CMV: If gender is a social construct, it cannot be deconstructed if it is still heavily rewarded.

wub1234 · 2016-04-24T23:25:11+00:00

Bald

Maybe I'm a bit sensitive about this, but that seems a bit harsh...

Justbeingme145 · 2016-04-25T14:54:44+00:00

I think that the women who call for the end of toxic masculinity are generally not the same women who are attracted to violent men.

kick6 · 2016-04-25T14:00:58+00:00

Gender isn't a social construct, society is a gender construct.

OfSpock · 2016-04-25T02:49:58+00:00

People aren't all one homogenous mass. Yes, gangsters attract molls and drug dealers score with addicts. That's not really the fault of women who date 3-4 people and get married.

If you want the love life of a movie protagonist, then get that spy/test pilot certification and get to slaughtering aliens.

Entropy-7 · 2016-04-25T08:41:25+00:00

At least TRP is sort of consistent going the other way: they figure women continue to be horrible because blue pill men continue to reward them.

voxvir · 2016-04-25T00:13:39+00:00

The picture you linked is regarding common traits the media portrays as being important to male protagonists.

Makes a living being violent.

Media idolizes violent men. This is toxic, because it encourages men to be violent and that people like violent men.

Biceps as big as your thighs.

Media idolizes muscular men. This is toxic because men who don't fit that muscular ideal feel a lower sense of self-worth.

Bald / Crew Cut

Media perpetuates this fashion. This is considered toxic because it is strongly associated with military regulation, again promoting aggressiveness, and implies that ideal men don't have long hair.

Brooding

Media perpetuates that men are emotionally troubled and don't handle their emotions. This is considered toxic because men need to be able to express and release emotion in productive ways to maintain their emotional health.

Gun, lots of guns.

Media idolizes violence and power through firearms. The better a man is with a gun/the more guns he has the more manly he his. This continues to reinforce the idea that men should be violent.

Sexually Aggressive

Media promotes male-female relationships in which the woman is a thing to be gotten and whose consent may even be ignored. This is considered toxic because it encourages men to ignore women's sexual agency, and tells them that being sexually passive or submissive isn't acceptable.

The problem, and what feminists leave out of the equation is that, many of these things are very attractive to some women.

Well, yeah. Part of attraction is based on what society tells us is attractive. That's what the media says is an attractive man. "Look at these big, strong, violent, emotionally suppressed guys! They're heroes! They're good! You should like them! Look at all these women who enjoy having sex with them!"

If one wants to deconstruct a social construct, this means NOT rewarding that construct. Women cannot be sleeping with men they actually do not like and want to discourage the behavior of. Sex is a big validator and enabler for men.

Yes. But we need to keep in mind that it's difficult to oppose something when the society around them is constantly telling them to reward that behavior.

StickItInTheToilet · 2016-04-25T14:18:06+00:00

You totally misunderstood that chart. It was called "Toxic masculinity protagonist bingo"

Get it?

A protagonist is a lead character in a book or movie etc. That chart also mentioned supernatural abilities, killing aliens and gritty reboots. It's talking about how film producers (usually MALE) depict their male lead leads.

Why do men insist on portraying men as aggressive, brooding, without feelings etc etc? Men have controlled Hollywood forever. Why do they do this?

In an all-male prison, where there are no females around (save for the odd guard) is it all sweetness and light?

Do men act nicer when there are no hot women around to impress OR do they become more violent?

In other words, when men are without women long term, do they default to becoming more peaceful? We have the monks (though many of those are not peaceful). Any other examples?

Why don't female doctors and professionals marry male thugs? Why don't they find them attractive? Professional women generally want professional men. (Instead, it's a percentage of women from violent, underprivileged backgrounds who tend to find violent thugs attractive.)

Have you considered that it's men who are insisting that this is what men are?

You imagine that it's all female-controlled and you know why? Because it's easy for you. Blame the women. Easy targets. It's harder blaming men. Men might hit you or shoot you if you openly insist that they shouldn't be so violent etc. But women won't, right? Women won't get you back.

Men are in competition with each other and it's not just for sex with women. They continually seek respect and release valves from feelings of shame.

So much of that is heaped onto women, because women are easy targets.

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LordFishFinger · 2016-04-25T00:36:42+00:00

It's a smug tongue-in-cheek bingo card containing mostly stereotypes and red flags of this concept.

yo_radical_one · 2016-04-25T12:34:09+00:00

Luscious head of hair crew

Can't be sexist.

Wolfsouls · 2016-04-25T15:55:01+00:00

Women cannot be sleeping with men they actually do not like and want to discourage the behavior of.

Your mistake is believing that feminists want to do away with all masculinity, this is plainly untrue. Women will always love the useful aspects of masculinity, feminists just want to dump the toxic, retarded parts. Plus, it's not women's job to collectively control men's behavior. Reproductive access is given to males with worthy genetics, regardless of their behaviors.

The rest is simple beta rationalization, they want to believe it's their behavior that makes them unattractive. This is where the nice guy/douchebag dichotomy comes from: "all attractive men must be jerks, and it's the jerkishness that women like", nah bro, that 6'6" model could be a beta doormat and women would still want his babies.

Sex is a big validator and enabler for men.

Then it's their own fault for prioritizing getting laid over being true to themselves. Either you want to be your semi-feminine self and be content with masturbation, or you put on a masculine persona and get your dick wet. You can't change the traits that women biologically select for.

qwerty3141 · 2016-04-25T18:30:56+00:00

It's still on you to be a decent person.

If I bring a gun into a bank, they'll probably give me all the money I want. It doesn't mean that I'm justified in my armed robbery because they enabled me by handing over cash. It's an extreme example, but being dominant and receiving what you want does not mean that it is good behavior.

I feel like a lot of TRP tactics prey on women with low self esteem. Being an asshole to women will attract them only if they rely on you for validation to begin with. Sure, it technically "works" if your end goal is to put your penis inside a vagina and nothing more, but that doesn't make it morally right.

Thing is, I would agree with you that gender cannot be deconstructed in our current society. That is why I choose to not deliberately abide by gender norms, and not to reward deliberate adherence to gender norms. We shape the future, and I hope the next generation rewards gender roles less.

But if you recognize that there's something wrong with not treating your girlfriend well, punching people, etc., then it's on you to not perpetuate the behavior, not to follow it because someone else does it too.

Title	CMV: If gender is a social construct, it cannot be deconstructed if it is still heavily rewarded.
Author	gavinok
Upvotes	5
Comments	83
Date	April 24, 2016 11:01 PM UTC (10 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/PurplePillDebate
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/4gaip3/cmv_if_gender_is_a_social_construct_it_cannot_be/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/PurplePillDebate/cmv-if-gender-is-a-social-construct-it-cannot-be.274969 https://theredarchive.com/post/274969

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