Christianity and Outcome Independence

CaptJohnLukeDiscard · 2017-03-27T15:47:52+00:00

Christian here. Very new to RP but I've been giving this an enormous amount of thought over the past few weeks. Here's where I'm at right now.

Christianity right now is INFUSED with feminist propaganda. I highly encourage any Christians here to read AoM's series on the feminizing of western Christianity. http://www.artofmanliness.com/2016/08/22/the-feminization-of-christianity/

The western Church is caught in a negative feedback cycle in which most of the attendees are women so they cater to women which attracts more women and less men so they cater to women which attracts... you get the point. Scripture, on the other hand, is full of robust and manly men who were OI in the sense that they had a mission and they sacrificed everything to attain the goal. They let nothing get in the way. I'm talking both OT and NT.

Proverbs talks about how fools go on and on yet the wise hold their words and guard their own hearts against everything / everyone else. Sounds like STFU to me.

Ecclesiastes talks about simplifying life in the pursuit of 'work hard then eat, drink, and be merry.' In modern lingo, don't sweat the small stuff. Sound likes OI to me.

Paul is unequivocally clear on the fact that the man is the head of his home and the wife is to submit to him. This is not a master slave relationship but instead the husband is supposed to lead and care for his wife while the wife is supposed to support and respect her husband. That sounds an awful lot like a Captain / First Officer arrangement to me.

Again, I’m still working my way through this mentally but I see a ton of overlap between Christianity and MRP. Yes, there are core ideas to RP such as sexual success strategies that don’t jive with the Christian notion of a godly husband. However, the primary tenet of MRP appears to be “don’t focus on changing her, make yourself better and the rest will follow.” That is 100% a Christian notion (‘don’t pluck the splinter out of your neighbor’s eye when you have a log in your own’) with the small exception that Scripture treats divorce as more of a ‘final option only’ issue.

shamgar-77 · 2017-03-28T04:49:29+00:00

I have not read Ortberg’s book, but I have read nearly everything published by Dallas Willard several times and listened to many recordings of his teachings. He is in my estimation the most important Christian author of our time. He was a long time philosophy professor at USC, but I have encountered very few authors who could explain matters of faith as profoundly as him.

Willard’s teachings on the true nature of the gospel and the spiritual disciplines ripped my mind apart and changed my life. I highly recommend “The Divine Conspiracy,” “The Spirit of the Disciplines,” and “Renovation of the Heart.”

As a Christian the biggest divide between my faith and red pill philosophy is that it approaches men and women purely from the perspective of the flesh. As Willard and many others like Kierkegaard have argued, Protestant Christianity threw out discipline and sanctification in its reaction against Roman Catholicism. The spiritual disciplines that were used by Christians for centuries to be transformed into Christlikeness fell away. So now, for the most part, Western Protestants are little more than infants in regards to Christian maturity and power.\

Spiritual disciplines are for the spirit as lifting is for the body. In my practice of various disciplines I have experienced holiness and the presence of God in ways I had only read about in the spiritual classics by the likes of Brother Lawrence, Thomas a Kempis, and Ignatius. For example, I experienced what is referred to as ecstasy or infused contemplation for nearly a year. In that state it was not I who lived, but Christ lived through me (Gal 2:20). The Lord’s joy was often so overwhelming that my coworkers suspected that I was drunk or high. These kinds of experiences were once widely known in the church, but today I even feel embarrassed talking about it.

At various times in my walk with the Lord he has shown me the future. Those things came to pass, and always apart from my direct effort. This has led me to develop a very high view of the classical notion of Providence, which is quite out of fashion in our day. Knowing and trusting that, despite appearances to the contrary, God is in control and has a plan for your life allows one to live in a manner that frees one from being overly invested in outcomes.

Before I found the red pill philosophy I noticed that the more I matured spiritually and walked by faith the more attractive I became to women. The red pill has helped me understand a bit, from a naturalistic perspective, why that was happening. Walking by faith is a mission. My joy/peace in the Lord probably looked like confidence. The fact that I was not trying to score with them might have made me appear like I was demonstrating higher value. I could go on, and others have posted some great parallels between red pill theory and Christianity.

The Church could really benefit from a masculine movement like the red pill, but from within a Biblical and spiritual frame.

WisdomTangoFoxtrot · 2017-03-27T15:08:43+00:00

Christianity at it's core is outcome independence. The most severe of outcomes...death...is taken off the table.

You're free.

1 Corinithians 7 if you read it unplugged and redpill, it has some serious OI wisdom.

"You were bought at a price; do not become slaves of human beings."

"Now about virgins: I have no command from the Lord, but I give a judgment as one who by the Lord’s mercy is trustworthy. 26 Because of the present crisis, I think that it is good for a man to remain as he is. 27 Are you pledged to a woman? Do not seek to be released. Are you free from such a commitment? Do not look for a wife. 28 But if you do marry, you have not sinned; and if a virgin marries, she has not sinned. But those who marry will face many troubles in this life, and I want to spare you this.

29 What I mean, brothers and sisters, is that the time is short. From now on those who have wives should live as if they do not; 30 those who mourn, as if they did not; those who are happy, as if they were not; those who buy something, as if it were not theirs to keep; 31 those who use the things of the world, as if not engrossed in them. For this world in its present form is passing away."

Another good resource is Dalrock. He has some good blog entries regarding the 4 types of loves. And if you start reading up/googling on soulmates and Christianity you'll get closer to a Christian understanding of outcome independence regarding helpmeets, which I think is what you are getting at. Christianity does not buy into the "happily ever after, Disney trope" either. I've found that redpill and Christianity are largely compatible. Analyse amorally, but act ethically.

To state the obvious, I do not recommend going Bible thumping redpill rambo on your wife. I started really reading for myself and I was beyond pissed and I stepped on this landmine. I made her the enemy instead of understanding what was really going on- Fem-centric philosophy has deeply invaded Christianity and I didn't do any real analytical and evaluative studying.

Now, I simply STFU or use it to A&A in Christian speak to her.

ReddJive · 2017-03-27T14:28:56+00:00

Never read that book, but I have since sloughed off my Christian thoughts. I am not sure yet where that path will lead.

you do you

A much used saying here. really what it means is you follow your path and continue to improve. Those in your life will come along for the ride, adapt to the you that you are trying to be....

or they won't and will move on.

Best said by /u/UltimateCad,

I am a ship at sea. I have course and direction. The women in my life are like the barnacles. They come and go. Some stay longer then others.

Scurvemuch · 2017-03-27T15:16:21+00:00

Sure, I'd probably be having more sex and better sex if I wasn't a Christian

how so? What are your beliefs here? what is off limits? I sense a disturbed, guilty thought process.

GargantuaBlarg29 · 2017-03-27T14:27:48+00:00

I'm not religious in any sense; but still interesting as there always seems to be that battle between where I want to be, where I am now, do I want to do the work to get there, and AM I doing the work to get there.

A lot of the time there's a resistance to doing the work to get where I want to go, but when I get there I am grateful I did the work. The lost time comes from the time spent going from "I don't want to do the work" to "Well we're doing it anyway because you know you'll like the result". That's wasted time. The difference between the life I could be living and the life I have exists only because of that wasted time.

RedPillCatholic · 2017-03-28T20:09:23+00:00

You don't need to go any further than Adam & Eve to find the beginning of our loss of masculinity.

God gave Adam one job: take care of everything and protect it. He gave Adam one rule: don't eat from that one tree. THEN He created Eve as Adam's helpmeet. Adam was RIGHT THERE when Satan tempted Eve and Adam was the typical drunk captain: he stood by and not only did nothing, he let EVE lead him to his own destruction! Then when God caught him, Adam tried to DEER his way out of the situation. And what did God tell Eve? " you will want to control your husband, but he shall have dominion over you." ‭‭(Genesis‬ ‭3:16)‬ And to Adam: "Because you listened to your wife and ate from the tree about which I commanded you, You shall not eat from it, Cursed is the ground because of you! In toil you shall eat its yield all the days of your life.” ‭‭(Genesis‬ ‭3:17, emphasis added.)

Eve gave Adam the first fitness shit test. Adam failed. And the Bible is full of stories of other men who were drunk captains from then on.

And why did Satan temp Eve? Why did he not try to temp Adam? Because Satan knew that Eve was a copy of the original, and not as strong. He also knew that Adam was so gaga for Eve that he'd do anything to make her haaaaaapy. And guess what, gents? It's the same play today!

This is why I think RP and Christianity are 100% compatible: because RP is Truth, and BP is nothing but Satan's lies. Hypergamy is supposed to be our motivator to be the men God created us to be, and to take charge of that we're given charge over.

RP_SuitScholar · 2017-03-27T14:56:56+00:00

I think it muddies the waters to bring religion into the RP conversation. RP is founded on an understanding of evolutionary sexual strategy (read "The Red Queen") and the subsequent psychological and sociological implications of that evolution. The "self-improvement" component of RP is ancillary to this foundational truth: that at its core RP is about sexual strategy. Now with that said, I get downvoted into oblivion whenever I try to remind people of this, but that's okay I don't care because it's the truth whether people want to believe it or not. I am also aware that RP has itself evolved into becoming a self-improvement centered conversation and that for the majority of men that seems to be what they get out of it.
To OP's point, this book might have some benefit for a RP aware man trying to amalgamate his Christian worldview with his RP awareness, but I suspect there will always be points of divergence between the two paradigms. At that point of divergence, a good Christian is going to have to decide if he fully embraces the RP when the good book gives him a different "truth".

The_Litz · 2017-03-27T15:14:31+00:00

Sure, I'd probably be having more sex and better sex if I wasn't a Christian

I don't agree with you. Christianity does not exclude you from great sex.

screechhater · 2017-03-27T16:47:42+00:00

When you read the sidebar and it starts to click, you quickly realize it's ok to want sex and although most of us have had nice guy behavior engrained to get it, anger floats to the top and clouds our judgement along with moral fortitude.

Happiness, frame, OI, abundance is true happiness once we start to act non verba, own our Shit and lead in the home and in our life. Better sex is there between the MRP and his SO via trust. What better way to exhibit trust than to truly have your Shit together and not be reliant on her for your happiness ??

Are you attractive ?? Do you still excite her ?? Or, have you sought comfort of the couch ? Then only to pull her off a shelf fir sex ?

Your religion ahould not stand in the way of MRP and MRP should not stand in the way of your religious doctrine. Being OI and of abundance mentality, you place your fate in your hands. Which is what she signed on for. A partner that can give when she is ready for receptive input. But she cannot do this if you have no frame, or abundance.

Go on the web and look for Doctor Carol Ministries advice for a real eye opener of what refusers of sex and gate keepers are doing to their spouse. Some of it is about pastors She does not give a good solution though. MRP does

bogeyd6 · 2017-03-28T01:40:12+00:00

Thanks for adhering to the guidelines of posting media.

TexasThomas · 2017-03-30T20:13:51+00:00

We're talking origins; the origins of physical laws are either chance-based or intelligence based. Of course the output/consequences of Said physical laws are not chance based.

TexasThomas · 2017-04-04T13:26:18+00:00

Show me the peer reviewed paper showing that any particular mutation adds information or a new, novel body part.

TexasThomas · 2017-04-04T14:07:24+00:00

Oh my. As if you have a replicator. They're still looking for it. And you can't have a cell without a membrane. All you've got is a few isolated nucleotides. And? And what about the thousands of cellular machines that make functionality possible? A cell cannot be functional and be what you need unless it can consume/use nutrients, expel waste and replicate. It needs hardware for that. So where is it? You don't know. No mutations bring about this stuff. See the problem here you are on the wrong side of the truth and this stuff you're presenting doesn't fool me like it might others.

TexasThomas · 2017-04-04T15:18:32+00:00

Uh where are those mutations? Paper please. And why did I watch that? Talk about just-so stories. Tell me, which small, isolated part of the flagellum evolved first?

TexasThomas · 2017-04-04T16:04:26+00:00

Clearly you didn't understand the challenge. I didn't asked how the ribosome evolved...as in some theoretical model. I asked for the mutations responsible. Clearly you are into science and know more than I do but clearly you are without example. And the long term lenski thing was repeated more recently and what he said took some 60,000 generations actually took other researchers 12 generations when they repeated the experiment. Clearly not accomplished by random mutations.

TexasThomas · 2017-04-04T18:08:17+00:00

I asked for a new structure to the phenotype. I can't argue chemicals. But I can argue organismal evolution. Ion channels are not phenotypic structures, pieces of anatomy

TexasThomas · 2017-04-04T19:06:57+00:00

Just going on what the researcher himself said. "Special mechanism" is his term, which at other times he suggests the trait is pre-existing and is a result plasmids transferring g it. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC525574/

0kool74 · 2017-03-28T13:14:55+00:00

Organized religion has been the single most destructive force to Christianity since Christ died on the cross. You got a book.....and ONE BOOK ONLY.....that lays out what you are supposed to do, think etc. etc. if you are a follower of Christ. Thanks to man, now you have scores of religious sects that say you can't do this if you're a Baptist, or you have to do that if you're a Church of God. Not only did man take a serious SHIT on Christianity, but man has also allowed it to be totally perverted and subverted to assuage the whims of feminism and the Feminine Imperative.

I left the church a few years ago, and have no desire whatsoever to ever step foot back inside one. If I wanted Sunday morning country club people....with their holier than thou attitudes and better than others treatment of people, then I'd go to a.....yep, you guessed it.....country club!

ho-li-fuk · 2017-03-28T10:31:08+00:00

My quick reply to religion followers:

The largest blue pilled fantasy is the one where you believe there is a god.The farther away you stay from organized sky daddy followers, the more rational you will become.

Downvote away boys.

Don't forget to tithe!

TexasThomas · 2017-03-30T19:25:22+00:00

Maybe you prefer the term horse shit.

FRedington · 2017-03-27T16:40:21+00:00

I know that MRP is amoral at it's core.

Your presumption that MRP is amoral is false.
It is christianity that is false.

Title	Christianity and Outcome Independence
Author	redwall92
Upvotes	29
Comments	166
Date	March 27, 2017 1:54 PM UTC (9 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MarriedRedPill
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/marriedredpill/comments/61s9l2/christianity_and_outcome_independence/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MarriedRedPill/christianity-and-outcome-independence.198955 https://theredarchive.com/post/198955

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