On Teaching Men Not To Rape

NeuroticIntrovert · 2012-12-06T20:40:08+00:00

You have pointed out an hypocrisy. You're being told by feminists(?) that rapists, not their victims, are responsible for rape. You're also being told, by mainstream society, that mugging victims are responsible for their muggings.

The thing is - and if my interpretation of your experience is wrong, please say so - these messages are coming from two different sources. If the same people putting up the anti-rape posters start telling you you're responsible for making sure you aren't mugged, then they're hypocrites. Even then, they should probably resolve that hypocrisy by changing their minds about muggings, rather than changing their minds about rapes.

I think the reason 'teach people not to murder' isn't being said, but 'teach people not to rape' is being said, is that people address the issues that they, personally, are worried about. This isn't just feminists, or MRAs, or gender-literate people; this is humanity. The people at your campus are more worried about rape than murder or muggings. There are many opinions on how legitimate that feeling is.

Umedark · 2012-12-06T21:29:06+00:00

I'm from Abbotsford, and for three years it was the murders capital of Canada. We had police officers come in to the High schools telling kids not to sell drugs (as most of the murders were gang related) they were not telling them "don't to kill rival drug dealers" witch is what the motive was.

2012-12-06T22:06:12+00:00

It annoys me that the "don't go down dark alleys" example is used. The people who put this poster together would know that such rapes, by strangers in hostile situation, are a slim minority.They use this example because it is more dramatic, and I don't think it helps their cause.

oneiorosgrip · 2012-12-07T00:23:26+00:00

Vassar College seems to disagree with the majority of campuses on the subject of personal responsibility. Ironically, part of their advice to students, taken out of the context of their whole statement (and as I understand it, this policy is the origin of that quote), has made the rounds as a standard for the determination of consent as if one must verbally ask and receive verbal confirmation before one can continue forward with even the simplest actions in an encounter.

Unlike the trend begun by feminist repetition of a singled out section of the policy, Vassar encourages students to take the initiative to speak up for themselves, with advice on slowing things down, and stopping that are clearly offered to the unwilling participant, not the pursing participant.

The consent description which states that permission must be verbally asked "every step of the way" regardless of the woman's overt behavior has been thrown at me in discussion with feminists as if it excuses their support for regret-based false allegations. That argument ignores the above quote, also from the same policy, which clearly admonishes students to communicate when they do not want activity to continue. Between those two parts of the policy is a section on nonverbal communication which describes body language as a way of determining consent. When placed in that context, the statement loses it's demanding edge, becoming an admonition that partners in a sexual encounter pay attention to each other, and that "no" (or incapacitated) overrides everything else.

Feminist cherry-picking of the section describing consent to treat as a stand-alone description of how to avoid being a rapist, while ignoring the empowering advice below it which modifies its meaning, shows a determination in the debater to embrace willful helplessness. Too often, the same feminist advocacy which demands that women be treated as being as tough, strong, and capable as men in every other situation turns around and demands that women be treated as weak, helpless, and incapable of standing up for themselves in unsure circumstances, treating them the same as being overtly forced.

ARedditorCalledQuest · 2012-12-07T02:21:33+00:00

most rapes don't happen in dark alleys, though, do they?

Jesus_marley · 2012-12-06T21:32:13+00:00

I need feminism because we teach passengers to wear their seatbelt instead of telling drivers "don't crash".

rightsbot · 2012-12-06T20:04:18+00:00

Post text automatically copied here. (Why?) (Report a problem.)

notsoinsaneguy · 2012-12-07T02:27:55+00:00

The thing is that people telling you not to have been walking in a shitty part of town are dicks. You just got mugged, you don't need to be berated for this shitty thing that happened to you. People aren't stupid, they know that by taking some actions certain consequences can be rendered less likely. Saying to someone that they shouldn't have been in such and such neighborhood after dark doesn't help anyone, and only serves to make the victim feel worse than they already do.

Also, it's worth noting that in the case of rape, rape rarely occurs because someone was in the "bad" parts of town. Rape is typically committed by someone the victim knows, so the advice would be more along the lines of "you shouldn't have trusted x person" as opposed to "you shouldn't have been in x place". The people saying "we shouldn't teach women not to go down dark alleys" are just awful at getting the point across, because women going down dark alleys aren't actually that significant a portion of the women getting raped.

2012-12-07T03:38:37+00:00

But why is it that if I get mugged, I'm told I shouldn't have been in that part of town at night, and that's alright to say, but if someone gets raped, it isn't politically correct to say that they should avoid the 'bad' parts of town?

If your friend was mugged, had all his or her money stolen, and is really upset (which is, we can both agree, still better than being raped) would you really turn around and tell him or her that s/he shouldn't have been in that part of town? Because I still think that makes you sound like an asshole, and a bad friend.

2012-12-07T00:37:45+00:00

The problem with "teaching men not to rape" is that men already know not to rape. The affect of these campaigns however is to convince women that men are likely to rape them. Women think to themselves "their wouldn't be posters unless men were somewhat likely to rape women.

This is like posting "Remember Black people, don't mug people. Don't be that Black person."

Or "Asians don't beat your children for getting a B. Don't be that Asian."

The implied message is that these practices are common when they are very rare. As is actual rape. But for political reasons the definition of rape has been expanded to include tremendous amounts of sex (ex. all sex where a women had any alcohol). And even this has not been suffixation so they just make up stats.

But this is just how politics is done. Look at the MRA threads were people are arguing that getting kicked in the balls is rape. Propaganda works. I hope one day people reject propaganda but that day has not come.

BobbyTomale · 2012-12-07T00:03:04+00:00

Yeah. It makes as much sense as "don't teach kids about stranger danger, teach adults not to kidnap!"

SCCROW · 2012-12-06T21:12:09+00:00

Women are victims, men aren't.

That's why.

According to "Feminist Theory" anyway...

JosephAmra · 2012-12-06T22:08:26+00:00

Wow..don't teach female drunk drivers not to drive drunk... Teach people to look out for her! Duh guys :p

2012-12-06T20:06:54+00:00

Yeah the second example is just making an argument against the framing of rape of women as failures to follow rules on the part of victims, its just indirect and not very clear.

"Don't go to bad parts of town" is nonsensical advice, what if they already live there, or have to go there as part of their commute or to visit friends and most rapes do not happen in that circumstance anyway, some gormless woman just heading off the worst part of town for no reason at all and being stranger raped ... feminists themselves have much better rape prevention ideas - self defense and recognizing people that step over boundaries for example.

Conan_the_barbarian · 2012-12-06T22:55:35+00:00

Way I look at it, switch the genders in the story, if it still sounds fucked up, then it probably is wrong. If all of a sudden it doesn't seem so bad, one of the genders is getting fucked over

Vahnya · 2012-12-06T23:18:53+00:00

Edmonton?

ThePigman · 2012-12-07T00:50:11+00:00

You mean men are supposed to not rape? Christ, all the time i've put into writing "How to Rape Friends and Molest Strangers" has been for naught.

purplepowerpete · 2012-12-07T00:20:05+00:00

When you are drunk you can still make decisions though. being drunk hinders your ability to make proper decisions, but a person that is drunk can still consent or say no to sex. Especially because drinking to much was your decision and if your drunk self consents to sex which you later regret it is still your fault.

Broto_tiller · 2012-12-07T17:03:18+00:00

Angry mens rights lobster has something relevant to say regarding this issue.

Always_Doubtful · 2012-12-06T20:49:27+00:00

Its basically infantizing females so that men are responsible for the stupidity of women. Telling a man not to rape is like telling a blind man to watch where he's going. Its shaming men for actions they have not done nor will do.

Growing up you'll get advise in how to be, how to act, and how to respect your elders. That includes women, I was taught that and i've kept that advise but what do women learn ? motherhood, sharing and caring. Do they learn respect for others ? Sometimes.

On subject, If someone gets raped is it their fault ? No. You can't predict rape but a woman should be prepared if such occurs by raising self esteem and even self defence. Then rape will stop when women finally have the tools to stop it.

CaptSnap · 2012-12-06T22:19:03+00:00

I am a university student in Canada, and my campus has a number of posters around reminding people that a person who is intoxicated cannot legally consent to sex.

Right next to these posters you should put up another poster that says, "A person who is intoxicated cannot legally consent to student loan promissory notes."

blooz_clooz · 2012-12-06T23:44:56+00:00

I've found myself annoyed with these posters you speak of, because the message is nice, but it's totally impractical.

The simple fact is, that globally, even locally, trying to teach people "don't rape" is going to be way, way less effective in preventing rape, than women protecting themselves and making wise choices.

Mace is a lot more likely to save you than a philosophical poster.

Also, this message of teaching, it only applies to date rape/booze-related rapes. They don't want to believe it, but there is a difference and not all rape is created equal.

The type of person who would grab a stranger and commit a violent rape is mentally ill and cannot be "taught" not to rape.

Carry mace, or a gun, and don't put yourself at risk just because you should be able to. Reality doesn't care what you should be able to do.

Cartesian_Duelist · 2012-12-06T21:45:33+00:00

I am a university student in Canada, and my campus has a number of posters around reminding people that a person who is intoxicated cannot legally consent to sex.

Yes they can and no laws say this.

Title	On Teaching Men Not To Rape
Author	bored-guy
Upvotes	32
Comments	106
Date	December 6, 2012 8:02 PM UTC (13 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/14ef9d/on_teaching_men_not_to_rape/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/on-teaching-men-not-to-rape.1007353 https://theredarchive.com/post/1007353

Comments