Boundary enforcement/power struggle

creating_my_life · 2017-02-07T00:04:43+00:00

A few thoughts come to mind. Your poor coat does not belong in the basement. Go rescue your coat. Own your coat.

Is your wife's request to not drape your ugly, dripping, wet, outdoors coat across the chair, you know, reasonable? Are you just being a dick? Perhaps the coat really is better on the coathook? Only you can answer this.

You've also learned Acta non Verba. Women are skilled ninja warriors with words. Do not play with your enemy's best weapon. Your best weapon is actions. Play on your turf, with your weapons. There were several "I told her"s in this post. Act, don't tell.

She married a beta. You were never her Alpha. She's going to shit-test the FUCK out of you, and this may not be the marriage she wants. FYI.

I sense you're doing well, but pick fights worth fighting for, not coats.

gettingmymojoback · 2017-02-06T23:52:32+00:00

Actions not words. Next time if she's disrespecting you like that, you just get up and leave. You don't say, "if you don't apologize I'm leaving" and then stay while she throws your coat. Guess what your boundary looks like at that point? Non existent.

She knows why your leaving at that point. No words are needed.

That said, here's the caveat....don't go all Rambo on every little thing you see as a boundary being crossed. Pick your battles and decide which ones are worth dying over. Resist the urge to look for every opportunity to feel disrespected while you're still in the anger stage.

Once she starts seeing you as worthy of respect just STFU can be enough to signal that she's gone too far. You're not there yet.

You're doing the right thing by improving, keep the pedal down and keep working at being better everyday. Most importantly keep a positive mood and have fun, don't turn into "I just found MRP, I'm improving and now I don't take any shit from her, despite being shit for the last 7 years".

ParadoxThatDrivesUs · 2017-02-06T23:53:31+00:00

You're not making a mountain out a molehill. Assuming you're not otherwise a slob, I'd say asking that she not scream at you and throw your coat down the stairs is a reasonable boundary to draw.

But . . . you've chosen a strategy for enforcing it that just doesn't work, as you've now discovered. The problem lurking under every attempt to enforce a boundary is the question, what if she says no? If you don't think it out in advance, it's easy to wind up in a no-win situation. You're obviously not going to divorce her over a coat. And you don't have a lot of leverage at the moment because she doesn't really respect you and so withdrawing yourself isn't much of a threat. In the long term, you have to become awesome so that withdrawing yourself really is a threat. In the short run, I think you just pick up the damn coat, move on with your life, and live to fight another day.

FireTempered · 2017-02-07T04:36:07+00:00

You really are making a butt-hurt big deal out of nothing. I'ma gonna spell it out for you.

When I lived through New England winters, I came in and out of the house to shovel snow and snow-blow. I had installed coat hooks near one of the doors, where my often wet and drippy coat could reside, while I warmed up in order to go back outside and complete the winter chores.

Now I could have put my coat on the back of the my chair at the dining room table. Let it drip there and make a mess. It also was not where it belonged, as I had installed hooks for just that purpose for keeping the house, and dining room, tidy.

Had my wife asked me to put my coat WHERE IT BELONGED, I could do that, or, if I was exhausted from shoveling snow, admitted my weakness and asked her to do it for me. However, my normal course of action would have been to never admit weakness and go move the coat as requested. It is my house too. I am proud of my house, and I don't mind making efforts to keep it nice.

Had I ignored her requests, and she threw it down the basement stairs, at that point I might have conceded my slothfulness and gone and gotten the coat and hung it up.

You are off base here OP. You're anger is about everything else. It shows up and makes you look the fool. Everything you are doing here spells butt-hurt. Take a breath and dial this all back.

My suggestion, is to go get your coat. It is really stupid to do without your own coat in the winter. Put it where it belongs. If she asks, you might say something silly like, your coat was suicidal and jumped down the stairs and you had to put it where it belongs. A smile and a nod. Best

PBRistasty · 2017-02-07T03:11:02+00:00

Go buy a new coat... Say. NOTHING.... Leave old coat where it lays its not your problem amymore... As commented above, next time she raises her voice like that just go lift

redmountainpill · 2017-02-07T00:29:18+00:00

In time, the fact that she threw your coat downstairs will not be insulting to you. It'll be so hilarious that you won't stop laughing. You'll be amused that she plays out the same old script. Her same manipulation tactic. And it will have zero effect over you. Go get the coat. Don't be a retard and go to work cold again. Focus on your mission.

And it's ok to use the goddamn hook. It doesn't make you less alpha

zeteomegaleio · 2017-02-07T03:14:23+00:00

You're an idiot for getting sucked into her bullshit over a coat on the fucking chair. If she is pissy and hounding you over that, either she has OCD or you're an unattractive faggot.

You're an even bigger idiot for making an ultimatum you can't back up... over a fucking coat.

You were experimenting with managing your frame? Then why the fuck didn't you just say "Thank you! I was just about to go to the basement to grab -something you could grab-. You're so sweet, babe!" and be on your merry way out of the room and out of her presence?

Or, just STFU if you're not able to come up with something remotely witty in the moment?

You set a boundary over something retarded. Yes, she disrespected you, but it isn't like she hit you in front of your kids or something. THAT is when you make a fucking ultimatum. Not when a woman acting like a cunt throws your jacket because you're not attractive enough yet.

And the thing is, when you do become attractive enough, she won't pull this shit. So suck it up until you are attractive enough and don't let her pull you into her frame by taking the bait and getting pissed off at her.

I just mentioned this in another thread: as soon as you engaged and played the game, you lost. Don't play in her game of being pissed off and driven by emotions, you will lose every time against someone far more experienced. You would have won this interaction if you were never affected emotionally in the first place, and you blew it.

InChargeMan · 2017-02-07T09:08:31+00:00

Told her to speak respectfully or else I'd head out for a while.

Nope

now that you got that outta your system, you will go pick up my coat and bring it back upstairs to the chair.

And she didn't....And you showed her by being cold. Damn son, straight up gangster....

A stern look and a big helping of STFU would have served you much better.

JDRoedell · 2017-02-07T13:40:02+00:00

Should have walked downstairs while chuckling, picked up the coat and left the house to undisclosed (to her)location for an undisclosed amount of time. Imagine how you would react to a child throwing things and tantrumimg. Sometimes I find my daughters tantrums funny. Wife's should be the same.

bogeyd6 · 2017-02-07T16:04:32+00:00

The simple math is not adding up.

Dropped 13 pounds of fat in 30 days time or so. Muscles are showing through after only 30 days. Already mastered A&A, AM.

Which leads us into now you are in a mexican stand off where she holds no respect for you. It reminds me of the parking lot dilemma. If you honk at me to get me out of my spot faster, we will sit here until we are both dead. The coat is yours, she disrespected it and now the answer in your mind is to wait until she gets it for you. Let's take a sanity check real quick.

It's your coat, go get your coat. There is no shame in recovering what is yours. Don't bring it up, don't be ass about it, you aren't supposed to be held hostage to her emotions. You set a boundary you didn't enforce. I mean quite frankly, you should expect a few more months of this behavior until you can show her it doesn't work anymore.

RBuddDwyer · 2017-02-08T18:54:40+00:00

Getting constantly shit-tested about my self improvement efforts especially the muscles,

She wouldn't be shit testing you if she wasn't attracted. She would just ignore you. For a woman, the opposite of love / attraction is not hate / disgust, it's indifference.

I told her "now that you got that outta your system, you will go pick up my coat and bring it back upstairs to the chair."

Good luck enforcing that demand. You completely set her up to shit all over your boundary, which she (so far) has done.

The way I see it, you have two possible reactions to boundary violations:

Behavior modification by withdraw of attention. Remember how I said the opposite of love is indifference? Cut off your attention for her. Do not let her see how this has impacted you. Go completely poker face and do (to the extent that you can) a soft-next on her. Search around in the main sub for more discussion on how to do it. I think BPP's book / 12 stages of dread also talks about how to approach positive and negative reinforcement. Just remember, negative reinforcement for her is withdraw of your attention from her.
If you really have your frame in tact (and I mean really have your inner game sorted out), start fucking with her. Treat her silly little temper tantrums for what they are, the most responsible teenager in the house. Start teasing her, fuck back with her, Amused Mastery, Agree and Amplify, whatever you do, just make it clear that you are enjoying yourself, and you find her shitty behavior completely amusing, as if she were your bratty little sister. This will end up one of two ways: she goes completely bat-shit pissed off with rage while you hold frame, enjoying the show; or she responds to the teasing and starts to pick up on the dynamic while you hold frame. Either way, she winds up in your frame.

KyfhoMyoba · 2017-03-03T00:39:06+00:00

Can't imagine using AM at this point, my unmasterful and unamusing history of betaness can't allow it this early in the journey.

Start using AM immediately, just don't verbalize it out loud.

ppzhao · 2017-02-07T00:25:05+00:00

Congrats on discovering TRP and your progress even in 1 short month. Damn that's impressive. Disclaimer: I don't know how things are when kids are involved, this is general "relationship management".

About the coat: You telling her to do something without any way to enforce it just isn't the way to go. "You will bring my coat back up" while she doesn't, just makes you look stupid. And if both of you leave the coat in the basement for long, it's only hurting you and not her, because now you're the one without a coat. For this specific case: First think of what you can do to "punish" her, such as not doing this thing you do for her that you normally do, withdrawing your your attention, or anything else you think she'd care about. If she doesn't care about anything you do or not do, then you have no leverage and she gets to do whatever she wants. Now that you know what your punishment method is (term used loosely), grab your coat and live on as normal, but continue to punish her. If she asks, tell her in a very calm voice (like you're lecturing a 5 year old) something like this (but subbing your own words): "I don't appreciate you throwing my coat into the basement. I would like you to apologize for that, which you still haven't. I also would like you to promise that you'd never do something that irrational again. If you can do both, we can move on. If you do promise but do something irrational again, then I will assume that breaking promises is just who you are, and make my future decisions based on that assumption and additional knowledge".

From there, (in my experiences), below are likely outcomes:

She complies, apologizes, promises, you hold her, kiss her on the forehead, all is well, you two move on.
She stays silent, stunned by your stoicness, not knowing how to react. You stare at her for 15-30 seconds, realize she isn't going to say anything, and you calmly say "Okay, I'll give you some time to think about it, please take your time". Walk away, continue the punishment.
She gets combative. "It all started because you didn't put the coat on the hook"; "Why should I apologize? You didn't apologize for not putting the coat where it should go"; "You always do this, you always do [insert history]". REFUSE to engage in this and re-start the argument. Calmly say "I understand" and walk away, and continue punishment. Be ready to weather all kinds of insults and derailment and everything else. You're a man, be calm, be strong. If she keeps addressing you about things, just simply remind her "you know my conditions for moving on. If you'd prefer not to move on, I understand". Do NOT engage in anything else. This whole thing like a huge game of chicken, which "fighting for frame" usually is. The only way to win the game of chicken is to make sure you have a better life without her than she does without you. This way you come out better if both parties get brave. That's something you can work on during all this - whether that's getting in better shape, developing more interesting hobbies, etc. I wouldn't recommending playing chicken too often, but a few victories early on would make you not have to use it too often afterwords.

In the future, I wouldn't make empty threats without being willing to do something to back it up. Unless you're willing to go through whatever that is, don't make those threats.

470_2_700_nm · 2017-02-07T00:57:06+00:00

So far I've dropped 13 pounds of fat,

This is a fairly high rate of fat loss. Be careful, all I've read shows that 1 lbs per week is a better and more sustainable. Also when I went on Keto I found I lost weight fast but then it came back. Might be because of being low on water at first.

constantly shit-tested about my self improvement efforts especially the muscles,

Mine said "muscular isn't what I see in you" and I think she meant "I had banked on you being soft and malleable, I'll save muscular for imagination or extra curricular."

It's been 24 hours and it's still down there. I went to work without it today.

So in her mind she is being shitty to you and is showing you that if you do X then you will suffer. I think you are showing her you are suffering.

Also as already has been mentioned, actions not words. You told her to go pick it up, she is ignoring you. Let me ask you this: If your daughter did this, would you wait for her stubborn ass to pick it off the downstairs floor? Also, without being there I can't tell if you are being a dick about leaving your coat where it is. But I will suggest you consider if this is the case.

For now just take it easy man. You are almost exactly 1 month in, with 4 kids in the house, having been a faggot for 12 years.

I am hitting the rambo alert button, where the suggestion is to fall back, do what it takes to keep the house and family in order, and work on yourself. Chill and keep going, by all reasonable measures you are still likely a little bitch with a fat ass belly and neck. But you can change. Go.

drty_pr · 2017-02-07T03:52:54+00:00

Make a joke out of it. Walk in from work tomorrow, throw your coat down the stairs and go on about your evening with a smile (this needs to be done in a truly DGAF attitude though)

The coat is such a small issue. What the coat represents is everything. By getting all butthurt about the coat, she knows she can trigger a reaction in you (your frame is weaker than hers). By throwing the coat down the stairs, you show her you aren't bothered by her bullshit. Subsequently, she will respect you more for this as well.

Methodically enforcing a boundary on coat location isn't going to be the win all. These stupid tests are going to be coming for some time. Presumably forever if she likes you. The longer you swat them, the less relevance they have each time. Most importantly, they can't matter. Less feelz and carez.

Really though, is the coat that big a deal? I personally despise coats on the chairs. Instead of throwing them down the stairs, I simply put them away. It's called owning my shit. She is my shit. The kids are my shit. Cause the coats are in my house, you guessed it, my shit.

Pro tip: Don't over think shit like this. Let it happen naturally. You'll know what natural is for you when you go through the motions like the rest of us have. Keep on keeping on man.

One last tidbit. I just got a new coat and I love that mother fucker. If she threw it down the stairs, I'd try my hardest to throw her down the stairs faster, so the coat would have something to land on.

BobbyPeru · 2017-02-07T06:38:48+00:00

Swallowed the Red Pill on Jan 4, 2017

Swallowing the pill is a process, not an event

I stayed calm and did some experimenting with frame management. Told her to speak respectfully or else I'd head out for a while.

Nope. Never appear butthurt. I know you think you didn't, but trust me you did, and she saw it. Get the coat, and don't bring it up ever again. She will ~~likely~~ try to bait you into a fight abou it - don't fall for it. When she does bait you laugh it off. (AM) and STFU.

SampsonBrass · 2017-02-07T11:55:16+00:00

You better get back out into that snowy wood. You've got miles and miles to go before you sleep.. er....learn to enforce a boundary and stop picking fights you can't win.

Did you gold your breath while typing this too? /u/firetempered and /u/creatingmy life have given you something to work with. So get to work.

man_in_the_world · 2017-02-07T12:28:26+00:00

Told her to speak respectfully or else I'd head out for a while.

Telling someone to respect you will always cause them to respect you even less; acta, non verba.

stonepimpletilists · 2017-02-07T14:22:35+00:00

here

Break it down, are you seeing insolence or contempt?

prarrott · 2017-02-09T02:29:35+00:00

Just as an FYI Im 6 mos in and just barely starting to be able to set reasonable boundries. Dont get me wrong, I've tried intermittently for the past 6 mos, but to no success. Only digression, really. Decided to chill for a bit and just now starting to develop the frame to set boundaries. And lo and behold, now that I understand Woman and all her fickle bullshit, I'm in need of fewer real boundries than before.

nooomaam · 2017-02-10T10:17:05+00:00

/u/alfalfadaddy - I would move the fucking coat hooks to where you want them, install some tile and a bench, and make a nice little entry way - the way YOU want it.

Don't ask - just start working on it. The key here is to plan it, finish it, and then use it.

The reaction to her pitching a fit is simply to call out the behavior - "Oh so we're throwing things now? Good to know."

As for your fucking coat... Go get it and put it back where it belongs - on your damn chair.

Aswad44 · 2017-02-14T13:09:41+00:00

Today it's a great day... why don't you buy a new coat, that one you like? Obiously, you spent Valentine's gift in your brand new coat.!! She will freak out!!!

Floaty_McBoatface · 2017-02-07T08:28:31+00:00

Dude, boundaries are about YOU, not her.

"Simply stated, a boundary is an action you either take or refuse to take, whether you communicate it or not. For example, screening your calls before you answer them is an action you take. So, it is a boundary. If instead, you tried to get other people to stop calling you, that would not be a boundary. Boundaries are about controlling what you do; they are not about controlling other people’s behavior."

https://coachjackito.com/blog/boundaries-in-marriage-relationships/

Title	Boundary enforcement/power struggle
Author	alfalfadaddy
Upvotes	4
Comments	36
Date	February 6, 2017 11:31 PM UTC (9 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/askMRP
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/askMRP/comments/5shsw4/boundary_enforcementpower_struggle/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/askMRP/boundary-enforcementpower-struggle.206547 https://theredarchive.com/post/206547

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