they get on well with someone'.

Similarly, when people talk about these rough jobs no one ever brings up the large number of blue collar jobs such as care home workers, textile manufacture, domestic help etc. All of which are honestly fairly grim, often difficult/unsafe/unsanitary jobs that are mostly filled by women. It's not like all women are like 'ahh, we'd have equality if only there were more of us in STEM' like... no. What. It's literally one area that has one group advocating for it, it's not like it encompasses the whole of equality and that's all anyone cares about. Jeez. Again, you've looked at one thing and just leapt to the most extreme conclusion you can from it rather than actual, reasonable, assumptions like 'oh, maybe this is a field that many women study but don't seem to choose to get jobs in, that's weird, I guess some people are looking into that to see if there's a way to encourage these capable and educated people into taking roles in that field' - doesn't say anything about other, blue collar, jobs or anything like that. Because, turns out, you can care about advocating for change in multiple places at the same time. I know. Wild.

This is already more effort than intended to spend on this post right now, because each point in itself has so much to unpack and explain in it that really putting it all in one post is too much.

Tl:dr - Way too much to unpack here, but the short answer is 'the facts in and of themselves are fine, the interpretations/explanations you've given to those facts are misogynistic and often narrow in focus so as to miss the many, many other possible explanations in favour of one that's incorrect and a shit way to view women'.

Giftedwithreddit · 2021-07-25T21:45:27+00:00

Men being more likely to be geniuses doesn't matter when most men are dumber than most women so we as a society should agree to stop bringing up intellectual differentiations between the two genders because it's useless and doesn't add up to anything.

TeandScones · 2021-07-25T21:04:27+00:00

These are your opinions that you are trying to pass as factual information. You are biased to seeing your own opinions in real life and have no unbiased data or unbiased blind scientific studies to back up your claim. You of course find information that fits your narrative. So by continuously saying “how am I wrong” is like me saying I feel like men are just not as good of cooks as women (my opinion), every family I know the wife was the head cook (my biased observation to fit my narrative). Sure are there some professional male cooks, yeah. But women are just better, Tell me I’m wrong. Well I can’t argue with your opinion, but if we did a study we would probably find men and woman are equally capable of being great, and shitty cooks, because anyone is capable of either. So to argue why I think your wrong, is just arguing opinion vs opinion, and based on a million social factors, our history, observations, and views are vastly different. So trying to convince you otherwise feels pointless and exhausting. If you didn’t want to have misogynistic views it’s up to you to change that, it’s not up to women to change your mind for you. Imagine this argument was made as if you were racist. It’s not up to someone of that race to convince you they’re actually a decent person, the responsibility is on you to educate yourself on a different view point.

controversyonly · 2021-07-25T22:01:04+00:00

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xvszero · 2021-07-25T20:48:57+00:00

Yeah, most of that is misogynist, and false.

Also, the fact that you actually care about a lot of that dumb shit is the most misogynist part of all of it. For example, it might be true that say, in Chicago, blacks commit more violent crime than whites in general, but the people who run around talking about this all the time tend to be super racist as shit. It's not just "data", people are choosing to focus on some data, ignore other data, etc. to paint bigoted pictures, and yes... that's bigotry.

mercinarary · 2021-07-25T20:31:31+00:00

Ya this is all very misogynistic and ignorant of women’s issues.

_Terrible_Advice_ · 2021-07-25T21:06:31+00:00

Verifiable facts are usually best found from unbiased sources.

I only read the first few points but as for those STEM fields, computer science was largely a women's field until it was deemed to have more monetary worth. Then men pushed women out of the field and we are still trying to bounce back.

Jobs such as construction jobs and oil rigs still laregely hire men because of physical requirements. Women still are willing to work them but aren't taken seriously as canidates.

And the two highest recorded IQs both belong to women. There would probably be a lot more if third world countries didn't systematically punish women for learning or going to school.

If you want to look up more to help grow and get rid of some of these misogynistic views, I recommend looking up Lise Meitner, the discoverer of Nuclear Fission. She had her work credited to Otto Hahn. Scientists at the time were so outraged by her lack of awknowledgement they named the next discovered element after her (109).

History erases the contributions of women in science fields. My physics teacher in high school showed us a documentary about it. He was the teacher that encouraged me to pursue a field in science.

Quarnivorr · 2021-07-25T21:48:00+00:00

Okay so this is a lot to go through but I'm going to try:

Point 1 / Oppression: Women are still oppressed in the West but not in the same way that other women are oppressed. Look at the current abortion issue, women are still not allowed to be in control of their bodies and their choices are made for them by people that cannot have abortions. There is currently an issue where Roe v Wade is about to be overturned where abortions would become illegal. Also, Texas just had an issue where a person can report someone else for having an abortion for a reward of $10,000. A woman that has a miscarriage can be considered a murderer for having a miscarriage. A woman that has an abortion can be put in jail for longer than an actual murderer. If a man encourages a woman to get an abortion, he takes none of the responsibility and if he wants, he can leave the relationship and only do child support if he wants. Essentially the woman is mostly punished in this sense.

Point 1 / Wage Gap: As a woman that works in STEM, I do make less than my peers and it also makes me leery of becoming a mother because mothers are actually hit the hardest. Women that have children actually do not make as much money because they are less likely to be promoted and given more responsibility. Why? Because people already subscribe women to being homemakers and caregivers. Some women are still fired for becoming pregnant because the business views them as a loss of work because they believe that a woman cannot handle a job and children at the same time. Conversely, a man that makes it known he has children is actually promoted more and given more leadership opportunities because it shows that he can juggle multiple responsibilities. Both the man and woman have a child to take care of together but men are viewed as favorable and women unfavorable. They both have more responsibilities but it just works out in a man's favor more.

Point 2: Yes a woman can be a construction worker if she wants; no, women are not pushing men out of these jobs. Men have pushed women out of these jobs. Why? Because it is something that they like to do but that does not mean they are wrong for it. However, we encourage more women into STEM because women are largely stereotyped as not being smart and unable to do math or science. Fun fact: It was a woman that invented programming and her name as Ada Lovelace. Another fact, women used to do computer work because men considered it beneath them but now the script has flipped. This is due to the gender roles of men lift things and women sit. Anybody should be able to do any job that they want.

Point 3: So for this point, lets just say that women and men are not animals. Animals do not choose their partners based on personality. Do some women choose men that are attractive and have a lot of money? Yes, but men do the same thing but inverted. Men choose women based on attractiveness and whatever he thinks that she can provide. A lot of people like this are materialistic and I think you may be subscribing to the wrong kinds of people.

Point 4: Women are not unsympathetic to men's struggles as a lot of women tend to hold caregiver jobs and tend to be more empathetic. Why? Because from a young age, girls are subscribed to the idea to be caregivers and unpaid therapists and this continues with them through life. Also, when a woman is talking about her struggles and someone chimes in "well men have this issue too" or "not all men", it's rude. It's essentially telling a woman that her feelings and experiences are invalid. It's like if my house was burning and you told me "Well Jimmy's house burned last week", that does not stop my house from burning and basically it's like you're telling me that I can't be upset that my house is gone. We can talk about men's issues but not in a place where someone else is trying to air their grievances and ask for support. Besides that comment that "women struggle more" is invalidating to men's issues but both sexes are struggling in their own way, why are we making this a contest of who is suffering more?

Point 5: For this point, I don't have enough information on this topic to form an opinion. Maybe someone else can help out a little bit?

Point 6: Another point that I hope someone can help with since it deals with the sexual side and I don't have enough information/experience to explain it well.

Point 7: So let's start off that everyone has a different level of intelligence but that does not subscribe to the idea that we have more male geniuses than female geniuses. We have more popular and known male geniuses than female geniuses. Remember when I mentioned Ada Lovelace, stories like hers happened often before women were given rights and allowed to be individuals not attached to a significant other or other male authority figures. A lot of women have invented things and found different pieces of life but have had their ideas stolen because it would be "better" if a man said them. J.K. Rowling didn't write the Harry Potter books under her name because fewer people if any would buy them if they knew she was a woman. But look at how popular her books are now but that was after people realized that it was not a man writing these books. Even today in the modern workplace, men still talk over women and repeat their ideas as their own and take ownership. For the sake of it, while it is not all men and some people are just assholes like that, it is mostly men that tend to not give women chances to speak.

AMBAC_hermet-o-matic · 2021-07-25T20:02:28+00:00

Women are people dude you gotta knock that shit out

avoiding_a_stalker · 2021-07-25T21:27:16+00:00

Also, out of curiosity, how are you verifying these "facts"? It sounds like you've taken a lot of this at face value without any context. Unfortunately, things in life aren't black and white. Facts require a lot of context to be accurate, especially in the fields of psychology and biology because organisms are so highly variable. This isn't meant as an attack; I just see this a lot and always wonder how that line of thinking works

Melvin-Melon · 2021-07-25T23:49:27+00:00

The issue is you’re still looking at half the population as a group that almost all have similar behavior. People (men and women) vary greatly from each other even if some patterns can be observed there are no absolutes. Having preconceived notions about women as a group can lead you to unintentionally treating a woman a certain way based on her being a women even if she as an individual doesn’t meet the characteristics you believe she would because she’s a women.

Also yes women need to be pushed to STEM for the reason that STEM classes and work environments can be really toxic towards women like in the viral video of a girl in her STEM class where you can hear multiple males making jokes about raping women. Many women have faced sexism when going into STEM fields so there’s nothing wrong with putting time and effort into encouraging women to overcome that sexism since it’s an extra hurdle for many women and results in fewer women joining STEM fields.

Also I won’t accept women aren’t oppressed in the west until women can have access to sterilization the same way men can. Women will be told they need two children and approval from their husbands before getting permanently sterilized but a man can have a vasectomy with much less push back. Yes it’s less than it was in the past but just because women can now have their own bank accounts unlike their grandmothers doesn’t mean all of women’s issues are solved.

I agree men’s issues should be taken more seriously but it’s not just women who’ve downplayed men’s mental health or other struggles. And if your female friends are grabbing your ass and not respecting you saying no, get them out of your life. Any decent person would tell you that’s not okay and you have no obligation to put up with people who don’t respect your bodily autonomy.

controversyonly · 2021-07-25T20:15:30+00:00

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softnmushy · 2021-07-25T21:37:33+00:00

Nobody has time to explain to why every one of your points
is wrong. For all we know, you could be trolling or just looking for attention.
I’ll address your first point: “Women aren't
oppressed in the west, and a large portion of the wage gap is due to different
choices men and women make. For example, a lot of my female friends, when
picking a major in college, pick something they "like". I just went
for whatever major would make the most money regardless of how I felt about it.”
Here’s why it’s wrong: Women have a
long history of oppression in the west and it has not yet gone away. For
example, only 102 years ago, women were not allowed to vote in much of the US. Until about 50 years ago, husbands were
legally allowed to rape their wives. This was explicit in the law.
The cultural values and habits that allowed such
oppression and misogyny still exist, even though the laws have improved. I
agree with you that the wage gap is complicated, and really not the best
example of oppression anymore. A better
example is that it can be very dangerous for a woman to be alone out at night.
And that domestic violence is still so prevalent.

Half-Ice-Half-Fire · 2021-07-25T21:13:08+00:00

Do you have discord? we can have a discussion if possible.

nebthefool · 2021-07-25T22:55:44+00:00

Ok, I'll bite.

Going through your points in turn.

-This point is a yes and no for me. I don't think women are uniquely oppressed for their sex in the west. For the most part at least. I think it's quite a complex give and take between the sexes where you really have to break things up by demographic to be certain. It's true that more women are going into college/ university than men at the moment and I believe has been for some time. It's known that more of the people that commit suicide are men.

I think it is fair to say that either both men and women are oppressed in different ways in the west and will experience advantages and disadvantages due to their sex from different societal and cultural expectation placed on them. You could also say neither are oppressed for their sex, but will have a fair chance of dealing with unfair disadvantages because of their sex.

-Once again this is a yes and no for me. I'm all for removing barriers from anyone getting the education they would like in a subject they have interest in. Women are present in a lot of stem fields and majority in others. That's cool, I do worry that pushing people into STEM will potentially cause problems when you inevitably push people into a degree they don't want. Broadly I think it would be better to try and erase demographic's from recruitment processes. That way you could eliminate potential biases in much the same way medical trials use blinds/ double blinds to do the same.

-This is one hell of a statement to make. I would really like to know why you think it's for definite that this is the way it is. For example, monogomous bahaviour is also observable in humans as well as other mammals. So why do you think harems are 100% the way humans "should" reproduce. I think you do men and women a diservice saying "women do seem to gravitate towards the same type of men" because the same guy may be attractive to multiple women but for different reasons. People contain multitudes.

-Women are people and people are capable of empathy. People are also capable of being insensitive assholes. The assholes tend to be louder and more obvious. The fact that you have met women who fall in the asshole category doen't preclude the existence of the other. People are also capable of being both because people contain multitudes.

-I think it's generally a bad idea to take dating advise from most people. Dating is a social skill and literally every social skill is learned by trial and error and making it up as you go along. I can't critique a study I don't have a link for but I think it's fair to say a dating study using people who are speed dating is going to have a biased sample group of people. People who are speed dating are typically there because they are unsuccessful at dating.

-There are lots of different sexual preferences in the world. In terms of it being impossible to have someone more dominant in the bedroom but more passive elsewhere I can cite myself as an example. I'm a pretty shy person a lot of the time and I don't love to be in charge if I can help it. When it comes to sex however I super love being *ahem... large and in charge. This is actually really easy for me to do because (say it with me) people contain multitudes.

-I mean. I don't know how true this is. But it's fair to say if you state "men are more likely to be geniuses" without the additional "men are more likely to be idiots" you are intentionally cutting the data in half and creating a statement that reinfoces biases.

Broadly some of what you've said here is pretty biased and treats both women and men as a monolithic entity and not as collections of individuals. A woman is an individual whole person. So is a man for that matter.

In terms of drawing the line between bigotry/ biases and verifiable facts. That can be tricky. But I recommend vetting the facts you find. Always question what your told. Check the sources and consider if the facts you are given are intentionally leaving out part of the picture.

thatspositive · 2021-07-27T00:49:19+00:00

Saying that the wage gap is "women getting paid less for the same work" Is a little disingenuous, but saying the wage gap is "fake" or "has nothing to do with discrimination" is also equally, if not more disingenuous.

To clarify, the wage gap is largely caused by differences in careers and hours worked between men and women.

https://www.payscale.com/data/gender-pay-gap

However, this doesn't mean that the gender wage gap has been "debunked" as many people will try to tell you.

We need to examine the reasons why women work in lesser paying careers and work less hours. Perhaps some of it has to to do with biology, but there's also plenty of research to show that discrimination plays a role here too.

For example:

When men and woman are equally qualified for a position, employers have a bias towards hiring the man (in general, obviously this can vary from profession to profession)

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/262682077_A_Meta-Analysis_of_Gender_Stereotypes_and_Bias_in_Experimental_Simulations_of_Employment_Decision_Making

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/325472277_Promoting_concern_about_gender_bias_with_evidence-based_confrontation/link/5c9d0b0d45851506d7312d3d/download

https://www.pnas.org/content/early/2012/09/14/1211286109

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4554714/

https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s11199-011-0012-7

https://www.semanticscholar.org/paper/COMPETENT-YET-OUT-IN-THE-COLD%3A-SHIFTING-CRITERIA-Phelan-Moss-Racusin/51c49b8e006667bff0fd6590fec7f29278185cc1

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5729935/

2021-08-08T14:03:46+00:00

NotinRedpillBubble · 2021-08-29T15:46:55+00:00

NotinRedpillBubble · 2021-08-29T15:48:02+00:00

Women and men have the same IQ on average but men tend to be also smarter and dumber….even Jordan Peterson Said this stuff

Title	Does believing in some "red pill" talking points make me a misogynist? I don't exactly see how they're false
Author	controversyonly
Upvotes	2
Comments	70
Date	July 25, 2021 7:56 PM UTC (5 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/ExRedPill
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/exredpill/comments/orin1n/does_believing_in_some_red_pill_talking_points/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/ExRedPill/does-believing-in-some-red-pill-talking-points.795190 https://theredarchive.com/post/795190

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