Feminism is changing

Punder_man · 2023-04-03T15:02:03+00:00

The problem here with the idea of "Feminism is about equality" is that feminism and feminists have had YEARS to prove this..
And have failed time and time again.

When feminists pushed the UN to have Female Circumcision relabeled as Female Genital Mutilation (FGM) and to have it outlawed they had the perfect opportunity to prove to the world that "Feminism is for men too!" because instead they could have asked the UN to define circumcision (both boys / men and girls / women) as Genital Mutilation and have it outlawed..

But did they do that?

I think we all know the answer there...

Or when feminists created and pushed for the uptake of the Duluth Model of Domestic Violence. A model which was based upon 'feelings' and 'assumptions' rather than facts or evidence. A model which assumes that in ALL cases of domestic violence involving a man and a woman the man is ALWAYS the aggressor and the woman is ALWAYS the victim.

This model alone has all but erased male victims of domestic violence from the statistics which in turn allows them to point to the statistics and say "See! Domestic violence is an issue that affects women!!"

I'm not going to say that women were 'never' oppressed or that women don't have issues today which need to be looked at (Roe V Wade) for example.

But the claim of "Feminism is about equality!" or "Feminism is for men too" is a scapegoat used to placate the masses while feminism / feminist organizations implement laws, rules, or systems which benefit women or harm men.

The National Organization for Women (NOW) a feminist organization is constantly fighting against reforms in family courts to make 50/50 shared custody the norm
Does that sound like the actions of a movement that claims "Men and women should be equal" to you?

Once again.. I think we all know the answer there...

ElisaSKy · 2023-04-03T12:31:20+00:00

"Feminism is supposed to mean equality between the sexes"

And the best way to do that is to send bomb threats to the woman whom opened the first DV shelter, and picketing her when she tries to speak publicly for saying women are equally violent towards their partners as men are.

And to start a blacklisting and intimidation campaign against any researchers finding parity in perpetration of violence and rape.

Because men and women will only be equal when all available evidence that men and women are roughly equally violent and prone to committing sexual assault will be successfully suppressed, and anyone believing what the evidence of equal violent and sexually predatory tendencies tells them will be suitably dealt with.

That make sense.

And just in case I haven't been laying it on thick enough, that was sarcasm. Next paragraph, I will say what I really mean, with no sarcasm whatsoever:

Selectively amplifying and suppressing evidence of violent tendencies isn't how an egalitarian movement operates. It's how a supremacist and/or genocidal movement operates. It's what the KKK does to blacks. It's what the nazis did to jews. It's what feminism does, and has always done to men.

AvailableCandidate89 · 2023-04-03T14:50:57+00:00

Feminism is supposed to mean equality between the sexes ... if the true nature of feminism was still present than I truly do believe yall would be feminists to

ugh, another no true scotsman wrapped up in "that's not what feminism was supposed to be about!" (yes, it was)

Lazy response #1: feminism was never about equality, from the very beginning

And lazy response #2 is a copypasta from Karen Straughan in response to "those aren't real feminists/feminism":

So what you're saying is that you, a commenter using a username on an internet forum are the true feminist, and the feminists actually responsible for changing the laws, writing the academic theory, teaching the courses, influencing the public policies, and the massive, well-funded feminist organizations with thousands and thousands of members all of whom call themselves feminists... they are not "real feminists".

That's not just "no true Scotsman". That's delusional self deception.

Listen, if you want to call yourself a feminist, I don't care. I've been investigating feminism for more than 9 years now, and people like you used to piss me off, because to my mind all you were doing was providing cover and ballast for the powerful political and academic feminists you claim are just jerks. And believe me, they ARE jerks. If you knew half of what I know about the things they've done under the banner of feminism, maybe you'd stop calling yourself one.

But I want you to know. You don't matter. You're not the director of the Feminist Majority Foundation and editor of Ms. Magazine, Katherine Spillar, who said of domestic violence: "Well, that's just a clean-up word for wife-beating," and went on to add that regarding male victims of dating violence, "we know it's not girls beating up boys, it's boys beating up girls."

You're not Jan Reimer, former mayor of Edmonton and long-time head of Alberta's Network of Women's Shelters, who just a few years ago refused to appear on a TV program discussing male victims of domestic violence, because for her to even show up and discuss it would lend legitimacy to the idea that they exist.

You're not Mary P Koss, who describes male victims of female rapists in her academic papers as being not rape victims because they were "ambivalent about their sexual desires" (if you don't know what that means, it's that they actually wanted it), and then went on to define them out of the definition of rape in the CDC's research because it's inappropriate to consider what happened to them rape.

You're not the National Organization for Women, and its associated legal foundations, who lobbied to replace the gender neutral federal Family Violence Prevention and Services Act of 1984 with the obscenely gendered Violence Against Women Act of 1994. The passing of that law cut male victims out of support services and legal assistance in more than 60 passages, just because they were male.

You're not the Florida chapter of the NOW, who successfully lobbied to have Governor Rick Scott veto not one, but two alimony reform bills in the last ten years, bills that had passed both houses with overwhelming bipartisan support, and were supported by more than 70% of the electorate.

You're not the feminist group in Maryland who convinced every female member of the House on both sides of the aisle to walk off the floor when a shared parenting bill came up for a vote, meaning the quorum could not be met and the bill died then and there.

You're not the feminists in Canada agitating to remove sexual assault from the normal criminal courts, into quasi-criminal courts of equity where the burden of proof would be lowered, the defendant could be compelled to testify, discovery would go both ways, and defendants would not be entitled to a public defender.

You're not Professor Elizabeth Sheehy, who wrote a book advocating that women not only have the right to murder their husbands without fear of prosecution if they make a claim of abuse, but that they have the moral responsibility to murder their husbands.

You're not the feminist legal scholars and advocates who successfully changed rape laws such that a woman's history of making multiple false allegations of rape can be excluded from evidence at trial because it's "part of her sexual history."

You're not the feminists who splattered the media with the false claim that putting your penis in a passed-out woman's mouth is "not a crime" in Oklahoma, because the prosecutor was incompetent and charged the defendant under an inappropriate statute (forcible sodomy) and the higher court refused to expand the definition of that statute beyond its intended scope when there was already a perfectly good one (sexual battery) already there. You're not the idiot feminists lying to the public and potentially putting women in Oklahoma at risk by telling potential offenders there's a "legal" way to rape them.

And you're none of the hundreds or thousands of feminist scholars, writers, thinkers, researchers, teachers and philosophers who constructed and propagate the body of bunkum theories upon which all of these atrocities are based.

You're the true feminist. Some random person on the internet.

Sininenn · 2023-04-03T12:28:44+00:00

Feminism has always been rotten.

Just read the declaration of sentimets.

In a world where men are forced to work in coal mines all day, and are sent to war to die in millions, a couple of women feel like being at home is oppression...

Zhi-ren · 2023-04-03T12:27:35+00:00

Feminism was never about equality of the sexes. It was always about female empowerment over men. Don't fool yourself. True equality is Egalitarianism and that I support. The rest is jargon made to lift women beyond men.

TrilIias · 2023-04-03T12:36:13+00:00

I think most people who would call themselves feminists are just normal people who don't hate men and genuinely want equality. They generally think women are or at least were oppressed, which I still disagree with, but these normal people aren't really the feminists I have a problem with.

Yes, there are also radical blue haired politically lesbian feminists who are just plain obnoxious, but they also don't have much power within feminism or in society more broadly. These are also not the feminists I really take issue with, I mean every political movement has its extremists, and I generally don't think it's fair to judge movements only on the radicals.

My problem with feminists is the ones who have institutional power, the ones in academia, corporations, in political office, the ones in the media and the ones running feminist organizations that influence law and policy. These are the people with power, the people who make feminism relevant, and they are generally misandrists who do not support equality.

Feminism was never about equality, even going back to Seneca Falls. It was always about falsely accusing men of being evil oppressors, a label men have never deserved. Not now, not ever.

Yozora1337 · 2023-04-03T17:31:45+00:00

Men and woman will be equal when the average man has access to the same frequent casual sex opportunity that average women have.

Women are not attracted to "equal" men.

GltyUntlPrvnInncnt · 2023-04-03T15:15:21+00:00

For me it's very plain and simple. Feminism in all its forms is an anti-male, female supremacy movement, and always has been. It is detrimental to well-being of men and boys. Therefore any sane person should hate it with burning passion.

Nobleone11 · 2023-04-03T23:48:01+00:00

you want society to see more than just ur income body type and dick size right?

It would also help immeasurably if society would stop putting women on a pedestal, assuming they're always wonderful by virtue of what's between their legs, and come down hard on female abusers and bullies of every age, race, color and creed.

For too long, I'm having to tolerate this toxic form of "Female Empowerment" in every facet of life where a woman can commit heinous acts against a man and hide behind their gender, never facing the consequences men receive when they step way over the line.

My question is do y’all hate feminism or the way feminism is portrayed now?

Yes, I hate feminism. ALL of it. Including the supposed enlightened earlier waves people proclaim were about equality when they weren't.

Look up "The Declaration of Sentiments" and tell me what kind of altruistic ideology declares ALL men as the obstacle to women's emancipation?

Don’t get me wrong, the blue haired girls and the podcast women’s idea of feminism has encompassed society but their interpretations of feminism aren’t the same as everyone else’s, right?

No, they're just following the basic tenants of feminism, most prominent being that women suffer under Patriarchy, which privileges all men over them.

Feminism is supposed to mean equality between the sexes (obviously not physically but not much can be done about that).

It doesn't.

Again, "Declaration of Sentiments".

Furthermore, look up what they did to Erin Prizzy.

Look up Mary K. Ross, feminist researcher, erasing male victims of female rapists from statistics.

There's also N.O.W. that fought against Shared Parenting, believing it would allow abusive fathers easier access to their children.

The Duluth Model of Domestic Violence, conceived by a feminist, that labels men as the primary abuser in a domestic violence situation and required to be arrested is another example. A whole lot of female perpetrators ignored thanks to that.

Feminists groups in India pressuring their government to keep Rape Laws Gender Specific. You have to feel for male victims over there.

if the true nature of feminism was still present than I truly do believe yall would be feminists to.

The true nature of feminism is right there in "The Declaration Of Sentiments" and has informed the ideologies approach since its inception.

It’d mean women would be convicted of their sex crimes

Mary K. Ross did serious damage in that arena. Strike One.

false accusations

Too bad Feminism believes the percentage is too low to warrant addressing. Strike Two.

it’d mean mom states would be dissolved, it’d mean divorce rules would change drastically

N.O.W. put an end to that by fighting against Shared Parenting. Strike Three.

Feminism is OUT!

So again do you hate feminism or do you hate todays idea of feminism?

Feminism, period.

AdIllustrious6191 · 2023-04-03T15:25:01+00:00

Let's be clear -- feminism is revenge. Feminists want to subject men to the supposed wrongs that women have endured. They want men at home taking care of the kids, doing all the domestic work, and it's happening already. What do you think uneducated men who aren't in the workforce will end up doing? Google Female Led Relationships and you'll see what I mean.

Tight_Pomegranate404 · 2023-04-04T01:59:01+00:00

Feminism isn’t “portrayed”. It’s a hate group.

They have engaged in acts of terrorism for the last ten years with absolutely no restraint. No matter what lie they tell, and everything they say is a lie, it is always about hatred.

Avoid them at all costs. They’re indoctrinated and their hate dogma is designed to appeal to the worst women.

And those women use that dogma as a holy religious divine justification for their hatred.

Don’t live in fantasy land. Stay away from them.

IceCorrect · 2023-04-03T13:49:02+00:00

Those feminist who call those crazy lunatics "not real feminist" never call them out in real life, why? Beacuse they are afraid of them or they enjoy all benefits and special privilages they give to them.

Feminism having problem with men rights just prove for what they are after.

Ive never met single feminist who would care for men, they only pretend to care to gain even more than men they "stand for"

aerial_coitus · 2023-04-03T12:59:59+00:00

feminism is changing

click bait

SouthernSeeker · 2023-04-03T16:01:20+00:00

There's nothing in modern Feminism that wasn't present at Seneca falls- all that's changed is the openness with which the hatred and insanity is expressed.

Well, no, that's not entirely true; there were far more legitimate complaints back then, as well, but since all of those battles have since been won, all that's left is the bigotry and whining.

ZekalMacabre · 2023-04-03T16:35:13+00:00

Feminism is the problem, it has always been the problem. From day one.

The premise behind all feminism is "men bad, women good".

Their actions and lack of actions show this to hold firmly true.

Feminism is a hate cult and I will never, ever support a hate cult. That's why I am an MRA. We are fighting for equality, unlike feminism.

GivesStellarAdvice · 2023-04-03T17:24:29+00:00

If you believe all genders should be treated equally (or as equally as possible given biological limitations), then you're a men's rights advocate. That's exactly what MRAs are working towards.

Feminists play lip service to that idea, but have no actual interest in gender equality. They want equality in areas where men currently have advantages and want to maintain inequality in areas where women currently have advantages.

And if you pin them down, they'll actually admit to that. No feminist genuinely cares that there aren't more women plumbers or electrical line workers. They might be fine with women doing those professions and don't think they should be excluded from those professions, but getting more women into those professions isn't an actual concern of feminists.

Oxoperplexed · 2023-04-03T17:29:33+00:00

If feminism is about equality, then name needs to change, because it’s sexist.

Lucr3tius · 2023-04-03T17:30:48+00:00

Feminism is supposed to mean equality between the sexes (obviously not physically but not much can be done about that). if the true nature of feminism was still present than I truly do believe yall would be feminists to.

We don't "hate feminism" it's just an ideology based on a false premise, and is thus subsequently disastrously inaccurate and harmful in all of its downstream conclusions. Men and women are not equal. Women have never been substantively oppressed.

Wylanderuk · 2023-04-03T22:54:39+00:00

I hate feminism, its been based on bullshit from day one. Its always been give me the rights, but hold the responsibilities...

Top-Swimmer-7918 · 2023-04-03T17:37:19+00:00

Yes it got worse.

Fuzzy_Department2799 · 2023-04-03T13:06:01+00:00

Most women who call themselves feminists don't seem to understand their entire movement has been taken over by the radical blue hairs and they are the one's running the show. They are the ones who represent all feminists now. Until the sane women take back control of their movement you are all lumped in with them and cant be trusted. If a woman tells me she is a feminist that is a huge red flag for me.

househubbyintraining · 2023-04-03T13:10:22+00:00

Feminism is something worth hating and the existence of the MRM is legitimate. 1st wave feminist was wonen's rights, that's what MRAs are not against, as by the statement we frequentky spit "women's rights doesn't equal feminism" "feminism doesn't equal women". Though there are bad things with 1st wave feminism, it was majority good.

Women's liberation is the entirety of modern day feminism (2nd, 3rd, 4th wave feminism), and this is the part that all MRAs I think hate, because of the betrayal aspect, which I believe is a major factor to a lot of ex-feminist MRAs. Men had men's liberation, and wonen had women's liberation. The thing is is that patriarchal oppression theory and subsequently male privilege theory, and then after that intersectionality. All brought about a culture in gender discourse that ampunts to the familiar 'know you place in society' and 'you aren't fighting the patriarchy like I would like you too, therefore your movement is useless' and 'men's liberation is a waste of time, as they address none of their problems and talk about their feelings' Then comes rad male feminist who yanked the men's liberation movement (it's own movement seperate from feminism) into a subbranch of the women's movement disgustingly called 'pro-feminism'. It being called 'pro-feminism' and 'feminism' is because male feminist were not allowed, not wanted, and hated by feminist, and this you can still see today somewhat with the ways they talk about MensLib.

All that is the death of men's liberation and the birth of men's rights. And this is just the surface, there's a good amount of shit feminist (and I'm saying feminist not feminism) have done to legitametly harm men and support female abusers, whilst spouting psychotic genocidal language.

Yeah, we hate feminist, not feminism, we hate modern feminism, but I personally don't hate modern feminist, most are just annoying tards who need to educate themselves.

Za__guy · 2023-04-03T14:13:19+00:00

For me it's whatever after the first wave of feminism

I mean every single right women take they didn't own was taking from our backs or even meat

Newton said: " rights can't be created our destroyed but transfare from men to women"

hendrixski · 2023-04-04T11:48:33+00:00

Some of us support parts of feminism, it's a diverse group here. Me in particular I support intersectional feminism but not radical feminism.

TBH, I think what most people object to here is RADICAL feminism and would not object to most of what normal feminism stands for. But every group gets mischaracterized by their most extreme members.

If you saw a group say phrases like "kill all women" you would hate that whole group, too. You would not look into whether it's a small subset or if it's the whole group. So what happened here is people saw "men are trash" and "kill all men" and other supremacist statements like that and assumed "all of those people are rotten".

Hooded_Eyes · 2023-04-03T12:47:31+00:00

I've heard modern feminism described as a mission to " catch up" to balance out the thousands of years of pain, suffering and oppression every man put on every woman over the course of history.

Oxoperplexed · 2023-04-03T17:37:15+00:00

OP posts some buzz are hypothetical along the lines of “ If sharks were bunnies, would you still be afraid of them? No? See, sharks are nice!!!”

octaviostyle · 2023-04-03T18:50:59+00:00

Feminism is a luxury and stupid ideology women have. Take, for example, in Ukraine, all women were able to leave the country while all men 18 to 65 had to stay and get slaughtered by the Russians. In the USA, 1.9% of front-line infantry are women, and those are support roles, not actual front-line being shot at and killed while walking down the street or into a home. Feminism goes out the door when times get tough, and we revert to our natural roles. Men die, men provide, men take care of women. Women nurture. Cook, and maintain a household. You don't see women picketing construction sites demanding they hire more women as brick layer, roofers, or ditch diggers. Feminism is a convenient term thrown around for woke ass women to gain privileges they haven't earned nor deserve.

EricAllonde · 2023-04-03T23:22:52+00:00

Feminism is the biggest obstacle to true gender equality today.

Thus supporting gender equality requires that you be an antifeminist.

odoof12 · 2023-04-04T02:28:00+00:00

im not against equality, gender roles are stupid and should be abolished, my gf currently is more dom im happy about that.

my issue is how men are treated, we run the entire damn earth yet are treated like sticky plastic. men are 40% of rape victims, 75% of homeless, 66% of suicides. we are called ugly, rapists, abusers.

there are millennia of social institutions dedicated to oppressing men and symbolically (and sometimes literally) castrating us as you would a wild horse. because its profitable the reason masculinity is pushed so heavily is because its profitable you brainwash a bunch of boys into thinking that working for a woman is what will make them happy and it never does. but in that timer they make thousands of dollars of unpaid labor. theres nothing that helps men if a man is raped especcially by a woman no ones coming to save him it doesnt fucking happen.

if feminism would solve that, id be a feminist point blank no questions.

but feminism currently and never has done that its mostly just enflamed the issues men face.

we had more domestic violence mens shelters in the 2010s than now despite knowing more about it and that's solely thanks to feminism.

also I don't buy the whole women are physically weaker shit, on a purely evolutionary lense humans are weak to begin with. also women are less likely to commit behaviors that lead to strength. (working outside, constantly doing small tasks for your female friends and family, sports, eating bigger meals, etc) I've seen women who actually work there doesn't seem to be a hang up. my local city hires hella female workers for their outdoor projects and I've watched them hang up powerlines fix roads and carry 50 pound bags of cement.

UnconventionalXY · 2023-04-04T03:46:24+00:00

Egalitarianism is about equality: feminism wasn't needed to pursue egalitarianism, but it was necessary to pursue womens advantage. It's all in the name, regardless of splutterings to the contrary.

Men and women can never be equal except in very fundamental ways related to outcome as they are so intrinsicly different and ultimately incompatible: nature has to drug men and women to stay together long enough for procreation to be successful; that says volumes to me about how compatible and equal men and women normally are, but its a side effect of the very biology of sexual reproduction for a physically weak species, but which has strength in intelligence and numbers.

Look at the cats in general: females are fairly equal to males in taking care of themselves as apex predators and the two only come together briefly to mate, otherwise leading solitary lives. Females in this species actually have the harder job: looking after themselves as well as offspring, not to mention a painful ovulation trigger mechanism combined with a surrender reflex; they truly are oppressed by their biology.

Throning · 2023-04-04T03:49:40+00:00

So again do you hate feminism or do you hate todays idea of feminism?

First, you say this like there is only hate to have toward either 'historic' feminism, or 'modern' feminism. It assumes I'm so heavily invested to feel so strongly about feminism.

Indifference would be a better word for it. I don't hate it, that's too much work and I have better things to do with my time and attention. I just don't care about it.

This doesn't mean ignorance - I've read enough articles (both for and against), I've read the original Declaration of Sentiments from 1848 (the basis of pretty much all of feminism), and enough other stuff from both sides.

It's perhaps best to highlight this by example. Warren Farrell was a man who identified with and fought for Feminism back in the 70's. But by his own words in Cassie Jaye's "The Red Pill" documentary, he realized that any time he brought up issues that uniquely or disproportionately affect men, his feminist colleagues would silence him, shame him, or otherwise redirect the concern (and the donations/charity/money) to women's issues. After long enough of having his own voice ignored, he abandoned Feminism - because it wasn't making good on it's claim that "it helps men too!", because no matter how much he supported them, he received none in kind.

It loops back around to the indifference and I simply don't care about feminism. Why should I care about feminism, when they've made it abundantly clear for the last 50+ years, that they do not care about me or men in general?

Particularly with the Karen Straughan quote another person copy pasta'd - Why should I care about feminism, when their loudest and most prominent leadership and members, have gone out of their way to express just how little they care about me or men in general?

What about it as a movement have they done to actually earn my support? Because the actual answer as I see it is that they've done more to disadvantage me and men in general, and this pretty firmly debunks and denounces their claim of being a movement of equality - they aren't - they're a movement of supremacy of women over men.

UnconventionalXY · 2023-04-04T03:57:52+00:00

Whilst feminism remains only about rights then it is a flawed movement as rights must always be matched with responsibilities. In other words, rights can't exist in isolation as they tend to conflict with other rights. Rights aren't the absolutes people make them out to be.

nokappa1 · 2023-04-04T05:50:47+00:00

My question is do y’all hate feminism or the way feminism is portrayed now?

The issue here is that people are going to act in preserving their own (and by extension their group's) self interests.

Women are preserving their own self interests, by wanting to have their cake and eat it. (i.e. promiscuous younger days and rely on men financially when they start losing their charm, freedom of fucking around while claiming alimony + CS from their ex-spouse).

It's understandable that people want to protect their own self interests. I'm not going into whether what's done is correct or not, but that makes it impossible for:

Feminism is supposed to mean equality between the sexes

This to be true.

if the true nature of feminism was still present

The true nature of feminism has been hypocrisy, and double standards. We can speak again when women truly start abolishing the perception that they are vulnerable, should be protected, and hold themselves to the same standard as they hold men.

The only major difference in the earlier waves of feminism was that they knew not to cross the men they were reliant on. Definitely not the case of feminism now.

Jacklshere · 2023-04-04T08:07:03+00:00

A year old account with barely any posts or comments. Obvious troll.

Lightning77Plus · 2023-04-04T10:04:55+00:00

You really wanna see if feminism is about equality? Try being a woman and disagreeing with the collective opinion. See how quickly they stick up for you.

Title	Feminism is changing
Author	Wyvernslayersbitch
Upvotes	0
Comments	100
Date	April 3, 2023 12:21 PM UTC (3 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/12aipqx/feminism_is_changing/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/feminism-is-changing.1207015 https://theredarchive.com/post/1207015

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