So...can we just have a quick discussion?

alisonstone · 2015-01-23T21:43:39+00:00

Men only want to date the top 20% of women and women only want to date the top 20% of men. So when speaking in generalities, it will always sound like the other side is complete garbage because that is addressing the bottom 80% that nobody wants (but people eventually settle for if they are not on top).

When you go on /r/theredpill, you will get a skewed distribution of people. I bet the bottom 25% of men are over represented at TRP. It's like going to /r/personalfinance, a forum about responsible financial habits, and you will find a ton of posts like "I am in 250k debt and my mom is about to kick me out of the house, what should I do?". Those guys are clearly at the bottom when it comes to finances, but why are there so many bottom dwellers in a forum about good financial habits? It's just the way forums are, the extremes at the top and bottom are the most interesting so those posts get the most comments and views. The same is true at /r/theredpill. There is going to be an over-representation of omega males because they are the most vocal and they are the ones that may get the most benefit from the forum. You also get over-representation at the top because some people love to teach others (or maybe show off too), and because those posts are far more interesting then those from people in the middle.

The key is being able to identify high quality posts and low quality ones. If you are going to Reddit for facts, you are going to get a lot of bad information.

Katniss_Granger · 2015-01-23T20:45:29+00:00

Honestly I see where you're coming from and really the best advice I'd give is just don't go over there, the vast majority of them are not the men we aim to please, they're not the men we're devoting ourselves to and we, as women who refuse to be plates, are not the women that most of them want or are looking for either.

We don't seek "red pill" men, we seek good men who can take control of the relationship in a way that suits both partners,whether or not he is "red pill" is a total non-issue.

The balance, I think, comes from the general idea of traditional gender roles and the idea that women have been lead to overstep our mark in today's society by becoming selfish and lazy and self-entitled (in a nutshell), RP men and RP Women then branch off in to our own ways of dealing with that. That's how I see it, I don't speak for all of us of course.

PhantomDream09 · 2015-01-23T20:36:36+00:00

I'm going to quote some other comments that I have made recently so I can save some time, but I'll try to explain this as best I can.

Both TRP and RPW work off a base set of ideas that talk about the differences between men and women. TRP focuses on the male sexual dating strategy, and RPW focuses on the female sexual dating strategy (which are, by nature, at odds with each other in many ways).

RP gentlemen can focus on: self-improvement, casual dating/spinning plates, LTRs/marriage, MGTOW, or monk mode. The RPW ladies focus on: self-improvement, and finding/improving/establishing long-term relationships and/or marriages. The RPW sub does not advocate casual, hook-up centered dating (which includes, but is not limited to: one night stands, friends with benefits etc). TRP is about becoming a more capable and effective man by recognizing flaws and weaknesses, and then pursuing certain goals (depending on the individual's focus/preference that may mean anything from acquiring casual sex, to establishing a solid LTR - it varies a lot). RPW is about identifying and acknowledging weaknesses and flaws, then striving to minimize them. We want to be the best women we can be.

RPW and TRP do not have to be compatible in the sense that "all users from the opposite sub have to agree with everything users on the other one say." TRP and RPW is about individual journeys. Every user is responsible for their own goals, outlooks etc. The subs simply provide a space for other people that want to learn, grow, discuss, and help to interact with each other. RPW recognizes the sames ideas, arguments, and perspectives that appear on TRP - but the subs have different overall focuses. Since both subs are based off of the same underlying concepts, bad-mouthing TRP is not allowed on the RPW sub (this also falls in line with the overall 'consistency' rule that we hold all users to - ie "don't insult/mock a RP sub on BP etc") - if they want to participate on RPW. Furthermore, we don't permit users to bad-mouth their SO's because complaining/off-loading responsibility does no good and the only person you can control and change is yourself.

Link

TRP and RPW both operate off of Red Pill ideas. RPW are not beholden to or commanded to respect, defer to, or cheer for RP gentleman users. I have said time and again that RP male users are not necessarily good LTR candidates for RPW users. RPW ladies simply want to find a good man, knowledge of RP is not mandatory in any way, shape, or form. We're not looking to please Red Pill men, we seek to support, love, and respect the man we enter into a relationship with and/or marry.

Link

RPW ladies do not want to be matched up with the male users on TRP (or vice versa). TRP and RPW as subs work off of the same ideas and utilize different approaches. RPW users want a good man to be in a relationship with and/or marry. Good is subjective. Some of the ladies have traditionally masculine men, while others are not. Most of the men have no idea, notion, or awareness of what "Red Pill" means other than two words randomly thrown together. RPW focuses on how to be a better woman, TRP focuses on how to be a better man (again, the definition of 'better' is subjective and depends entirely on the goals of the individual).

Link

Many of the gentlemen on TRP are bad LTR candidates simply because they are not interested in or focused on establishing a long-term relationship. That doesn't make them bad people in a moral sense - it just doesn't make them an ideal option for the RPW ladies. Even of the gentlemen that do want a long-term relationship - they may also have certain caveats (for example: a relationship where the gentleman is still allowed to go out and date/sleep with other women etc) that make them poor LTR choices for the RPW ladies.

The chances of meeting a man in every day life that knows about and participates on the TRP (or related subs) is limited. Many of the ladies on the RPW sub are already married or in long-term relationships. The ones that are single and looking for a good man aren't skimming TRP for options. When we talk about finding a good man - that's more or less subjective to every individual. Not everyone on the RPW sub has a Captain/First Mate relationship, but the dynamic is still useful for the woman if she's interested in learning how to be more supportive etc.

There are also many men that read (but do not participate on) RP subs and there are also users on the RPW sub that never comment or post as well. Which means there an undefined portion of Red Pill readers that are unaccounted for. It's important to note that the way the RP gentleman talk on TRP is not the same way they talk in real life.

TRP consists of unfiltered locker-room talk. Some of the language is used simply to reinforce ideas that are not natural to the gentlemen (surplus mentality, hold firm, maintain frame, do not engage in conflict etc). Some of the gentlemen start experiencing success for (if not the first time in their life then) the first time in a very long while. How they talk on the sub isn't how they talk to women. The anger is probably one of the most alarming things that non-RP users witness on TRP, but it doesn't bother me. Mainly because (1) I know the sub is not meant for women, it's a place for men, and (2) I've seen many users transition from new user to angry user to more skilled user to leaving TRP entirely. There are some users that stick around, and the process is not a straight line for anyone. The sub is also bottom heavy (new users far outnumber the mods and more knowledgeable users). The size of the sub itself is no doubt a moderating nightmare.

Link

What an "ideal" RP relationship looks like is going to change depending on the personalities involved. There are many different types of Captain/First Mate relationships. Some of which would absolutely destroy my sense of happiness, not because they are 'wrong' or 'bad' in any way - but because of my personality.

The Captain/First Mate dynamic could be an entire thread on its own, and I’ve seen this model implemented in numerous different ways. There are some expressions of this model that would severely compromise the stability and happiness of my own relationship, yet those variations are perfect for other couples. Part of how the Captain/First Mate dynamic is implemented has a lot to do with the personalities at play. I know that the way my SO and I have created the C/FM structure may not work well for everyone (for various reasons), but it’s still the one I keep in mind first and foremost when I talk about this (and yes, that’s a solipsistic view on my part haha). So keep that in mind as I try to explain things.

A good Captain/Leader takes responsibility for a lot of things. He is the first and last line of defense in many ways, he shoulders responsibility for his SO’s happiness, comfort, and security. He prioritizes her needs because she prioritizes his needs and by being a good First Mate – triggers his desire to be a good leader. A good leader delegates tasks, understands his SO’s strengths and abilities. A good Captain is pro-active – and so is a good First Mate. We have clearly defined the boundaries of our relationship, we are both mindful of how we interact with each other, we address issues before they become problems. There is a hierarchy within our relationship, but that doesn’t mean he holds all the power and I have none.

My SO makes decisions that benefit our relationship, not because he wants something. That’s a very central aspect to my ideal of a good leader. A good First Mate does the same thing because the individual is secondary to the health/stability of the relationship. Both the Captain and The First Mate work to protect the relationship in various ways. I protect my SO’s reputation and show that I respect him by how I interact with him in public, speak about him, as well as how I treat him when we are alone. When something comes up, I freely provide my opinions and insights – my SO values my input, especially in areas where I have more experience and knowledge.

That’s another misconception about this dynamic – many people assume that the Captain is a tyrant, with final say in all things, and is all knowing….I’m not sure where that misunderstanding comes from but it’s wrong. A good First Mate knows the difference between small issues and big problems. I often handle things that simply aren’t worth bothering my SO with (and he does the same). I have insights and perspectives that help resolve issues, and we are always working together towards a goal. Honestly, we’ve never had a fight or an argument. We don’t squabble, bicker, or have disagreements. If and/or when there’s an issue, it gets brought up, discussed and addressed. Once something has been resolved – that’s the end of it and there are no lingering negative feelings.

I’ve mentioned this before, but friends and family (people that know me well) would never say “clearly this relationship is unbalanced/unfair." If anything, we probably look as though we implement a completely egalitarian and equal relationship because of how well we treat each other and how simple everything looks. That said, our relationship is based not on equality, but on mutual satisfaction and a clear division of duties/roles.

Link

scallopkid · 2015-01-23T20:44:42+00:00

I think it's important to note that both rpw and trp are about how to maximize your individual happiness in the society you live in. We are associated because we base our advice on the same information, not because we are each other's ideal partners.

tintedlipbalm · 2015-01-23T19:50:30+00:00

www.reddit.com/r/RedPillWomen/comments/1x1284/if_any_of_you_hens_find_trp_to_be_a_little_too/

Take from the red pill what is useful to you and your SO, and leave the rest, really.

RussSur · 2015-01-23T22:00:52+00:00

Some comments so far have only alluded to this. So I will spell it out.

Many of the men in TRP are working through the Five Stages of Grief over their newfound worldview-shattering knowledge. Let's look at those stages one-by-one.

Denial and Isolation - "Who needs women, anyway? They lie, they divorce-rape, they falsely accuse, they don't even know what they want! I don't need that sh*t, that's for damn sure!"
Anger - "Women are awful, they deserve to be used because AWALT. F*ck 'em."
Bargaining - "What if I just spin plates? That's the best I can hope for, anyway, right?"
Depression - MGTOW, and often more anger because we really want a great relationship with a great woman, but know better than to hope for a unicorn, so...
Acceptance - "Here's some great advice about LTRs"

So, how many of those phases are likely to give you posts that don't make you out to be "kneeling whorshipping dummies" (major kudos for the word whorshipping, BTW - if it's been used before I missed it, so you get credit for showing it to me)? I only see one, so that's your clue. Only read posts tagged TRP Endorsed, and your ratio will improve dramatically.

Remember, we've been raised our entire lives, effectively lied-to by the very group of people we most want to understand and love. And now that we finally have someone who can teach us, it's easy to feel like it's too-little too-late. "Look at how much happiness has been stolen from my life! I can never get that back, and now it might even be too late."

Are there some men in TRP who will never be good partners, even for RPW? Of course. But, some of us are still learning (and hoping it's not too late). Even as we grieve. Try to give us a little understanding and maybe even some healing. That's what you do best; it's what we need from you most. And we've been without it all our lives, based on lies. Feel free to peek in every now and then, but try not to judge what we say in our male-only space.

Believe it or not, all the negative things you read really do result in healing and growth. It's how we have to do it without you. And until we do it, we have no choice but to do it without you (because we can't have you until we do it on our own).

aZombieKitten · 2015-01-23T22:12:30+00:00

TRP and RPW come from the same vein of information. The strategies used, however, are pretty different because of the fact that each space is focused on what works best for men or women. In that case, for TRP, than spans everything from MGTOW to plate spinning to LTR/marriage. For RPW, the strategy is LTR/marriage, specifically focused on what we, as women, can do to improve ourselves and our relationships (with good men). There has always been a difference in male and female sexual strategy.

Additionally, the tone is different in each sub. Over in TRP, it's 100% men talk (which seems harsh). Over here, it's more geared towards women. The terms are the same, but the tone is different. If you don't like the tone of TRP, you don't have to read it. If you prefer RPW, then stick to it, even though valuable information can be gained at times from reading the main sub.

As Phantom said, there is not a whole lot of men from TRP that are suitable for LTR, therefore we don't gear our behavior to pleasing those men, but rather men that fit what's necessary for a good LTR (or our current SOs, in the case of those of us who are in established relationships).

What's important is that you realize the difference in the two is not inherently bad.

neveragoodtime · 2015-01-24T00:23:54+00:00

TRP addresses 3 sexual strategies for men, maintaining happy LTRs, happy plates, or monk mode. I think of these as captains, pirates, and fisherman. Their goals do not necessarily align with your goals. I'm not sure if the female red pill strategy is stratified this way, since they primarily focus on the first mate option. So for starters, you should be screening for captains, and avoiding pirates. That doesn't mean all Red Pill men are pirates looking for plates. Some are captains looking for a quality supportive first mate for an LTR.

Bortasz · 2015-01-24T08:14:06+00:00

I think you should remember some facts:

TRP and RPW recognize the same rules of the game.
However TRP and RPW have different goals.
RPW or rather women gathered here want Long Time Relationship. And they want to keep it until the old age. This is consisted with there desires, biology /gender.
TRP for the most part do not want LTR. They want spin the plates.

Also pleas remember that for women LTR is very save and rewarding. For guy is not so much.

In today legal system men literally put gun in his mouth and give wife a trigger.

And the rules are that she will not suffer any consequence by pulling it.

You will not find the balance because there is none. Go to Men's right reddit or PussyPass and you will see how much legal system is stack against men.
And you expect us to be not angry and bitter?

TRP know all this stuff. They know how much game is screw against them. So they decide to learn the rules as best as they can and beat the cheating game.

They do so by spining plates, going there own way, focusing only on them self. And giving big middle finger to society.

Balance? Trust me TRP wish that there was balance. It will make life of so many of us simple, easy. But there is no balance.

couchpotatocarl · 2015-01-24T10:25:56+00:00

What you said fits perfectly because of the differences between the sexes. We are polygamous and women are hypergamous.

When a man is having sex, he is having sex with a lot of average women (1 or 2 might be special if he's lucky). Women wait for the best catch. Because our standards for sex are so much lower than women, a lot of these women you would be embarrassed to take home to mama(ie not classy ladies but a firm ass). Because a woman's standard for sex is so much higher, the person she is fucking is literally the cream of her crop. She doesn't fuck average or the bottom of the barrel. The only difference here is perspective. Some RPmen are looking for Mrs. Right, while their dicks are leading them to Mrs. Right now.

*TRP advice tells a man how to deal with the mess his dick wants to get him into

RPW advises women how to keep a great catch.

whitebunny87 · 2015-01-23T20:53:24+00:00

TRP is for guys, a lot of them are angry, etc, etc. i avoid TRP for that reason. i have noticed recently a bigger TRP presence over on this board though, advertising this kind of "women are dirt" mentality. can't say that i like it, but whatever. just ignore the stuff that doesn't apply to your own relationship/search for a relationship.

[deleted] · 2015-01-24T16:37:34+00:00

[permanently deleted]

ven5 · 2015-01-24T06:47:24+00:00

Seeing so many long explanations going in circles. To keep it short, the goal behind the harsh-sounding advice on TRP is to attract women and get them to treat us better (ignoring the anger phase posts). Here, it's just reversed. If you were to apply all of the advice on TRP on your man, it's highly likely to not end well. That's where RPW comes in.

illwill203 · 2015-01-23T20:11:18+00:00

As a guy it's imperative that you take everything said over there and weed through the shit. As has been mentioned there is a lot of heartbroken and pissed off guys in that sub. Work on yourself for yourself AND him. You aren't a slave and we don't want you to be.

Edit: Also a lot of what is said in there is said so that WE can weed through the females that want to use us and aren't worth our time, so that we can find you, the red pill women, without already being bitter.

[deleted] · 2015-01-24T20:45:57+00:00

[permanently deleted]

mrp3anut · 2015-01-23T19:54:31+00:00

Most guys on TRP are angry towards the modern world and women. A lot of that bitterness comes out there because it is one of very few places they can express it.

The goal of a RPW is to find a strong guy that wants what she has to offer, not just any strong guy.

frozen_strawberry · 2015-01-23T20:58:49+00:00

i always take that with a grain of salt. a lot of guys over there are in the anger phase. but there are also a lot of guys who are in relationships and who are moderate about all of it. there's always extremists and they are usually the loudest but it doesnt mean they speak for the majority.

collusion72 · 2015-01-24T14:00:08+00:00

This is a good post and I get what you're saying. I think reading TRP, TRPW and even TBP can be a great learning tool for people trying to understand others and themselves. I, as a man, when reading TRP find a lot of things to ring true. So much of my behavior has resulted in responses from women as described by others. In a short time I have learned a lot about myself and the opposite sex. That being said, tintedlipbalm is correct by linking to this post: http://www.reddit.com/r/RedPillWomen/comments/1x1284/if_any_of_you_hens_find_trp_to_be_a_little_too/ I **too have found myself at various stages.

I find that I don't truly care for (want to be friends/date, etc) the majority of men/women. So it's not surprising that I don't agree with most posts. Sometimes I read a post and I have an idea in my head of what their spouse/friend, etc. is like and I totally get where they are coming from and their feeling. But it may not have anything to do with my relationships. It just doesn't apply, we are two different people in two different places.

Anyway, don't let the idiots and jaded posts stop you from learning from the more insightful ones. As alisonstone said, it's usually 80/20

edit: too many **"myself"'s in the post, lol.

StingrayVC · 2015-01-23T20:10:06+00:00

This place is for women and that place is for men. That is your balance. You can't expect men to balance out their speech to make women more comfortable. And the men who come here can't ask us to balance out our speech for them. It's just that most men don't care and most women do.

saffronbelle · 2015-01-24T01:43:52+00:00

OP - I hear what you're saying loud and clear. It is really disheartening to read a lot of the stuff on there about how women are nothing but "cum dumpsters" and things like that - especially since we're the girls who are trying to improve ourselves to be better girlfriends and ultimately wives - but I just try to avoid that subreddit altogether. They don't speak for all RP men or all men in general. Hopefully that's just a phase.

All in all, we're not trying to please men like that. They're trying to figure out how to sleep with as many random girls as possible and we don't sleep around. It is possible for a self-declared RP man and RPW to get together, though, if he finds her to be a unicorm (or whatever terminology they use) and she finds him to both respectful and a natural leader.

through_a_ways · 2015-01-24T06:58:44+00:00

I know a lot of blue pill women are these things, but come on, there's a lot who aren't.

"lot" is a very poorly defined amount.

The other thing is that it sounds like you have a case of "I'm special". Part of actual redpill (as opposed to redpill just discussing sex) is realizing that everything can be boiled down to rational self-interests or perceived interests. It's disillusioning because it's true, and it makes life lose some of its magic.

Part of the pleasure of having women (other than sex) is the "naivete" they carry, imo. I think it's another reason men prefer younger women, in addition to their looks. The early 20s women in my life are nowhere near as pleasant to be around as the women I had when I was a 16 year old. Smarter, maybe, but definitely less pleasant.

Limberine · 2015-01-24T10:10:43+00:00

I agree.

ialan2 · 2015-01-27T23:39:47+00:00

Word cloud out of all the comments.

homo_homini_lupus · 2015-01-23T21:29:27+00:00

I read some posts on rpw about what more can we do, to better ourselves for them ,how can I change for him so I'll be validated and rewarded

NO

Title	So...can we just have a quick discussion?
Author	Grello
Upvotes	34
Comments	72
Date	January 23, 2015 7:45 PM UTC (11 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/RedPillWomen
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/RedPillWomen/comments/2tfoo0/socan_we_just_have_a_quick_discussion/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/RedPillWomen/socan-we-just-have-a-quick-discussion.2199 https://theredarchive.com/post/2199

Comments