Regarding logic, rationality, human attraction, and the Big Lie

Jokoran · 2015-10-03T17:56:59+00:00

I don't know where you got the idea that women aren't logical. We, as humans, are logical creatures. We can all individually think and test assumptions and formulate conclusions. Just because someone is female doesn't mean that 90% of their brain is just shut off and they become sensory zombies.

That said, when picking who to fuck neither gender is logical. The logical thing for a man to do is pick a woman with lots of power and money, not the 10/10 dumb bimbo. The logical thing for a woman to do is pick the beta with a six figure salary and a good career, not the alpha jock who's been in and out of prison. Neither men nor women are logical in this regard.

"The big lie" which you mention isn't that women can think logically, it's that men and women are different. Men and women can be idiots and geniuses. Men and women can be successful or deadbeats. Men and women can be superficial or larger than life.

The only real differences between the genders are superficial changes in wiring in an otherwise incredibly complex system. You can take the worst examples of both genders (sluts and neckbeards) and point to them and say "Look! This is what ALL men/women are like!" but that would be disingenuous. When everything boils down to its basic components, we are both homo sapiens equally capable of both amazing and disgusting things.

17b29a · 2015-10-03T16:01:46+00:00

why would attraction ever have anything to do with rationality

ReformedTomboy · 2015-10-04T00:09:24+00:00

How is it illogical to reject someone your not attracted to, for whatever reason?

I understand that some BP/feminists are over kill with their rejection of female emotionality however I still don't understand why you and guys like you are mad. It's shitty but people are lied to all the time. Most political/social movements use lies to get their agenda out. Growing up I was told to get a good education etc and men will come. I was a very smart girl but not very feminine and rejected a lot. It's not until I started observing what men responded to that things got better for me romantically. It's not anyone else's job to make sure you learn the truth, it's up to you.

Also, as far as I'm concerned someone rejecting you because your vibe is off or whatever is just las good a reason as any. Since when do people need to justify why they are/aren't attracted. Simply not likely someone is a logical enough reason, IMO.

TheChemist158 · 2015-10-03T18:02:04+00:00

You might have noticed that this thread, despite being directed towards blues/feminists, have not gotten any replies from us. It is thus far only a circle jerk of people who agree with you. Your post poorly portrays what we think. Even if you believe this to be the actual way we function, people are less inclined to to answer posts when they disagree with the basic premise of it. Well, I'm bored so I'll go ahead and try to pick through this.

I think that men are more than willing to admit that there's very little thought process that goes on when determining which women they're attracted to.

The offended comments from my boyfriend says otherwise.

Men even acknowledge this superficial, thoughtless attitude in a somewhat joking manner by telling each other "you're thinking with the little head instead of the big head." Likewise, even women might criticize men for "only having one thing on their minds," yet men seem to take it all in stride and almost revel in that idea.

Maybe it is a minor detail, but those phrases aren't meant to say "you're attracted to superficial things" so much as "your attraction to superficial things is controlling you". The "thinking with your little head" phrase is usually used to mean that you are doing something stupid in hopes of sex, like paying for some slutty woman's groceries.

The only thing I wonder is: Why can't women make similar admissions?

That sometimes they are superficial? Because they seem to. I don't know what you have seen or heard, but I hear women gossiping about sexy guys somewhat often.

Would it really be such a costly admission for feminists to say that they can be just as shallow and superficial as guys and that there's absolutely zero logic or rationality at work when a woman chooses one guy over another?

Yes, that's would be a shitty thing to think and is certainly isn't true for most women. This goes back into the superficial attractions versus letting these superficial attractions control you thing. It's not uncommon for women to act superficially (I believe that most ONS are based on superficial reasons that they aren't rare). To say that women let their basic desires overrule common sense is another thing, and to say that is it the norm is even more out there.

The impression I get when I read TBP and some of their allied forums (such as "creepy PMs" and "nice guys") is that feminists are extremely insulted and angered at the mere suggestion that a woman might make a frivolous, whimsical, and thoughtless decision when choosing a partner or mate.

Where did you get that idea? TBP says that this alpha bullshit that TRP espouses will get women is repugnant and idiotic. Creepy PMS is saying that dick pics do not lead to sex. And I've never been on nice guys, but your track record doesn't lead me to trust your word for it. The two subs that I have be in are more about male tactics that don't work than how women work.

The feminist pretense is that women can be just as intelligent, logical, and rational as men are - and to suggest otherwise would be considered an attack on feminism and considered "misogynistic."

Isn't your premise of this thread that women are just as superficial and a slave to basic desires as men?

In fact, they go to such great lengths to maintain this fictitious pretense that they end up trashing "nice guys" and entire segments of the male population for being "awkward" or "creepy" merely to justify this delusion that women are infinitely "logical" and "wise" in all of their interactions and decisions about men.

I've never heard anyone suggest that. It seems like you are confusing that with laughing at some men who make some bad dating choices. Not that women are "infinitely wise", just that some men can be infinitely dumb.

This is the Big Lie that feminists and blue pillers have been propagating.

Something about that line makes my eyes rolls. Too grandiose. Too full of itself. I don't know, but my eyes are rolling.

This whole idea that the Blue Pill is just a "satire" is a smokescreen to continue to propagate this lie.

No. TBP is a satire sub because we find TRP to be ridiculous. There is no conspiracy going on, only mocking.

Let me just clue you Blue Pillers, feminists, and fellow travelers on a few harsh truths that may hurt:

This is one of those lines that I said at the beginning. No one want to sit you down and explain the difference between objective reality and your opinions. No one wants to debate the guy who feels like his words are some holy grail of knowledge that will enlighten his opponents. This includes me, but it is a lazy Saturday morning, so here we are. These are not truths, they don't hurt, and I am not impressed.

There is nothing wrong with the "nice guy," the "neckbeard," or the guy you see as "creepy" or "awkward."

Sometimes yes, sometimes no. I think that some women are too quick to call creeper. But sometimes men send dicks pics and offer to pay for sex. And those men should be shamed and ridiculed because yes, there is something wrong with them.

The only thing "wrong" in this scenario is the illogic and irrationality going on in your own head that tells you that someone is "awkward" or "creepy." That's all within you and you alone. It has absolutely nothing to do with the value of the person asking you out. It's all about you, your decision, and no one else's.

Seeing as this is an extension of the first point, the same objections apply. No, it's the fact that you think sending pictures of dicks to some chick you never meet with offers of hundreds of dollars is the problem. Not our disgust.

There was absolutely no logic to the decision you made, no matter how much you stomp your feet and complain that "Yes, I did TOO make a logical decision!"

How about this; no matter how much you repeat this line or your stomp your feet, it won't change reality. In fact, feet stomping and chanting doesn't ever change reality, no matter who it is done by. Some women can be extremely retarded when choosing men. Some are not. In fact, most women, particularly the older they get, tend to be very rational with mate selection. Is he good at managing money? Is he impulsive? Does he have a similar life plan as me? All logical questions women ask themselves to decide if he is a logical choice. Logically.

Bottom line: The "nice guy" is logical. You are not. Maybe the "nice guy" is unattractive to you, maybe he's a loser, and maybe he's not very "nice" at all and a complete asshole. But all that aside, you're still being illogical. Know that and accept it as truth.

You're painting with a mighty broad brush there. And no, as I just explained, the guy sending out dick pics to strangers isn't going to find much luck. And yes, he is the epitome of the creeper that we talk about. And no, the 31 year old woman that carefully picks out men isn't be irrational. Sometimes the tables are turned and the man is rational, and the woman irrational. I'm not delusion enough to suggest that it is this black and white thing.

The "nice guy" only becomes angry when he realizes he's been lied to. The lie in this case is a woman implying that she's making a "logical" and "sensible" decision when she's really not. If women would drop this politically-motivated pretense, the anger would drop by 90%.

The anger comes in when we don't reply to the dick pics. I'm not sure who lied and told them that dick pics will work, but it was a probably not a woman.

The lies and delusions become even more apparent when feminists believe that this observation somehow constitutes their projected male belief that they are "entitled to sex."

If a guy does a favor, and then gets offended when you don't have sex, it kinds implies that he feels entitled to sex. These men don't seem common, but that is the situation that leads to it. Like if I clean your house, and get offended that you don't pay me. It kinda means that I feel entitled to money.

And don't tell me that I'm being "sexist" just because I'm pointing this out.

Well, it is hard to say from this post alone, but considering you think that women choose men with absolutely no logic, and seem sympathetic to TRP, I'm willing to guess that you are a sexist.

wtknight · 2015-10-04T00:40:06+00:00

There is nothing wrong with the "nice guy," the "neckbeard," or the guy you see as "creepy" or "awkward."

No. Except when they think just being nice to a woman entitles them to sex with that woman. Sexual attraction doesn't work that way.

The only thing "wrong" in this scenario is the illogic and irrationality going on in your own head that tells you that someone is "awkward" or "creepy." That's all within you and you alone. It has absolutely nothing to do with the value of the person asking you out. It's all about you, your decision, and no one else's.

Once again, it comes down to desperation for sexual attention. If you want sex as a male, be someone who a woman can be attracted to. I believe in the self-improvement portion of TRP. I just don't believe in the misogyny portion of it.

There was absolutely no logic to the decision you made, no matter how much you stomp your feet and complain that "Yes, I did TOO make a logical decision!"

There is plenty of logic. Women want somebody who they feel is attractive, interesting and exciting but who they can also feel comfortable with. The ability to raise a provide for a potential child is also an important factor in the decision. Many of the men you describe are lacking in one or more of these areas.

Bottom line: The "nice guy" is logical. You are not. Maybe the "nice guy" is unattractive to you, maybe he's a loser, and maybe he's not very "nice" at all and a complete asshole. But all that aside, you're still being illogical. Know that and accept it as truth.

Once again, not true.

The "nice guy" only becomes angry when he realizes he's been lied to. The lie in this case is a woman implying that she's making a "logical" and "sensible" decision when she's really not. If women would drop this politically-motivated pretense, the anger would drop by 90%.

Love is never 100% logical, but both genders choice of who they choose is mostly logical. It's the rankest misogyny to suggest that men are putting logic into their choices of a mate while women somehow are not.

ThisWontDo · 2015-10-03T16:27:17+00:00

I will definitely admit that there is something illogical at play when it comes to sexual or romantic attraction. I can't tell you why I don't find Channing Tatum even remotely attractive but I like Dave Franco's douchebag-y sneer. That's just what I'm am/am not attracted to. Romantic attraction? I can provide a list of all of the logical reasons for why I'm in love with someone, but at the end of the day there's definitely something else going on there that I can't touch or explain.

Now, let's address these "painful truths".

There is nothing wrong with the "nice guy," the "neckbeard," or the guy you see as "creepy" or "awkward."

Agreed. However, there is something wrong with someone acting irrationally butthurt because I don't want to fuck them.

The only thing "wrong" in this scenario is the illogic and irrationality going on in your own head that tells you that someone is "awkward" or "creepy." That's all within you and you alone. It has absolutely nothing to do with the value of the person asking you out. It's all about you, your decision, and no one else's.

I don't agree with you. If someone is "awkward" i.e, has bad social skills, I don't find that attractive. How is that illogical? You can't hold a conversation with me, I'm putting in all of the work talking to you, I'm bored, I don't want to fuck you. I don't really use the word "creepy" to define anything short of stalking me or jerking off to my facebook pictures or something like that. If a superhot Chad type can't carry a conversation with me, I think he's boring and won't bang him. If he acts creepy, won't bang him.

There was absolutely no logic to the decision you made, no matter how much you stomp your feet and complain that "Yes, I did TOO make a logical decision!"

-stomps feet- "Nuh uhhhh" (because am woman and this is how we communicate apparently)

The "nice guy" is logical. You are not. Maybe the "nice guy" is unattractive to you, maybe he's a loser, and maybe he's not very "nice" at all and a complete asshole. But all that aside, you're still being illogical. Know that and accept it as truth.

Uh, what? Wait. Why is the "nice guy" logical and I am not? I thought that men were "willing to admit that there's very little thought process that goes on when determining which women they're attracted to."

Is it not illogical as a man to have a SMV of 5 and expect to bang women who have SMVs of 8 or 9? I see a lot of that going on in life, reddit in general. Why do western men prefer thin blonde women with blue eyes? Where is the logic in that? Men are just as illogical and irrational as women, especially in terms of attraction. Because humans aren't actually 100% rational/logical creatures.

Xemnas81 · 2015-10-03T15:58:04+00:00

OP the Nice Guy narrative is feminist dogma which serves to shame betas into self-emasculation and subservience to the feminine imperative. Have you read Rational Male Year One: Social Conventions, The Feminine Imperative and Mythology?

You are never going to get women to admit that they aren't aware of these processes because this would give light to AF/BB, Hypergamy and what have you, thus destroying the Shallow effect, charge of generalisations, and various other mechanisms of the feminine imperative which impose a social consciousness to lock betas into BB roles. It is a requirement of the F.I. that women retain the Feminine Mystique, including their prerogative to change their mind, and also for women to retain the perk of chivalry that is female hypo-agency (female victimhood). 3rd wave patriarchy theory is predicated around the feminine prerogative and female hypo-agency (woman=oppressed victim, man=aggressive privileged oppressor) Basically, you'd be viewed as misogynist just for trying.

2nd point, I refute the notion that psychological attraction cues are irrational. They only seem irrational because you're observing one person experiencing opposing attraction cues operating from dualistic mating startegies. Different attraction cues trigger differing mating strategy tingles respectively; Alpha+high SMV triggers seduction and mating cues, a short-term strategy often with long-term consequences, while beta triggers comfort and security cues, a long-term investment strategy. This is the root of AF/BB. It seems I may need to link this, even though it's on the side-bar http://therationalmale.com/2011/08/23/schedules-of-mating/

In men, the attraction is entirely logical when we apply basic understandings of social hierarchies. People explicitly higher in status than us trigger feelings of insecurity when around them, thus making their validation more desirable, a-gendered passive dread basically; likewise people who implicitly communicate higher status trigger said feelings of insecurity and need for their validation. This combined with observations of genetic fitness markers, which seem fairly straight-forward and not at all irrational (seriously, when was the last time you got horny for a 200lb 70 year old, eh?)

WyvernEnigma · 2015-10-03T16:14:07+00:00

Because the traits that women are subconsciously (irrationally) attracted to conflict with their conscious desires more than the traits men are subconsciously attracted to.

Men are mostly visual. They are attracted to looks primarily, with kindness and pleasantness to be around and other feminine traits as a second. Being attracted to looks might be shallow, sure, but that's where it ends. The other personality traits are things most people agree make a person nice to be around.

Now let's look at women. First off: looks and status. Both shallow things to be attracted to, yadda yadda, but if it ended there I don't think there'd be much of a problem. The real problem lies in the personality traits. Consciously, most women (most people, I imagine) want to be relaxed and comfortable in a relationship. They want to feel respected. They want to be desired. They want their partner - the person they love - to be able to express themselves and share everything with them. They want to be taken seriously.

A woman who gives those qualities to her man will have a happy relationship. A man pretty much needs to do the opposite, regardless of what her conscious brain wants. A woman might not WANT to spend time with an asshole, but boy does it make her horny. A woman might not WANT a relationship in which she is anxious, constantly worried he'll leave, degraded and negged a bit, basically treated like just another woman because HE'S the real prize, have him act stoic and closed off around her, and respond playfully instead of seriously to her concerns, but boy does it make her horny.

Men have a much easier time finding a partner that meets both their "primal" needs and their conscious needs. Women's often conflict. I have to wonder if women have to choose between what makes them consciously happy and what makes them subconsciously happy, because it honestly doesn't seem possible to truly have both. Woman's subconscious brain wants to be protected and provided for by a high status man and doesn't give a shit about being respected or treated kindly or anything like that. In primal terms: who cares if he makes you feel silly and disrespected and acts like an asshole sometimes, he brings home the bacon! I doubt women's conscious brains will ever feel the same way, thus the conflict. And unfortunately, if a man does behave like she consciously wants, she often loses attraction to him. Sexually attracted and satisfied as a primal being OR satisfied as a sentient being: pick one.

EDIT: Although now that I think of it, part of TRP is accepting that in a good relationship, you're going to be "respected" but not "protected" (summing up the general qualities in one word here). That's the crux of the whole 'men can't be loved like they want' thing. Perhaps women have to go through the same thing and accept that they're going to be "protected" but not "respected". Maybe an RPW has written about it already and I missed it, but that seems to be where the denial comes from.

HappilySingleWoman · 2015-10-03T19:05:59+00:00

I think you're making some extreme generalizations here . How do you know if the nice guy is logical and not creepy ? When I say to someone""I'm not attracted to you" and he becomes angry and insults me, then that's not very rational , that's creepy.

mcconnelldemasi · 2015-10-04T08:14:16+00:00

I think that men are more than willing to admit that there's very little thought process that goes on when determining which women they're attracted to. Men even acknowledge this superficial, thoughtless attitude in a somewhat joking manner by telling each other "you're thinking with the little head instead of the big head." Likewise, even women might criticize men for "only having one thing on their minds," yet men seem to take it all in stride and almost revel in that idea.

There has been many times when I rejected a man, he try to convince me with "logic" on why I should be attracted to him. Why do many men do this if they think attraction is just something that is there or not?

The impression I get when I read TBP and some of their allied forums (such as "creepy PMs" and "nice guys") is that feminists are extremely insulted and angered at the mere suggestion that a woman might make a frivolous, whimsical, and thoughtless decision when choosing a partner or mate. The feminist pretense is that women can be just as intelligent, logical, and rational as men are - and to suggest otherwise would be considered an attack on feminism and considered "misogynistic."

Ummmm... The creepy PMs are actually creepy. Why don't you think they are?

In fact, they go to such great lengths to maintain this fictitious pretense that they end up trashing "nice guys" and entire segments of the male population for being "awkward" or "creepy" merely to justify this delusion that women are infinitely "logical" and "wise" in all of their interactions and decisions about men. This is the Big Lie that feminists and blue pillers have been propagating. This is the basis of their anger and antipathy towards TRP. This whole idea that the Blue Pill is just a "satire" is a smokescreen to continue to propagate this lie.

I need to see examples of this because I'm questioning your views on what is socially acceptable behavior.

Let me just clue you Blue Pillers, feminists, and fellow travelers on a few harsh truths that may hurt: There is nothing wrong with the "nice guy," the "neckbeard," or the guy you see as "creepy" or "awkward." The only thing "wrong" in this scenario is the illogic and irrationality going on in your own head that tells you that someone is "awkward" or "creepy." That's all within you and you alone. It has absolutely nothing to do with the value of the person asking you out. It's all about you, your decision, and no one else's.'

No. No. No.

I'm just astounded at just how far feminists will go to avoid and deny that women are emotional creatures who simply can't think in terms of logic or rationality. TRP observes this, and feminists get so angry they want to skewer these men alive. But all they want to do is kill the messenger.

WTF? TRP puts TREMENDOUS amount of logic when choosing a mate. They calculate Ns, shit tests, submissiveness, etc. They started doing this because going along with their feelings did not work in the past. They believe any man or women who don't use logic in mate selection is a dumbass.

And don't tell me that I'm being "sexist" just because I'm pointing this out. Anyone who has spent any time on planet Earth will clearly see that men and women are different, emotionally speaking. On a global level, most humans seem to understand this. It's only the Blue Pillers and feminists who seem to have trouble figuring it out - and most people in this world are not feminist.

You're not sexist. You're delusional.

[deleted] · 2015-10-03T17:47:06+00:00

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Dietyz · 2015-10-03T15:39:22+00:00

I don't think its a conscious lie they are telling or anything like that. I just think that traits that they are attracted to aren't traits that will also provide comfort and security. So they will verbally announce all the traits that will provide them with comfort and security but those traits don't actually cause any attraction or emotional connection. So those traits are only useful to them in specific men, if those traits are the only positive things about you than you are worthless to them. There is no point in being supportive and offering comfort to someone who doesn't want it from you in the first place, you will just be used as a friend if you fit into that role.

I've seen a lot of BPers in PPD admit that they aren't being logical when they like some dude, but yea it seems feminists in general do hold that position for some reason. The women who act logically when they choose men do exist tho, they are called golddiggers

cincilator · 2015-10-03T19:12:00+00:00

And don't tell me that I'm being "sexist" just because I'm pointing this out. Anyone who has spent any time on planet Earth will clearly see that men and women are different, emotionally speaking.

Ironically you are actually arguing that women and men are the same i.e. both are making equally irrational and emotion-based decisions when it comes to mating. It is certain feminists who claim that women are virtuous and men are shallow pigs who are really claiming that women and men are different.

wazzup987 · 2015-10-04T06:58:54+00:00

The issues of the nice guy is and issues were this truth on both sides of fence, the core problem from what i have seen is the lack of honesty on one or both sides.

So for instance the nice guy will try to friend his way into a relationship by trying to get the woman to make the first move by being... well nice.

Just one problem, he never communicated that he was looking for a relationship. so he has formed a crypto-contract in his mind. this leads him to anger.

Where feminist fuck up is they infuse there bigotry on to the situation and assume the 'nice guy' just wants sex. the nice guy wants a relationship and part of relationship is sex but not the only facet of one. that where you get the 'men are 'entitle to sex' bullshit. Ever turn down a chick for sex? they get fucking violent.

Make no mistake though while i am sympathetic to the 'nice guy' what he is doing is still manipulative. it not as threatening as feminists make it out to be, but its still manipulative.

Now some times some women will play along and lead the 'nice guy' on. most everyone hates these women.

there is a third type of nice guy that is genuinely creepy. and regardless of whether or not they have some form of autism they still have issues to work out. this third type need sex therapist to help them out because society won't.

[deleted] · Sun Oct 4 8:01:48 2015 UTC

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RPSigmaStigma · 2015-10-03T23:15:57+00:00

I don't know what you're talking about. I'm only interested in demure, homely, "mom bod" women who would make good mothers and who cook a mean sweet potato casserole.

Title	Regarding logic, rationality, human attraction, and the Big Lie
Author	ValleyFever101
Upvotes	22
Comments	109
Date	October 3, 2015 3:25 PM UTC (10 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/PurplePillDebate
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/3ncmnw/regarding_logic_rationality_human_attraction_and/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/PurplePillDebate/regarding-logic-rationality-human-attraction-and.279258 https://theredarchive.com/post/279258

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