Should we train men to protect women against rape?

gavinok · 2015-03-25T01:00:36+00:00

http://news.yahoo.com/kenyan-schoolboys-save-girls-rape-learning-no-means-064821695.html A very interesting article about a program in Nairobi that trains...

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[–]JP_Whoreganblack n yellow black n yellow black n yellow black n yellow16 points17 points18 points 11 years ago* (99 children) | Copy Link

That's victim blaming, shitlord!!! /s

Feminists are so fucking retarded. We teach people from childhood that thievery/stealing is wrong, too. But I still lock my doors and arm my home alarm system.

Women actually believe that they should be completely safe to walk through downtown Chicago, at 2am, alone, unarmed, drunk, and wearing a halter top and booty shorts, and that nothing bad will ever ever happen to them. And if something bad does happen, she bears no fault at all for putting herself in a dangerous situation.

I mean, such delusional logic would never be afforded to a man. If I, as a man, passed out drunk in an alley in Compton, and woke up the next day missing my Movado, my wallet, and my leather jacket, people would call me a fucking idiot and ask me why I did something so stupid. Nobody would say "victim blaming" and that we should teach thugs "not to steal".

This is one of the principal reasons we say women are basically children trapped in adult bodies. They want to be able to do whatever they want, whenever they want, however they want, and at the same time bear no consequence or responsibility for their bad behavior that resulted in a bad consequence. This sort of thing is how we treat, well....children. When a child has something bad happen to them, we say "well, he/she's just a child, he/she didn't know any better".

We excuse them of responsibility because children don't have the mental capacity for personal agency. Just like women.

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[–]JP_Whoreganblack n yellow black n yellow black n yellow black n yellow0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

fault

"Fault". This is the word you feminist types always get hung up on. Guess what? Once the rape is over it doesn't fucking matter whether it's the rapists fault, the victim's fault, the toilet's fault, or the man on the moon's fault.

There is plenty of time after the rape to assign the rapist his fault in a court of law. The fact of the matter is it still happened. And what sane, logical people (non-feminists, in other words) are saying is that there are sane, logical steps women can take to prevent it from happening in the first place. Things like "moderate your drinking", or "travel in groups" or "carry mace or a tazer". But for some reason suggesting these things is "victim blaming" to bat-shit crazy feminists.

Analogy: if I park my Lexus in a gas station in a high-crime neighborhood, get out, leave the car door open, with my keys in the ignition and the motor running, and then leave for 2 hours to go on a walk, do you think my car is gonna be there when I get back? No, probably not.

But /u/dylang92 says, "But JP! Car theft is illegal and it's the thief's fault he stole your car!" Yes, it is, but it's also my fault for being a fucking careless idiot with something I value. Fact of the matter is, I wouldn't have to worry about who's fault it is if I take steps to prevent my victimhood in the first place.

Is prevention going to stop ALL crimes/rapes? No, of course not. But what feminists are asking for is the ability to be completely fucking out of control with their behavior around horny men, and then be able to cry victim when horny men act like horny men around women who are teasing them, getting drunk with them, and leading them on in sexual ways. If you take a douche-bro frat boy up to a dark bedroom and start giving him a hand-job, don't be surprised when he wants to take it further, and you wanna pull the "we're not having sex" card, and he doesn't exactly obey your wishes. You could have prevented the situation by not fondling his junk in the first place.

"An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. - Benjamin Franklin

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[–]chasingstatueszion was part of the matrix13 points14 points15 points 11 years ago* (9 children) | Copy Link

"I hear what I want to hear in order to miss obvious points."

You apparently live under this guise that nothing bad can never happen to you because you have taken every precaution to protect yourself and you will always be smarter and stronger than anyone who tries to hurt you. Which is, of course, delusional.

It also presumes that bad things only happen to people who didn't bother to take any precaution to defend themselves. As in, anyone who has ever been a victim is at fault.

It's a world view that sets itself up nicely. Crimes can only be judged in hindsight, so hindsight allows you to go, "oh, well X wouldn't have happened if you'd just done Y." This also allows you to presume infallible foresight. "X has never happened to me because I do Y."

It doesn't take into account all the millions of variables that effect each individual situation. It's why, when you talk about rape, it has to be in extreme and exaggerated situations (half-naked women running through the street at 4am). Because you can't allow the thought that some people are smart and they took every precaution they could and it still didn't work.

It allows you to feel safe in your self-aggrandizing perspective. You're Dwight Schrute with weapons hidden in every corner of the office. It's a joke.

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The poster's logic here that:

Because you can't allow the thought that some people are smart and they took every precaution they could and it still didn't work.

Is saying that things can still fail despite people taking the right precautions, and this statement is entirely invalid in all areas of life. Bad things are caused by human input and lack of action.

The example I sighted is where on a normal jumbo jet flight over the pacific, the air speed indicator on the airplane stopped working due to the air in the pitot tubes on the outside of the plane freezing, but the plane itself was still in normal flight at cruising altitude. However, because the air speed can't be monitored, the plane reverted back to manual control and not auto-pilot. In the cockpit, a stall warning sounded, which is an indication that the plane is flying too slowly to maintain flight, and will begin falling out of the sky if evasive action is not taken. The correct and simple way to fix this situation is to point the nose of the plane down and increase thrust.

For an unknown reason, one of the pilots took control of the plane and pointed the nose up and allowed the plane to climb. This is the exact opposite of what one should do in this situation, and caused the plane to enter a stall, which caused it to begin falling from the sky. For the next 8 minutes, the same pilot keeps the plane with the nose up, and does not change his control column in an attempt to correct the problem. He states on the cockpit voice recorder he doesn't know what's going on. The plane crashes into the sea killing all 227 people on board.

The example shows that, a traumatic incident like this was caused by the failure of a pilot to respond to a simple error, and that plane crashes always occur because of human error and lack of precaution, which contradicts the poster's view point.

[–]stone_henge0 points 11 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Is saying that things can still fail despite people taking the right precautions, and this statement is entirely invalid in all areas of life.

That depends on your definitions of "fail" and "precaution". Even if we take "fail" to mean "die", for example, and "precaution" to generously mean using anything that is known or can be known to avoid it, our current understanding is that there are some fundamentally non-deterministic properties of the laws of physics that make some facts of the universe inherently unknowable. If you go to the currently held idea of the "bottom" of any event, you end up dealing with fuzzy quantum mechanics.

If we humbly limit the definition of "precaution" to that which is realistically knowable, our surface and atmosphere is exposed to all the terrors of the unknown universe. Let's now take "fail" to mean, say, "getting hit by a meteorite". It is very hard to anticipate a meteor strike, and the precautionary measures that can be taken at all are more likely to kill you than the very rare occurrence of a one. Even spending a minute thinking about it would probably be more detrimental to your health than any meteorite ever will. Yet, every now and then someone gets struck and seriously hurt by some tiny space pebble. What precautions were not taken?

The example shows that, a traumatic incident like this was caused by the failure of a pilot to respond to a simple error, and that plane crashes always occur because of human error and lack of precaution, which contradicts the poster's view point.

The example does not show that plane crashes always occur because of human error and lack of precaution. Even if it did, that would not contradict the poster's viewpoint, which is not limited to airplane accidents, and of which the "some" people haven't necessarily ever seen an airplane.

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Crime can happen to anyone.

That's not what she was saying, though. It was far more intentionally loaded then just saying "but some times bad things can happen" and was all about trying to push this highly subjective personal belief as some kind of universal truth.

it's just one you don't want to answer so you're avoiding it. I can imagine why.....

Is this going to be another "it's because misogyny" accusation?

Because that doesn't work in this context. You can't say that you're not answering the question if you give any answer other then the one that the question asker considers to be "the right one".

Saying "nothing can ever happen to me because I'm so prepared and I'd defeat any attacker" does sound stupid. But so does the question to begin with, which alleges that anyone who's assaulted and violated on their way home from work would be "victim blamed"-- this isn't a legitimate question at this point as it is a manifestation of the asker's third waver mentality.

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[–]dogtim0 points 11 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

That's not really an answer. Unless you literally watched some videos of ISIS beheading people and immediately afterward decided to buy a gun. I could just as easily cite "novels" and "ingrid michaelson" and "meditation" and "singing kumbaya around a fire with a bunch of other liberal hippy assholes" and "genuine human connection and really good sex" and "gin martinis" as reasons why the world is not in fact populated by savage apes. Be real with me. What led you personally to that conclusion?

I've been lucky to have a generally positive life. Very few people I love dying suddenly, very few health problems, nobody really's tried to kill me or rape me so far, my country has a more or less stable government where I can trust I won't be the victim of random or state violence, an interesting and engaging line of work, lots of opportunity to travel around and meet new people, not a huge amount of money but enough to do what I want. I have been lucky. Maybe that's why I'm generally pretty positive, maybe it's just my character. Don't know.

so what about you?

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[–]dogtim1 point 11 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

that's kind of an interesting idea--guns as crime insurance. if we expand that analogy a little, let's see...both insurance policies and guns are purchased by individuals from private companies for protection of some sort. If there's a state health care policies, does that mean that the police are state crime insurance? Maybe I dunno. The key difference being, I think, is that car insurance doesn't prevent the accident from happening, it just pays out (theoretically...) should someone smash into your car. Guns theoretically prevent the whole accident from happening. This is where you're coming from, right? It's not a bad idea. But.

But rape is not most commonly, oh, some wacko jumps out of the bushes with a knife, and then you know I reach into my purse, grab my beretta and blammo his dick off. In that case, if you're very lucky, if you aren't surprised, if you manage to get out your weapon before being restrained by someone much, much stronger than you, if you don't get knocked unconscious, then yes, having a sidearm would be pretty helpful. Someone else said it earlier in this thread much better than I'm about to, but it seems like the logic is that if you didn't take steps to prevent your own rape, then you had it coming. TRUST ME: WOMEN TAKE A LOT OF STEPS TO PREVENT THEIR OWN RAPE. It's just something women have to think about every fucking day, and men really do not. So even in this situation of a crazy dude in the bushes who leaps out, there's a lot of luck involved, and having a gun is not the guarantee it's advertised to be. It might help, I admit. But it also might not.

And the key problem: this doesn't address the two thirds of rapes where the survivors already know who their rapist is. If you go to a party and see this one guy who's sort of skeezy but been at a few other parties your friends have, and he corners you in a moment of vulnerability, then what? Have a gun strapped to your thighs at all times? Suspect everyone at the party of being a monster? Because that already happens. I just don't want to live in a society where I have to be paranoid all the fucking time. Violence cannot solve all these problems.

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I'm with you 90% here. Blaming the victim is never, ever the answer, but victim empowerment and victim blaming don't need to go hand in hand. If I'm walking home (late at night as usually happens), and the 3 drunk guys on the porch decide I look too much like a "fag" and decide to beat the fuck out of me ,that is absolutely not my fault. In fact it's the opposite, I'm the victim. But I will still do everything in my power to fight back because fuck if I'm going to be more of a victim than I already am. I learned at a young age that people that want to hurt you, will try to hurt you, because a small percentage of the population is kind of awful. That could mean sexual assault of some form (statistically much more common for women unfortunately) or a plain old shit-kicking/mugging.

But at the same time, I'm aware. I know full well that walking home alone at 2am probably isn't even safe for all 6' 170lbs bearded me, much less someone who society is more likely to make a target. But (and this is for jp-whoregan) that doesn't mean I deserve to be mugged, assaulted, raped or whatever. No one deserves it. Hell I wouldn't even say rapists deserve to to be raped, and that's coming from someone who's pro-death-penalty.

At the same time however, I don't get to expect to be safe at that point, noone gets to expect it. We all deserve it, for fuck sake everyone DESERVES to be safe, but in situations where the risks increase (late at night, or on weekends when people are more inclined to do stupid shit) I feel like it's better to expect the worst. Because people.

Then again that logic probably makes me kind of jaded.

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Your assertion is a bit flawed, considering that whether or not you lock your door, someone stealing your stuff is still committing a crime. Precautions taken against the criminal act don't factor on the criminality.

And there are a lot of places in the US where people don't lock their doors regularly. And if one wants to extend that responsibility to women, one can extend it to anyone who is mugged or otherwise victimized on the street. Well, if they had a gun to shoot their attackers, it wouldn't be a problem.

The point isn't to absolve, the point is how things should be. People shouldn't feel unsafe on the streets. They do in a lot of places, but we don't hold them guilty for that, because they don't roll with a full kit of protective devices all the time.

We hold those who make our streets unsafe guilty.

[–]JP_Whoreganblack n yellow black n yellow black n yellow black n yellow2 points3 points4 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

The point isn't to absolve, the point is how things should be. People shouldn't feel unsafe on the streets.

People shouldn't get hit by drunk drivers. People shouldn't lose their life savings to a stock market crash. People shouldn't be victims of abuse. People shouldn't die in gangland cross-fire shootings. People shouldn't die of cancer.

Shouldn't, shouldn't, shouldn't....the BP's and feminism's favorite word.

That's the principal difference between RP and BP thinking. RP accepts the world for what it actually is, and we frame our lives accordingly; BP keeps waxing on and on about how the world should be, and they whine and complain when real life doesn't mesh with their ideal.

Yes. You can hold criminals "guilty". You can throw them in jail. You can execute them. You can shun them. You can shame them. None of it actually undoes the crime.

Only steps towards prevention can do that. It's not "victim blaming" to advise college girls not to dress like a street whore and go to frat parties with horny men and get blackout drunk. It's called prevention.

[–]polyhooly-1 points0 points1 point 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

The prevailing thought in society is that women should take necessary precautions to avoid being raped, and that often times when a woman is raped, she could have done some things differently, like imbibed less, wore different clothes, etc... Most people teach their daughters these things, not that they can and should pass out at parties, walk around dangerous neighborhoods barely dressed, and expect nothing to happen to them. Get fucking real.

Don't give me this bullshit that women are widely not held responsible, never questioned about what they could have done differently, and never have their character questioned in many cases of rape. Women are not excused of responsibility. They are often held responsible for themselves and the decisions the men around them make.

What you so predictably fail to understand is that this feminist (not prevailing societal attitudes) notion of doing away with victim blaming is in response to the very prevalent attitude that "boys will be boys." You want to talk about a group of people doing whatever they want, whenever they want, however they want, and at the same time bear no consequence or responsibility for their bad behavior, its men. How can some men control themselves from raping women if presented with an easy opportunity?!? The whore shouldnt have been tempting him!

So here we have a group who, upon your own admission, can be impulsive, taking what they please with little regard for how their behavior affects others, and are often absolved of their behavior by society because it was her fault for showing off her shape. Who are the child-like ones in this situation? It ain't women.

Men are children and should be treated accordingly.

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Boy, that would be nice! If people looked out for others and "prevented" their needless suffering, rape, assault, theft etc., then that means that women wouldn't NEED to pay attention to how much they drink, where they walk at night or who's van they get into (not that they do anyway)!

It's sad that "personal responsibility" can't even be uttered in a rape thread without somebody crying "victim blaming!"

If I walk out of my house and don't close my front door, it's not my fault when I get robbed, but I could have made myself a less-than-ideal target. Similarly, women jogging through sketchy neighborhoods at night without protection (mace, whistle, flashlight, gun etc.) or not monitoring their alcohol intake at a frat party are not making smart decisions for themselves - but we aren't allowed to tell them that.

That would be like telling a paraplegic that if they had worn their seat belt, they would still be able to walk. What's wrong with that? Why not let them know that their negligence, or at the very least, lack of vigilance, sealed their fate and could have been avoided? Why? Because educating women on how to take care of themselves and make smarter personal choices is taboo. Why? Does anybody have an answer to this question?

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Thats not possible because female myocytes, or skeletal muscle cells don't possess HAR, or Human Androgen Receptors to the same degree that men do, so the lower level of testosterone will prevent women from ever achieving the same level of strength as men.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8477683

"Strength and muscle characteristics were examined in biceps brachii and vastus lateralis of eight men and eight women. Measurements included motor unit number, size and activation and voluntary strength of the elbow flexors and knee extensors. Fiber areas and type were determined from needle biopsies and muscle areas by computerized tomographical scanning. The women were approximately 52% and 66% as strong as the men in the upper and lower body respectively. The men were also stronger relative to lean body mass. A significant correlation was found between strength and muscle cross-sectional area (CSA; P < or = 0.05). The women had 45, 41, 30 and 25% smaller muscle CSAs for the biceps brachii, total elbow flexors, vastus lateralis and total knee extensors respectively. The men had significantly larger type I fiber areas (4597 vs 3483 microns2) and mean fiber areas (6632 vs 3963 microns2) than the women in biceps brachii and significantly larger type II fiber areas (7700 vs 4040 microns2) and mean fiber areas (7070 vs 4290 microns2) in vastus lateralis. No significant gender difference was found in the strength to CSA ratio for elbow flexion or knee extension, in biceps fiber number (180,620 in men vs 156,872 in women), muscle area to fiber area ratio in the vastus lateralis 451,468 vs 465,007) or any motor unit characteristics. Data suggest that the greater strength of the men was due primarily to larger fibers. The greater gender difference in upper body strength can probably be attributed to the fact that women tend to have a lower proportion of their lean tissue distributed in the upper body.(ABSTRACT TRUNCATED AT 250 WORDS)

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Title	Should we train men to protect women against rape?
Author	gavinok
Upvotes	2
Comments	155
Date	March 25, 2015 1:00 AM UTC (11 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/PurplePillDebate
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/30789s/should_we_train_men_to_protect_women_against_rape/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/PurplePillDebate/should-we-train-men-to-protect-women-against-rape.283013 https://theredarchive.com/post/283013

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